Snell & Wilcox - CVR400/600 Windows Control Panel

[jwillis84]

This is FYI.

Just figured out how to get the old RollTop and RollCall software for the Snell & Wilcox Timebase Frame Synchronizers to work.

If anyone has a copy of the RollCall 3.x version I'd love to play with that too.

But what I got working was RollTop1.6e.4 and RollCall Lite 4.12.

The Converters 400D and 600AD are standalone, the 400 is video only, the 600 is audio and video, it has an audio delay module and an SDI audio embedder.. if you prefer to take the SDI output instead of using it as a pass-thru to another capture device.

Both are the last to have the 4 Pin DIN connectors for S-Video Input and Output.

So they are kind of unique, in that they were totally digital and used ADV chips for decoders and encoders.

While I have been using them from the front control panel only, they have a series of momentary buttons to select and choose options and a single dial to manipulate digital settings in NVRAM.. that left a whole lot to be desired.

The RollCall Control Panel software basically connects to the RollTop service monitoring and servicing the USB port connected to the CVR400 or CVR600

From there you can then "pull" a list of controls and settings from the device into the Control Panel application and it autobuilds a more familiar windows dialog based control panel. Choosing menus and pressing buttons with a mouse makes changes in the device pretty much instantaneously.

The idea is like a lot of high end hardware codecs or mixer/switchers.. once you set things up.. you can power it down and power it up on location and it remembers how it was setup and your good to go.. that is not what most people in a studio or home capture environment is used too.

I don't think a detailed tutorial is all that necessary, this is rare gear and few people use it. But perhaps its helpful to know that it is possible and does work with a gui software.

The RollCall 3.x software I think was licensed, so even if I had a copy to install I think I would need the license key to really play with that.

The RollCall 4.x software had a "Lite" version which was freely available for download and did not require a License.. and thats what I found online.

[dellsam34]

I've been trying to find a copy of RollCall software to use with the S&W TBS800 and I've been unsuccessful, All what I can find is a bunch of click baits to malicious files with the same file name. Could you share a safe link?
The TBS800 does not have USB, it uses an ethernet port which it should work based on your screenshot where it shows IP Gateway.

[dellsam34]

Was this by any chance your post? It came up when I was looking for the rollcall software.
http://www.johnwillis.com/2022/02/snell-wilcox-kudos-crv600ad-s-video-to.html

[jwillis84]

Yeah that's my blog.. I dash off daft comments about lots of stuff there.. nobody reads it... I hope.

Check your private messages.

[dellsam34]

Thanks, I will rig up some ethernet cable and give it a try, Some pins need to be reversed but I have the tool and materials to make a 2ft special cross-wired ethernet cable (RJ45). Though the models equipped with ethernet port seem to have a running web interface that probably resides inside the on-board SD card as shown in this manual.

[jwillis84]

I don't think you need a cross over if you have a modern switch, auto MTX takes care of that for you.

[dellsam34]

I don't have a switch, I will be connecting straight to computer.

[jwillis84]

Further FYI

I installed to Windows 7 x64 and then checked the ID database that comes along with the install, it looks like your model number is in there;

[jwillis84]

Noticed a diagram in the "Kudos USP_IP Gateway Apps NoteV3.pdf"

It seems to indicate the same "RollTop" service application must be installed and used to connect to the TBS800 using the Ethernet TCP/IP connection

So its very very similar to the process that I went through with the USB, except with USB I simply configuired "Options.txt" and started the RollTop.exe service application, then started the RollCall and that connected to the RollTop service and discovered the available devices on that bus type.

The bottom row of this diagram lists in "tiny" font, the actual model numbers of the TBC and Frame Sync devices, they get extended "funky" names only if they offer something beyond simple TBC and Frame Sync functions. For example ARC - Indicates "Aspect Ratio Correction" which basically means it can cross convert from 4:3 to 16:9 or Pillar or Letterbox, or some other odd Conversion function.

I have only "understood" this jargon for a very short time, but its starting to fall into place and make sense.. it reminds me of 1999 CORBA programming, overdesigned a bit and therefore overly complex to understand.

[dellsam34]

These devices came at the time of transitioning from analog to digital in certain countries and HD and 16:9 programing are being made so all those functions did have a purpose, For just capturing analog tapes HD, ARC and format conversion must be kept off.
Do you think the CVR600 have line TBC? I noticed that the TBS800 (CVR800 Grass Valley equivalent after the acquisition) has a very powerful line TBC based on my own tests on problematic tapes that the JVC VCR line TBC failed to fix, But there is no option to turn it off without turning off frame TBC function, though it doesn't seem to be invasive or degrade the quality further like changing chroma and luma levels.

