HELP!! BFF or TFF WHEN RIPPING DVD

[Johnnysh]

Hello

so ideally want to rip all my DVDs to ISO or DVD 1:1 folder structure for best quality

But sadly have a stack load of DVDs that when ripped to PC or more so on my Zidoo UHD3000 play blury as if frame rate is wrong !!

But its actually the TFF & BFF order that is causing the issues

Now whats strange is that I have read on the forum, that the standard for commercial DVD is TFF, yet a few I have are BFF

Most of may DVDS playback smooth once ripped to 1:1

sadly there are a few that are commercially bought but been mastered wrong i.e. BFF


which when ripped play back awful,

1) why would companies when releasing box sets of DVD do this ??

2) I even have season 1&2 in TFF and season 3&4 in BFF.... crazy what these so called experts get up to when mastering and releasing box sets of DVDS

3) I wonder if these companies do this for protection so that when you rip it plays back blury ??



ok so I know the problem ??

1) sadly its clear I can not do a 1:1 rip of the DVD as the BFF is wrong !!

2) I guess the only way is to split the DVD chapters and rip at the same time swap the BFF to TFF

3) can this be done lossless with no loss in audio or video as dvd quality poor at the best of times

4) can makeMKV do this ?? if so are there any special settings ??

5) if MKV can not do this what is the best program, to do this in a fully lossles format ?? handbrake ??


6) I dislike the people that don't know how to master interlaced DVDs as it creates so much extra unnecessary work ?



really appreciate any help and advice as to ripping the DVDs so the play back in a fluid correct manor


Thank you in advance for any help

regards




Here is the original DVD when ripped plays back blury

General
Complete name : U:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_04_1.VOB
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 898 MiB
Duration : 12 min 40 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 9 904 kb/s

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings : BVOP
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : Variable
Format settings, picture structure : Field
Duration : 12 min 40 s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 9 515 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 8 000 kb/s
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 25.000 FPS
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.918
Time code of first frame : 09:59:58:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
GOP, Open/Closed : Open
Stream size : 863 MiB (96%)
Color primaries : BT.601 PAL
Transfer characteristics : BT.470 System B/G
Matrix coefficients : BT.470 System B/G

Audio
ID : 189 (0xBD)-128 (0x80)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Commercial name : Dolby Digital
Muxing mode : DVD-Video
Duration : 12 min 40 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : 8 ms
Stream size : 17.4 MiB (2%)
Service kind : Complete Main

Menu





Here is a bit of the DVD that I ripped in winxdvd ripper with interlaced selected to mpeg4 that plays back smoother, but quality does not seem as good as orginal dvd

i notice thats its progressive, is that the conversion that makes the playback smoother over the original DVD ??


General
Complete name : C:\Users\Administrator\Desktop\DVDVolume_Title4.mp 4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom (isom/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size : 64.2 MiB
Duration : 3 min 13 s
Overall bit rate : 2 792 kb/s
Movie name : DVDVolume_Title4
Writing application : WinXDVD-"Digiarty DVD Engine v2017"

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Baseline@L3.1
Format settings : 1 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, Reference frames : 1 frame
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 3 min 13 s
Bit rate : 2 529 kb/s
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 540 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.260
Stream size : 58.2 MiB (91%)
Color range : Limited
Codec configuration box : avcC

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID : mp4a-40-2
Duration : 3 min 13 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 258 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 5.94 MiB (9%)
Default : Yes
Alternate group : 1

[Skiller]

Now whats strange is that I have read on the forum, that the standard for commercial DVD is TFF, yet a few I have are BFF

There is no standard. Although TFF is indeed much more common.

sadly there are a few that are commercially bought but been mastered wrong i.e. BFF

Unless we are talking about low-budget productions, bootlegs or other dubious origins, I highly doubt that a commercially released DVD has the field order flagged wrong. It would be blatantly obvious even to the most ignorant of quality testers or viewers.

I suspect the problem lies somewhere else in your ripping or playback chain.

1) why would companies when releasing box sets of DVD do this ??

They don't, unless see above.

2) I even have season 1&2 in TFF and season 3&4 in BFF.... crazy what these so called experts get up to when mastering and releasing box sets of DVDS

There is nothing technically wrong with that.

3) I wonder if these companies do this for protection so that when you rip it plays back blury ??

No. That would be the lousiest of all protections because the flag is supposed to be obeyed, thus it does not make the slightest difference if it's TFF or BFF, unless it is the wrong one.

3) can this be done lossless with no loss in audio or video

Yes, it is just a flag that is either true or false (TFF=true/false). It can be changed losslessly but all methods I am aware of require demuxing the VOBs into elementary streams.

5) if MKV can not do this what is the best program, to do this in a fully lossles format ?? handbrake ??

