tsMuxeR and 3D video

[seplant]

Should tsMuxeR be able to preserve 3D when muxing 3D video files? I tried adding a subtitle track to a ripped 3D blu-ray, and the result was not in 3D. I know the original file is 3D because I can build a blu-ray structure, burn it to a disc, and it plays in 3D on my blu-ray player.

[Ennio]

"Preserve 3D" for subtitles is a bit of a short-cut. This is how it works. On a well-authored 3DBD, each 3D subtitle stream is a regular "2D" PGS stream, which has a so-called "3D-plane" assigned to it. The plane carries data, from which a 3D player can create the 2nd subtitle images with proper offsets for 3D viewing. There can be 32 planes and they are muxed in the MVC stream. Key thing is, you have to figure out what plane (number) fits the most to your sub. Which can be done, but it will take some work.

Workflow in short: Demux 3DBD into elementary streams (tsMuxer). Extract 3D-planes from MVC (BD3D2MK3D tool). Run "Verify 3D-planes compatibilty" (BD3D2MK3D tool) against your subtitle (which must be XML/PNG format) to determine best fitting plane number. Assign that number to your subtitle (PGS format) in tsMuxer.

Note that there are a lot of badly authored 3D discs out there with missing/empty planes. The native 3D subtitle on your disc plays properly, so you're probably ok here.
Of course you could try & assign the same 3D-plane number of a working 3D sub that's already on disc. I only do this when my home-brew SUP is derived (timings & sizes) from a native PGS stream.
A non-native SUP can have properties that wouldn't 100% add up to any 3D-plane's data. So a "perfect match" is not guaranteed.

[seplant]

"Preserve 3D" for subtitles is a bit of a short-cut. This is how it works. On a well-authored 3DBD, each 3D subtitle stream is a regular "2D" PGS stream, which has a so-called "3D-plane" assigned to it. The plane carries data, from which a 3D player can create the 2nd subtitle images with proper offsets for 3D viewing. There can be 32 planes and they are muxed in the MVC stream. Key thing is, you have to figure out what plane (number) fits the most to your sub. Which can be done, but it will take some work.

Workflow in short: Demux 3DBD into elementary streams (tsMuxer). Extract 3D-planes from MVC (BD3D2MK3D tool). Run "Verify 3D-planes compatibilty" (BD3D2MK3D tool) against your subtitle (which must be XML/PNG format) to determine best fitting plane number. Assign that number to your subtitle (PGS format) in tsMuxer.

Note that there are a lot of badly authored 3D discs out there with missing/empty planes. The native 3D subtitle on your disc plays properly, so you're probably ok here.
Of course you could try & assign the same 3D-plane number of a working 3D sub that's already on disc. I only do this when my home-brew SUP is derived (timings & sizes) from a native PGS stream.
A non-native SUP can have properties that wouldn't 100% add up to any 3D-plane's data. So a "perfect match" is not guaranteed.

Thanks for that explanation. I'll need that info when I figure out how to preserve the 3D of my video. Right now, the video file produced by tsMuxeR is not coming out in 3D. Is there anything special I need to do for preserving the 3D in video files run through tsMuxeR?

[El Heggunte]

WHAT version of TSmuxer you're using
Depending on the answer, reporting the issue on GitHub might help.

[seplant]

WHAT version of TSmuxer you're using
Depending on the answer, reporting the issue on GitHub might help.

Version 2.6.12. I was just wondering if others are muxing 3D without issues and if I need to change any settings.

[Ennio]

You can use latest nightly builds.

Right now, the video file produced by tsMuxeR is not coming out in 3D.

Are you letting tsMuxer output one file? I doubt if it's possible to mux MVC 3D into a working standalone (M2)TS. Maybe player-dependent. Anyways, you'll loose the natively authored 3D depth of subtitles. For which the 3D-Plane assignment is stored in the .mpls file.

For 3D I always set output to Blu-ray.
Set "Insert SEI and VUI data if absent" for both MVC and AVC. Also, long time ago I learnt on a forum to uncheck "Continually insert SPS/PPS" for both streams. This works, but for reasons I still don't understand. Maybe somebody more knowledgable could explain.
Blu-ray tab: set 45 kHz clock value for "Start mux time" at 524250 (timestamp 0:00:11.650). This value is important for BD output.

