Canopus Grass Valley ADVC-3000 or Matrox MXO2 LE

[plehoediv]

Hi,

I bought a Blaupunkt RTV 936 HiFi and a "Video Grabber". I simply hooked up the VCR to the "Grabber" via S-Video cable and started recording to the SD Card. So far, so good. The quality is alright I would say.

However, I did a bit of research on YT and saw that people use these Analog to Digital converters and I am not if sure I should get one or not. The ADVC-3000 is $360 and the Matrox $205. What do you think?

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Is my thread even online? LOL...

[Alwyn]

Be patient.

[lordsmurf]

I did a bit of research on YT

That never ends well. You get misled to use $5 crap.

HThe ADVC-3000 is $360 and the Matrox $205. What do you think?

You're asking a loaded question, and don't even realize it yet.

For starters...
What OS?
What sources?
What else is in the workflow?

I bought a Video Grabber

Those "grabber" devices are the aforementioned $5 crap.

and started recording to the SD Card.

Yikes. That results in awful quality. Post a sample clip if you dare.

[plehoediv]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply...

I did a bit of research on YT

That never ends well. You get misled to use $5 crap.

My Grabber was more like $110 bucks... : )

The ADVC-3000 is $360 and the Matrox $205. What do you think?

You're asking a loaded question, and don't even realize it yet.

How come?

For starters...What OS? What sources? What else is in the workflow?

I can use Windows 11 Pro or Mac. I bought a few VCR's. Unfortunately, I did not know about TBC yes, so mine do not have that. Blaupunkt RTV 936 (From what I read the same as the Panasonic NV-HS1000) and a Panasonic NV-HS900. Both are S-VHS machines.
Workflow? I guess none really. I will drag the created mp4 files into Davinci Resolve Studio and just edit them a little bit. After that I originally planned on burning them to BluRay but the whole "authoring" thing is to much work, so I am just going to put the videos on a stick and people can watch them on their TV.

Those "grabber" devices are the aforementioned $5 crap.

Like I said, mine was more like 110 bucks. : )

and started recording to the SD Card.

Yikes. That results in awful quality. Post a sample clip if you dare.

Sure, let me upload a clip. Once it is uploaded, I will post the link...

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Here is the link:

https://youtu.be/ezhpWZbdODk

[lollo]

My Grabber was more like $110 bucks... : )

Still a 5$ crap (lordsmurf dixit).

We already discussed about that: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/404647-Testing-a-1100-video-tape-capture-device

I will drag the created mp4 files into Davinci Resolve Studio

If a restoration is planned, it's an additional reason to capture lossless interlaced YUV 4:2:2

P.S. your link is private

[plehoediv]

My Grabber was more like $110 bucks... : )

Still a 5$ crap (lordsmurf dixit).

OK...

We already discussed about that: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/404647-Testing-a-1100-video-tape-capture-device

Thanks for the link...

I will drag the created mp4 files into Davinci Resolve Studio

If a restoration is planned, it's an additional reason to capture lossless interlaced YUV 4:2:2

And how do I do that? Maybe with one of those items I have listed in my OP?

P.S. your link is private

Just fixed that. Thanks.

[lollo]

So far, so good. The quality is alright I would say.

I do not wish to criticize your work, just my not (so good) impressions:

resolution/details





edges



motion



crushed and clipped levels



from green



to purple



Watching the video running instead of fixed images is even worst.

Try to upload here on the forum the original capture, maybe is slightly better.

And how do I do that?

There are many threads on the forum about capturing...

[plehoediv]

So far, so good. The quality is alright I would say.

I do not wish to criticize your work, just my not (so good) impressions:

resolution/details


[Attachment 69823 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 69824 - Click to enlarge]

edges


[Attachment 69829 - Click to enlarge]

motion


[Attachment 69825 - Click to enlarge]

crushed and clipped levels


[Attachment 69826 - Click to enlarge]

from green


[Attachment 69827 - Click to enlarge]

to purple


[Attachment 69828 - Click to enlarge]

Watching the video running instead of fixed images is even worst.