I would use PgcDemux, then Restream to change the flag, then proceed with what you use to make the MKVs.


See if changing the field order flag fixes it. I kinda doubt it.

[netmask56]

I have ripped my entire DVD and Blu ray and UHD discs using MakeMKV for my Zidoo UHD3000. Unlike many I'm not interested in so called extras and other padding. If the DVD has chapters MakeMKV will include them in the rip along with all titles on the disc as separate MKV files. At the moment Zidoo is not handling classic DVD or Blu ray menu structures very well but I suspect it will be addressed in the upcoming firmware release possibly soon after the Asian New Year has settled and the population of China returns from visiting family and friends. Can you name a DVD that has the problem you observe, maybe I'll have it in my collection? Reiterating I tend to just rip the main movie and discard the extras including additional languages and subtitles I don't need to minimise file size. Generally I extract the sub using MKVCleaver and put it with the main movie MKV file, although Zidoo has no problems playing embedded subs within the MKV file. For external subs I've set the display colour as yellow that suits me. Also the automatic download of subs is not bad even for quite old titles. As far as internal settings on my Zidoo I've set mine on automatic and haven't had any frame rate issues.

[Johnnysh]

Hey Guys thank you for your reply

What I can tell you is most of the DVDs I'm having issues with are UK TV Shows

1) DVD box set of on the buses (11 DVDs)
2) Grange Hill Series 4 & 5, 6 & 7 (Eurika), series 1&2, 3&4 are fine these are done by another company (TFF)
3) Box set of Brtias Empire (Eurika)


this company called Eurika are truy awful at putting together DVD UK TV box sets, they have all been mastered wrongly buy Eurika and do not play fluid, I do not belive it's anything to do with the ripping process, Its the DVDs !!






It seems strange how these are all UK TVs Series with issues, it may be how they were mastered with interlacing when creating the DVDs sets

all I know is,

1) when ripped unsing AnyDVD ( my favorite ripping software) they do not play back fluid and as they should do, I'm a very long time user of anydvd ripping and clone CD
2) Even using makeMKV does not rip the video chapter from the DVD and play back fluid from these DVDs, the playback is not smooth and fluid
3) I would rather rip the DVDs as whole 1:1, but with the odd problomatic BFF dvd, I'm happy to strip the chapters, if it would work with MakeMKV but sadley that does not work?

yes I understand the zidoo UHD3000 does not deal with DVD menu's great, but you can manually select the chapters in poster wall which works fine for rips. If only the DVDs were mastered corretly by these companies in the begging, its shocking the substandard quality of these comercuial DVD boxsets and the way the so called video engineers have mastered these cherrished tv memories.

Simply one should be able to rip ANY DVD to pc and it should play correctly, in a fluid manor, these do not, shame on these companies and engineer selling these substandard box sets that I have purchased

the best result I have had for fluid playback is to rip with WinX DVD and ripping the chapter to mpg4 with interlace selected, this plays back very smooth, but not happy with the quality as don't really want to go down the the mpg4 route of encoding, also the inteerlcaing was set to progressive once encoded not sure if this why they play back smoother ?


simply just want the dvd rip to play back smoothly is a fluid fashon, this dam interlacing drive me crazy, though understand why it was required with crt tv's
but it's a real pain when converting to digital playback

when I playback the makemkv file from these DVDs on the zidoo uhd3000 it is blury and not fluid, so it looks the only way forward with these TV series DVDs is to remux them

appreciate anymore help and thank you for replying


regards

[davexnet]

Post a 30 second sample cut direct from the mpeg-2, either the VOB or MKV

[Johnnysh]

Hi

Thank you for the reply, what is the best program to use to extract 30secs from each dvd native

Thank you

[davexnet]

Try and find a scene showing some steady movement.
If it's MKV probably AVIdemux, set mpeg-2 PS "output format" bottom left. Use the A and B to find a scene showing the problem.
upload the MPG
If it's native mpeg-2 or VOB, open the file in DGindex, use the [ and ] buttons,
File / Save project and demux video - upload the resulting m2v

[Johnnysh]

Thank you

have done as you said and notice these are TFF but play awful in my zidoo and even jerky and blury in vcl player

please see samples of DVD rips that play bad blury and not fluid , these two video clips have been taken from ANYDVD full dvd rip on hard drive

Thanks in advance for any help

Regards

[jagabo]

Those two m2v files are interlaced, tff. MediaInfo shows tff. ffprobe shows every frame is flagged as interlaced and tff. GSpot shows them as ppf (picture-per-field -- fields encoded as separate images). For some reason, Mpeg2Source() in AviSynth flags them as bff. So one needs to specify AssumeTFF() after importing with Mpeg2Source(). Other source filters in AviSynth, ffmpegsource and lwlibavvideosource, properly report tff.