[seplant]

Thanks for all your advice. I'm now able to add subtitles to my 3D blu-ray. Is there any way to get tsMuxeR to flag the subtitles as forced?

Alternatively, I see where BD Rebuilder has an option for alternate forced subtitles, but it requires SupTitle, which I can't find anywhere.

[Ennio]

Is there any way to get tsMuxeR to flag the subtitles as forced?

AFAIK, tsMuxer can't set a PGS stream as forced. You can flag subs as such individually (or all) with Subtitle Edit's "SUP editor". Go File --> Import --> Blu-ray (.sup) subtitle file for edit. Once SUP opened, select the desired lines and check the "Forced" checkbox. Don't forget to "Save as". Mux the result with tsMuxer, maybe your player will honour these flags.

[r0lZ]

That's correct. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the BD standard to flag an entire subtitle stream as forced, but individual subtitles within a stream can be flagged so. Anyway, you will have to enable the subtitle stream manually at playback time. So, if your stream contains only forced subs, I don't think that flagging them all as forced will help.

[Ennio]

You can of course set such a stream as "Default" in tsMuxer. It will play automatically, but it wouldn't be exactly "forced" authoring-wise. Within the settings there is an option "Forced only" you can check. I don't know what this does exactly.
IME mediaplayers react differently on forced subs and for BD/mkv. Where language settings, even for GUI, can affect behaviour. I tried, it became a mess and I've long decided to forget about the forced subs and just create two streams for each language. "Full" and "forced only". No flags. There's indeed a reason the remote has a subtitle button.

[seplant]

Thank you for all the replies. I am now able to create a blu-ray with my own forced subtitles. However, I need to be able to have the subtitles displayed higher up on the screen instead of in the lower gray bar of my 2.35:1 video. My blu-ray player allows for adjusting subtitle positions, but I would have to go into the player's settings menu every time I try to watch this blu-ray.
tsMuxeR has an option under the Subtitles tab for adjusting the vertical position of the subtitles, but there must be a bug because no matter what value I enter, the subtitles are always in the same position. I'm going to start another thread about adjusting the vertical positioning of subtitles.

[r0lZ]

You can use BDSup2Sub to adjust the position of all subtitles. Use Edit -> Move all captions. But take care. AFAIK, if you define a non-zero Y offset, the subtitles appearing in the top of the screen will be moved as well. You may have to fix their position manually.

Also, remember that the java version of BDSup2Sub has an important bug. When you open a subtitle stream, be sure to tick the Change frame rate option, and put the same correct frame rate value in the two fields (FPS Source and FPS Target).

[Ennio]

Use Edit -> Move all captions. But take care. AFAIK, if you define a non-zero Y offset, the subtitles appearing in the top of the screen will be moved as well. You may have to fix their position manually.

FYI in BDSup2Sub (JAVA version Enhanced 0.0.9) at the "Move all captions" window, when you set "move outside bounds" the value you set at "Offset Y" will be honoured from the "bottom up", but also from "top down" (for subtitles in the upper half of the screen). Very handy.

With 3D material you want to be careful. Moving subtitles can introduce interference with video objects.

[EDIT]

tsMuxeR has an option under the Subtitles tab for adjusting the vertical position of the subtitles, but there must be a bug because no matter what value I enter, the subtitles are always in the same position. I'm going to start another thread about adjusting the vertical positioning of subtitles.

Weird. Works here. Can you expain your workflow and didn't you forget to "save as" ?

[r0lZ]

FYI in BDSup2Sub (JAVA version Enhanced 0.0.9) at the "Move all captions" window, when you set "move outside bounds" the value you set at "Offset Y" will be honoured from the "bottom up", but also from "top down" (for subtitles in the upper half of the screen). Very handy.

I did not know that. Thanks !

[Ennio]

tsMuxeR has an option under the Subtitles tab for adjusting the vertical position of the subtitles, but there must be a bug because no matter what value I enter, the subtitles are always in the same position. I'm going to start another thread about adjusting the vertical positioning of subtitles.

@seplant

My apologies. My earlier reaction on your quote doesn't make sense at all. I've probably quickly misread tsMuxer for Subtitle Edit. The settings you mention are for tsMuxer's build-in srt to SUP converter. The bottom offset has no effect on already imported SUP.
I hope I haven't send you into the woods already. Sorry for my braindead moment!