Try to upload here on the forum the original capture, maybe is slightly better.

And how do I do that?

There are many threads on the forum about capturing...

Criticize all you want, does not bother me, ha ha.

I am sure there is plenty "wrong" with the footage from the perspective of a professional, but from my point of view its "alright". However, that does not mean that I do not agree with the fact that there are better ways of importing VHS to PC, DVD or what not. The only question is: To what price? Time, money, frustration and so on. Might be worth it, might not be worth it. It depends.

But as you can see, I asked one question, got a few answers, and none are what are actually asked.

"However, I did a bit of research on YT and saw that people use these Analog to Digital converters and I am not if sure I should get one or not. The ADVC-3000 is $360 and the Matrox $205. What do you think?"

I know that those devices import a better quality, I just dont know if those are any god and if that is a good price or not.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

[QUOTE=lollo;2684310]

There are many threads on the forum about capturing...

I know there are, but that is the problem. The existing threads are [mostly] people going back and forth about a certain subject, and EVERYONE seems to have a different opinion about it. Now, someone like me, has to go through that thread, consisting of 1000 pages, trying to find an answer. Why? Instead of having a thread with 1000 pages made into a sticky, they should sticky the "conclusion" or "answer" to either the Top of that thread or make it a new thread.

But whom am I telling. Pretty much all internet forums are like that.

I understand that saying something like this, especially as a new member, is most likely not going to sit well with "seasoned" members, but that is just my opinion. I also understand that people will say this is not possible because there are too many options. Maybe, but a "summed up" version should be possible.

Anyhow thanks for the input.

[davexnet]

Post a small clip direct from your capture device. You can trim it in Avidemux.

Most users from what I can see use the Canopus devices to capture analog and output DV/Firewire to the PC.
You need a Firewire input on the PC

Do you have one? How do you use it?

[lollo]

Maybe, but a "summed up" version should be possible

The key factor for a good capture is the condition of the tapes.

Then comes the most important element, the player; it should be a high end S-VHS VCR with a lineTBC, expensive (or as lower quality alternative a very good VCR with a specific DVD-R recorder in pass-through mode, less expensive).

Then the capture card, one of the recommended USB devices (ATI 600 USB, Pinnacle 710 USB, Hauppauge USB-Live 2, I-O DATA GV-USB 2, few others), not expensive or a high end capture card difficult to find and very expensive (BrightEye 75 or Canopus RX just to mention a few).

You may need a frameTBC if the condition of the tapes requires it, very expensive.

Capture to lossless YUV 4:2:2, restore, and eventually encode to whatever you prefer.

As good alternative, capture HDMI from specific DVD-R recorders, playing the role of the capture card, not expensive.

edit:

However, I did a bit of research on YT and saw that people use these Analog to Digital converters and I am not if sure I should get one or not. The ADVC-3000 is $360 and the Matrox $205. What do you think

A DV capture flow is leading to lower quality, especially if you plan a restoration. But it can be acceptable. No need for a ADVC-3000, ADVC-55 is enough, much less expensive.

[lollo]

Post a small clip direct from your capture device. You can trim it in Avidemux.

Yes, I asked for that, for sure YT added problems if not used properly

[plehoediv]

Post a small clip direct from your capture device. You can trim it in Avidemux.

Most users from what I can see use the Canopus devices to capture analog and output DV/Firewire to the PC.
You need a Firewire input on the PC

Do you have one? How do you use it?

Hi,

I am not sure how to upload a video directly to this site, but I will find out and then post a video. Good to hear that a lot of people use Canopus, because of those people should be able to tell me, if the Canopus Grass Valley ADVC-3000 is a good device and $399 is an appropriate price for it.

I have a HP Spectre x360 laptop and I am pretty sure it does NOT have a firewire input. I also own a MacBook Pro M1 Max. I believe that one has a firewire IN.

Thanks.

EDIT: Just noticed the upload button, ha ha.

[lordsmurf]

The video vibrates left/right.