Mpeg2Source("VTS_01_3.demuxed.d2v", CPU2="ooooxx", Info=3) 
AssumeTFF()
Crop(8,0, -8, -0)
QTGMC()

[DB83]

Well I do not have 20/20 vision.

I downloaded the first clip from 'On The Buses' and it plays quite fine for me in VLC


Network, who release these, and have done so over many versions, are no 'fly by night' company. If there were serious issues as you describe I would have thought they would be fixed by now.


I guess the second is from 'Grange Hill'. Yet, again, there is not the issues you describe. But this is, surely, a BBC release and have NEVER heard of Eurika.


Maybe the issue, if it really does exist, is with the ripping process. Bitrate is somewhat higher than what one would typically expect (from the full vob) and 'variable GOPs' ?????

[Sharc]

I don't see anything unusual with vts_01_3. It is interlaced TFF.

VTS_03_1 is interlaced TFF as well but includes a progressive section (moving bus and car) with a poor PsF with a good and a poor field from the same instant in time. Either one would have to synthesize the missing field in the "PsF section" from the good fields by temporal interpolation, or perhaps apply a simple clean up for the entire file like

assumetff()
QTGMC() #bob and clean up; reduce the flicker of the PsF section
separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave() #re-interlace

[Skiller]

What's quite rare is that these are encoded with field structure (only few encoders are even able to do that!). That's interesting for me because I have never come across a DVD that uses this. Usually it is frame structure (two fields in one frame, quantized using so called "alternate" scanning to keep the interlace). Field structure yields slightly better quality for though interlaced motion. Someone knew what they were doing and didn't just use standard settings! Doesn't look like a shoddy job to me at all!

Anyways, the parity flag (TFF/BFF) is the correct one and they play smooth.

[Sharc]

Anyways, the parity flag (TFF/BFF) is the correct one and they play smooth.

Isn't there a (flickering) progressive section in vts_03_1 when bus and car are moving on the road (Frames 2994 to 4287)? Both fields seem to be from the same point in time. No?

[jagabo]

Yes, the BBC often used film when shooting on location, video cameras when shooting in the studio. So there can be a mix of 25i and 25p in shows from that era. The 1975 Survivors series was like that.

[Sharc]

Yes, the BBC often used film when shooting on location, video cameras when shooting in the studio. So there can be a mix of 25i and 25p in shows from that era. The 1975 Survivors series was like that.

I see, thanks.
Just wondering about the brightness flicker between the 2 separated fields of the 25p section.

[jagabo]

Just wondering about the brightness flicker between the 2 separated fields of the 25p section.

It's consistent throughout that section so it's probably something to do with the telecine equipment.

[Johnnysh]

hey guys

thank you for your input and info loving the feedback

I have total confidence in the Ripping software ANYDVD, I have never seen anything better and a very long time user, MakeMKV is also very good, but is does not get any better than ANYDVD !


well I play them in VLC and I don't think they play smooth in certain scenes I see juddering and blurs etc

I see grange hill slightly slow and delayed when people move or the camera pans, it not fluid, the same on the zidoo uhd3000

On the buses there's lots of flickering far far far from fluid and smooth playback

so I notice everyone state these are all fine, but I must be seeing something that other people find acceptable ? I thinks this playback is truly awful quality

I would say on the buses looks cleaner than grange hill, but both are not fluid to me, and sadly even worse when on the premium zidoo uhd3000 media player?

you state ... What's quite rare is that these are encoded with field structure, so could it be this that's throwing out the smooth play back as this is not the norm for DVDs ???

once I viewed the QTGMC conversions, they deffo player more fluid and smooth, almost nothing like the DVD rip, far more impressive

so are we really saying ,,,,

1) I need to rip each DVD,
2) strip the chapters
3) QTGMC
4) then playback


It will be months and months of work, but may be the very best results from substandard DVD interlacing artifacts ???

So is this the way to go?


I also have major issues with the Brittas Empire DVD boxset, I will Rip and upload a small clip soon sadly another BBC effort ??


Thanks once again, loving this post and feedback


Regards

[Skiller]

Yes, I'm beginning to think you do indeed see something we don't see.

you state ... What's quite rare is that these are encoded with field structure, so could it be this that's throwing out the smooth play back as this is not the norm for DVDs ???

Yes, that is possible. Especially because you say the QTGMC version is smooth for you. Hence it is not just the 25p judder in that scene that you see. There is the possibility that the MPEG decoder of your media player does not have the field structure playability correctly implemented (especially these days where MPEG2 is just legacy and field structure is barely ever used anywhere). Possible, we will find out.

Here is VTS_03_1 reencoded without anything done to the video itself. Basically the same as the source, but with the usual frame structure interlaced encoding, not field structure like the source.


Now, if this plays fine on your media player, the culprit would be indeed the implementation of field based playback in your media player.