That bad capture method (OBS to H.264, etc), no TBC whatsoever, the cheap $5 (sold for $110) capture card, has actually made the quality worse than what existed on the VHS tape. It should look better, not worse.

It's pretty lousy in a small Youtube window. Viewed full screen on a large computer monitor, it looks like garbage. Anything larger, like a typical modern TV, and it's outright unviewable schlock.

[plehoediv]

Here is the file uploaded directly to this site...

Thanks.

[davexnet]

Here is the file uploaded directly to this site...

Thanks.

You can do better than that. The best SD capture would normally be for PAL , 25 fps interlaced and the use of a lossless codec.
Yours seems to be 49.7 fps, perhaps it's been created like this in the hardware, de-interlacing looks poor, it's sub-optimum to be honest

[plehoediv]

The video vibrates left/right.

That bad capture method (OBS to H.264, etc), no TBC whatsoever, the cheap $5 (sold for $110) capture card, has actually made the quality worse than what existed on the VHS tape. It should look better, not worse.

You guys can't get over the fact that I paid over $100 bucks for something that is worth $5, ha ha. Noted!
I agree. Making something look worse is not good!

It's pretty lousy in a small Youtube window. Viewed full screen on a large computer monitor, it looks like garbage. Anything larger, like a typical modern TV, and it's outright unviewable schlock.

Well, I think you are a bit over exaggerating. I know it's bad, but I just mirrored my laptop onto a 77-inch OLED and it was watchable. I am ripping these tapes for friends and family which have not seen this footage for decades. They could care less that it could look better. That doesn't mean I am not going to try to make it better. just saying. In case you are wondering if this is for a "client" or something like that.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Here is the file uploaded directly to this site...

Thanks.

You can do better than that. The best SD capture would normally be for PAL , 25 fps interlaced and the use of a lossless codec.
Yours seems to be 49.7 fps, perhaps it's been created like this in the hardware, de-interlacing looks poor, it's sub-optimum to be honest

Roger that. I think the next think I am going to do is sell my non TBC VCR's and get one that has TBC. Then get a "real" capture card and hook that up to my MacBook and Davinci Resolve.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Maybe, but a "summed up" version should be possible

The key factor for a good capture is the condition of the tapes.

Most tapes are in good shape, I would say.

Then comes the most important element, the player; it should be a high end S-VHS VCR with a lineTBC, expensive (or as lower quality alternative a very good VCR with a specific DVD-R recorder in pass-through mode, less expensive).

The VCR's I have are considered high end. S-VHS but no TBC. Too bad. Just bought two Blaupunkt RTV936 and one Panasonic NV-HS900 because I thought they will do the job. I am sure they would be "enough" if I use them with all the other stuff you are mentioning...

Then the capture card, one of the recommended USB devices (ATI 600 USB, Pinnacle 710 USB, Hauppauge USB-Live 2, I-O DATA GV-USB 2, few others), not expensive or a high end capture card difficult to find and very expensive (BrightEye 75 or Canopus RX just to mention a few).

Thanks for naming a few. I was looking at one from Black Magic. I am sure they are good as well.

You may need a frameTBC if the condition of the tapes requires it, very expensive.

You mean IF the tapes are in bad shape? So this frame TBC is different than the TBC's in VCR's??? You mean something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275641845770

Capture to lossless YUV 4:2:2, restore, and eventually encode to whatever you prefer.

Capture means using one of those cards you mentioned in combination with a line TBC.
Restore means in Software?
Encode means exporting from Software.
I guess I got it. : )

As good alternative, capture HDMI from specific DVD-R recorders, playing the role of the capture card, not expensive.

This is the part where you lost me. I have a friends Panasonic DMR-EX95V sitting here. It has VHS, HDD, DVD and SD card build in. So are you saying I should use this thing to burn to DVD and then rip from the DVD's?


edit:

However, I did a bit of research on YT and saw that people use these Analog to Digital converters and I am not if sure I should get one or not. The ADVC-3000 is $360 and the Matrox $205. What do you think

A DV capture flow is leading to lower quality, especially if you plan a restoration. But it can be acceptable. No need for a ADVC-3000, ADVC-55 is enough, much less expensive.

I saw that ADVC-55's go for $130 - $170. That is not that much cheaper. Besides, I thought I would get a great deal with the ADVC-3000 after seeing that they used to be 3000 new, if you know what I mean.

Thanks!

[Bwaak]

It does not look THAT bad. Yes, it is wobbly, which can be clearly seen on the first shot with vertical lines, but people usually expect this from VHS. In fact, there is a whole industry of pseudo-VHS filters that can make a pristine digital video look so bad as VHS had never looked. It is a fashionable trend.

Levels are not exaggerated too much, and motion looks mostly ok.

For 625/50 region, capturing a movie at 25 fps progscan is fine. Still, if you want to capture true video, not a movie, you will need either 25 fps interlaced, or 50 fps progscan, can your box do that? The description says that it captures in 720x480, does it use this frame size for 625/50 as well? In this case you lose vertical resolution. Can it save in 720? Also, since it re-scales, it must deinterlace first, so I suppose it does not preserve interlacing. I hope you can get 50p from it.

Another issue is that it saves it in a widescreen file, which is surprizing, I would think that by default SD video would be saved as 4:3.

I have a similar box, without a screen, and it has certain traits that some may accept and other may consider a deal-breaker, like:

• it captures into HD only, it does not preserve the original resolution.
• it captures into exact 50p or 60p, which is not an issue for capturing 625/50, but is not perfect for 525/60, which is actually 59.94.
• it allows to select 4:3 or 16:9 input aspect ratio, but stores in 16:9 either way, so 4:3 is pillarboxed just like yours.
• it uses "computer" levels instead of "video" levels, so when uploaded to Youtube the video looks blown out with exaggerated contrast without correction.

12voltvids swears by his Cloner Alliance box, which, as he claims, can do true 59.94 fps for NTSC region, records correct levels and stores 4:3 as true 4:3, that is 960x720 or 1440x1080 with PAR 1. This box is only $20 more than yours, so maybe you want to return yours and give the cloner box a try. I haven't tried it, too expensive to me.

If you want to capture into DV, then a Digital 8 or MiniDV camcorder with analog-to-digital passthrough would be an order of magnitude cheaper and easier to find than a Canopus box.

[lollo]

I was looking at one from Black Magic. I am sure they are good as well.

I used Black Magic cards only on Digital Betacam. However, I helped a friend at digitalfaq with one of his Analog SD capture and experience many of the famous "black frames". IMO, better to avoid them.

So this frame TBC is different than the TBC's in VCR's???

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12537-tbc-how.html

This is the part where you lost me. I have a friends Panasonic DMR-EX95V sitting here. It has VHS, HDD, DVD and SD card build in. So are you saying I should use this thing to burn to DVD and then rip from the DVD's?

No, capture the digital stream from the HDMI output: https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/47572-tutorial-hochwertiges-..._x_tr_pto=wapp

[oln]

You can also capture the direct output from the analog outputs of it (preferably s-video or component) if you don't want to go through the hassle of getting a HDMI splitter and getting that stuff to work, the difference in quality from capturing the HDMI output and s-video/component should be pretty small all else equal. The general idea is to send the video from the vcr via the dvd/hdd recorder as it has a really good video decoder that can stabilize the video coming from a vcr really well and connect the capture device directly to one of the outputs and capture that. (Not actually recording anything to the dvd/hdd)

The Blaupunkt RTV 936 HiFi is basically the same as the NV-HS800 from what I can see. The RTV936/NV-HS800 shares most of the guts with the NV-HS1000 but lacks the TBC function (and some editing functionality that's not really relevant for playback). Passing the signal via the dvd/hdd/vhs can pretty much do as good of a job of stabilization as the built-in TBC in the NV-HS1000 though.

[plehoediv]

It does not look THAT bad. Yes, it is wobbly, which can be clearly seen on the first shot with vertical lines,..

Thanks for saying that it is not that bad, ha ha.