Oh, by the way I take back what I said about whoever encoded this knew what they were doing. I just noticed the source has closed GOPs with a fixed length of 5 frames, no adaptive GOP structure and no scene change detection. Yikes.

[DB83]

Just a few comments from my earlier post.

'On The Buses' was not BBC but produced by London Weeken Television for the comercial ITV network. Even so for a series that ended in 1973 I would expect external shots to be on film and there is some evidence of interlacing if you freeze-frame the brief road sequence when the bus is close-up.


Following research, the later company releasing the dvds of 'Grange Hill', although a BBC production, was Eureka (not Eurika) Entertainment - thought they only dealt with Classic films. Suprised that the Beeb did not release these as well. There is a comment on Wiki that some studio scenes were 'filmized'


But, at the end of the day, I am relieved that I am not the only one who has no issues with these. If the culprit is not the ripping process (and other disks do seem fine) then only the player is left (except VLC, and WMP for those samples were fine) unless the OP, dare I say it, has other PC issues.

[netmask56]

I have the box set of Eureka and I ripped all discs using MakeMKV, episodes only didn't bother with extras. My set came out of Germany and all the cover notes and titles on the box are in German but the language is the original American English. Absolutely perfect playback on my Zidoo UHD3000 so much so I've turned on the VS10 engine and it does a good job at faux Dolby Vision.


US box cover


[Attachment 68859 - Click to enlarge]

[Sharc]

@Johnnysh:
What's your monitor's refresh rate? Can you set it to an integer multiple of 25fps? If so, is the playback still jerky?

[DB83]

I have the box set of Eureka......

No connection whatsoever with Eureka Entertainment and the products relevant to this thread.

[Sharc]

I don't know if it matters but analyzing the files with 'ffprobe -show_frames' indicates a repetitive pattern like aabcdeefgh.... for the timestamps of the original .m2v, whereas the QTGMC'd (and re-interlaced + recoded) variant shows a continuous progress (abcdefgh ....without repetitions) of the time stamps.

Edit: The repetitions seem to preceed a key frame, so they are related to the fix GOP lenght and have probably no impact on smooth playback.

[jagabo]

for a series that ended in 1973 I would expect external shots to be on film and there is some evidence of interlacing if you freeze-frame the brief road sequence when the bus is close-up.

That's not because there's motion between the two fields. It's because there's a difference in brightness/gamma. As I speculated earlier, that was probably caused by some kind of problem during the conversion from film to analog interlaced video.

[jagabo]

What's quite rare is that these are encoded with field structure (only few encoders are even able to do that!). That's interesting for me because I have never come across a DVD that uses this.

And this is probably at the root of the OP's problem. Given the unusual encoding for DVD some software isn't handling it correctly, some is.

[Sharc]

How would I see that the video is encoded with field structure? From the header? MediaInfo reports "fields", but ffprobe reports 'interlaced_frame=true'.
Isn't interlaced x265 always field structured (although I have never met interlaced x265)?

[poisondeathray]

How would I see that the video is encoded with field structure? From the header? MediaInfo reports "fields", but ffprobe reports 'interlaced_frame=true'.

gspot and dgindex can also report frame structure

The value is reported under the picture_coding_extension , picture_structure will report "3" for frame picture, such as in Skiller's re-encode . Those 2 samples report "2" which is bottom field

Table 6-14 in the ITU Rec. h.262 document lists the values

Isn't interlaced x265 always field structured (although I have never met interlaced x265)?

Yes, and many decoders are not setup to decode it properly. Avoid.

[Johnnysh]

Hi Guys

here is another TV BBC rip that plays awful Brittas Empire, slow jerky, blury same problem and yes another BBC Interlaced TV Show, DVD Box Set

What is going on with TV Interlaced DVDs ??

so I still confused ??? where is the issue,

yes could be my premium Zidoo UHD3000 £1000 media player, but don't think so.....

I'm not happy with the playback in VLC so i know the issues are elsewhere, you can easily see the 3 video snippets do not plays back in a fluid and silky smooth manor

all these 3 samples do not....


so is the only answer QTGMC and get rid of this awful interlacing


It would seem different people are getting different result from different software, do we have anything definitive at the moment please



thank you in advance


regards

[Skiller]

That latest sample is also using field structure. Plays perfectly smooth for me in VLC. So that doesn't answer any questions, until you try my re-encode on your Zidoo player.

yes could be my premium Zidoo UHD3000 £1000 media player, but don't think so.....

Well, please test it, don't just assume.

I'm not happy the playback in VLC

What are your deinterlace settings in VLC? Try "on" (not automatic) and "Yadif (2x)".

[Johnnysh]

someone asked about my screen settings, please see, but this would have nothing to do with these dvds not playing correctly in the media player


thanks