...but people usually expect this from VHS. In fact, there is a whole industry of pseudo-VHS filters that can make a pristine digital video look so bad as VHS had never looked. It is a fashionable trend.

Thats what I meant. People are expecting this type of quality and they forget about it really fast, once they see themselves 30 years younger...

Levels are not exaggerated too much, and motion looks mostly ok.

For 625/50 region, capturing a movie at 25 fps progscan is fine. Still, if you want to capture true video, not a movie, you will need either 25 fps interlaced, or 50 fps progscan, can your box do that?

Good question! Here is a link to the actual box I have. The one I talked about earlier just looks like mine. I remember ready somewhere that those boxes are pretty much all the same, just a different name. https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07X7633VR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The description says that it captures in 720x480, does it use this frame size for 625/50 as well? In this case you lose vertical resolution. Can it save in 720? Also, since it re-scales, it must deinterlace first, so I suppose it does not preserve interlacing. I hope you can get 50p from it.

I have to apologize. Like I said, the box I listed first is not my box. I did not think that we are going to discuss the box because I thought it was doing a great job, ha ha. That said, my box does not have that many settings. Language, Date and Time, Watermark, Signal Detection (it stops recording when there is no signal detected), Auto-Stopp Function (Timer Function), Source (AV or S-Video) and last but not least: Video Quality. It says 640x480 (4:3) or Auto-Detection. But no matter what I try, all videos are 720x576!!! The Frame rate varies from 49,87 to 50,02. However, I have seen 25,something as well!?

I tried the S-Video cable on 640x480 and Auto,and the RCA (Whie, Red, Yellow) cable on 640x480 and Auto, but its always 720x576!? I guess this really is a crappy $5 dollar machine, ha ha.

Another issue is that it saves it in a widescreen file, which is surprizing, I would think that by default SD video would be saved as 4:3.

Like I said, no matter what I do, it will not save in 4:3. Does this mean the box is making the video worse by saving it in 16:9?

I have a similar box, without a screen, and it has certain traits that some may accept and other may consider a deal-breaker, like:

• it captures into HD only, it does not preserve the original resolution.
• it captures into exact 50p or 60p, which is not an issue for capturing 625/50, but is not perfect for 525/60, which is actually 59.94.
• it allows to select 4:3 or 16:9 input aspect ratio, but stores in 16:9 either way, so 4:3 is pillarboxed just like yours.
• it uses "computer" levels instead of "video" levels, so when uploaded to Youtube the video looks blown out with exaggerated contrast without correction.

12voltvids swears by his Cloner Alliance box, which, as he claims, can do true 59.94 fps for NTSC region, records correct levels and stores 4:3 as true 4:3, that is 960x720 or 1440x1080 with PAR 1. This box is only $20 more than yours, so maybe you want to return yours and give the cloner box a try. I haven't tried it, too expensive to me.

Interesting that your box does the same thing when it comes to aspect ratio. I have seen the Alliance Box but I am not sure what the point is? I thought I need to stay away from these boxes and get a capture card!?

If you want to capture into DV, then a Digital 8 or MiniDV camcorder with analog-to-digital passthrough would be an order of magnitude cheaper and easier to find than a Canopus box.

What do you mean by that? Capture "into" means to a Camcorder? I have one. Sony DCR-PC2E PAL MiniDV. You know what? I think you mean that I connect my Camcorder to my PC using a FireWire cable and then connect the VCR to the Camcorder and use the Camcorder as capture card? Something like that, I guess...

Hey, thanks a lot...

[plehoediv]

[QUOTE=lollo;2684343]

I was looking at one from Black Magic. I am sure they are good as well.

I used Black Magic cards only on Digital Betacam. However, I helped a friend at digitalfaq with one of his Analog SD capture and experience many of the famous "black frames". IMO, better to avoid them.

Interesting...

So this frame TBC is different than the TBC's in VCR's???

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12537-tbc-how.html

I will take a look.

This is the part where you lost me. I have a friends Panasonic DMR-EX95V sitting here. It has VHS, HDD, DVD and SD card build in. So are you saying I should use this thing to burn to DVD and then rip from the DVD's?

No, capture the digital stream from the HDMI output: https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/47572-tutorial-hochwertiges-..._x_tr_pto=wapp

I see. Damn, that looks complicated. But what if I do not want to get all those extra cable and machines and do all that hooking up... How good or bad is it actually to use a VCR to DVD recorder. Shouldn't they have figured some of the quality issue out and build in a solution? I mean, why make a VRC/DVD combo if it sucks?

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

You can also capture the direct output from the analog outputs of it (preferably s-video or component) if you don't want to go through the hassle of getting a HDMI splitter and getting that stuff to work, the difference in quality from capturing the HDMI output and s-video/component should be pretty small all else equal. The general idea is to send the video from the vcr via the dvd/hdd recorder as it has a really good video decoder that can stabilize the video coming from a vcr really well and connect the capture device directly to one of the outputs and capture that. (Not actually recording anything to the dvd/hdd)

I was just saying that all that hooking up and getting this and that seems counterproductive. Kind of. That said, I believe I understand what you mean, but there are to many this and that and it involved that I got lost to which machine is supposed to be hooked up to what?! Is there a change you can rephrase that and use the actual name of the machine i.e COMBO machine HDMI out to HMDI IN and so on... Would appreciate that!

The Blaupunkt RTV 936 HiFi is basically the same as the NV-HS800 from what I can see. The RTV936/NV-HS800 shares most of the guts with the NV-HS1000 but lacks the TBC function (and some editing functionality that's not really relevant for playback). Passing the signal via the dvd/hdd/vhs can pretty much do as good of a job of stabilization as the built-in TBC in the NV-HS1000 though.

Good to know. Just need to figure out how to connect what to what, ha ha.

Thank you.

[lollo]

I mean, why make a VRC/DVD combo if it sucks

Capturing in mpeg2 (DVD) with a good machine (JVC with LSI videochip, rare) is not that bad, but lower quality than recommended flow. An example here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12740-current-capture-device-3.html#post87198

And again, for further restoration a compressed format is not ideal.

[Bwaak]

Video Quality. It says 640x480 (4:3) or Auto-Detection. But no matter what I try, all videos are 720x576!!!

This is the correct frame size for digitized 625/50 ("PAL"/"SECAM").

Interesting that your box does the same thing when it comes to aspect ratio. I have seen the Alliance Box but I am not sure what the point is? I thought I need to stay away from these boxes and get a capture card!?

It is up to you. Depending on what you want and how much money and effort you want to spend. How do you like this, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noLN3a10zCY

If you want to capture into DV, then a Digital 8 or MiniDV camcorder with analog-to-digital passthrough would be an order of magnitude cheaper and easier to find than a Canopus box.

What do you mean by that? Capture "into" means to a Camcorder? I have one. Sony DCR-PC2E PAL MiniDV. You know what? I think you mean that I connect my Camcorder to my PC using a FireWire cable and then connect the VCR to the Camcorder and use the Camcorder as capture card? Something like that, I guess...

I suggest reading the operating manual from the ADVC3000. It outputs either DV over Firewire, or uncompressed over SD-SDI. Simpler ADVC-55 outputs DV over Firewire only. Do you have Firewire port in your computer, or can you buy a Firewire expansion card (about $15)?

If you want to convert your analog video to DV, then using a camcorder with analog-to-digital passthrough would be much cheaper. You feed your analog video to a camcorder, and get DV video out of it. No need to record tape, you just use the camcorder as an analog-to-digital converter. Actually, this is the route I suggest: it is bulletproof and gives decent quality.

[plehoediv]

I mean, why make a VRC/DVD combo if it sucks

Capturing in mpeg2 (DVD) with a good machine (JVC with LSI videochip, rare) is not that bad, but lower quality than recommended flow. An example here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12740-current-capture-device-3.html#post87198

And again, for further restoration a compressed format is not ideal.

Thanks for the input...