[lordsmurf]

I want to loop into this conversation.

Would you please share RollCall and RollTop with me, too?

I have a CVR600, but not overly impressed with brief first tests some months ago. Want to try again later, when I get elusive free time. I also used the BM mini.

[jwillis84]

These devices came at the time of transitioning from analog to digital in certain countries and HD and 16:9 programing are being made so all those functions did have a purpose, For just capturing analog tapes HD, ARC and format conversion must be kept off.
Do you think the CVR600 have line TBC? I noticed that the TBS800 (CVR800 Grass Valley equivalent after the acquisition) has a very powerful line TBC based on my own tests on problematic tapes that the JVC VCR line TBC failed to fix, But there is no option to turn it off without turning off frame TBC function, though it doesn't seem to be invasive or degrade the quality further like changing chroma and luma levels.

The Later BNC "only" versions specialized in HD/SD, the Earlier S-Video DIN versions targeted SD "only" VHS and Broadcast only, but from what technical documentation I read they honed in on VHS (they didn't say commercial VHS specifically, but they intimated "very bad" VHS signals) specifically. They weren't trying to be the "best" at everything but capture "widely varying, terrible signals" the later versions sharpened up their target market towards Broadcast signals only. I'm not knocking your TBS800 or CVR800 (I wish I had them to play with) but they are definitely designed to work with a better quality of signal.. and probably produce a better signal than the 400/600 by sacrificing what they will work with on the inputs.. certainly the BNC only inputs mean a lot more noise rejection.

So its a double edge sword.

It may fix widely varying time base problems and frame sync problems, no other device would even touch.. but the output signal will be merely "usable". In some cases stability is all you can hope for. My experience in the last year has been.. yeah they always "work" I can capture with some capture devices I couldn't touch with many other workflows.. but the picture still depends a lot on what was in the signal to begin with.. if it was grainy and I couldn't capture before.. I can capture now.. but the signal still has grain. (yes I do turn all the filters off to start)

The controls over proc-amp are nice, but the extra features like audio and video delay controls are extremely rare, the choice of freerun or float also very rare, and the ability to chose what it does when frame corruption or input signal is lost; I have only seen on high end AJA frame syncs and expensive Grass Valley gear.

The documentation just sucks terribly.. I mean its awful,, even reading tea leaves is easier.

That they separate out the Chroma or DNR or Luma filters for individual on off or levels of strength are just not explained well. They are easily as complex as the pro-amp controls.. I think there were like Eleven different controls before you go to the ARC controls and those were massive as well.

If you hate Analog Devices chips.. there ain't nothing I can do to convince you otherwise, a bias is a bias.. but to me these magic boxes are a frustrating source of puzzling fun.

[lordsmurf]

This was a very good post, especially that first paragraph, touched on all the things I often refer to, when it comes to TBCs.

Bravo.

The Later BNC "only" versions specialized in HD/SD, the Earlier S-Video DIN versions targeted SD "only" VHS and Broadcast only, but from what technical documentation I read they honed in on VHS (they didn't say commercial VHS specifically, but they intimated "very bad" VHS signals) specifically. They weren't trying to be the "best" at everything but capture "widely varying, terrible signals" the later versions sharpened up their target market towards Broadcast signals only. I'm not knocking your TBS800 or CVR800 (I wish I had them to play with) but they are definitely designed to work with a better quality of signal.. and probably produce at better signal than the 400/600 by sacrificing what they will work with on the inputs.. certainly the BNC only inputs mean a lot more noise rejection.

So its a double edge sword.

It may fix widely varying time base problems and frame sync problems, no other device would even touch.. but the output signal will be merely "usable". In some cases stability is all you can hope for. My experience in the last year has been.. yeah they always "work" I can capture with some capture devices I couldn't touch with many other workflows.. but the picture still depends a lot on what was in the signal to begin with.. if it was grainy and I couldn't capture before.. I can capture now.. but the signal still has grain. (yes I do turn all the filters off to start)

The controls over proc-amp are nice, but the extra features like audio and video delay controls are extremely rare, the choice of freerun or float also very rare, and the ability to chose what it does when frame corruption or input signal is lost; I have only seen on high end AJA frame syncs and expensive Grass Valley gear.

The documentation just sucks terribly.. I mean its awful,, even reading tea leaves is easier.

That they separate out the Chroma or DNR or Luma filters for individual on off or levels of strength are just not explained well. They are easily as complex as the pro-amp controls.. I think there were like Eleven different controls before you go to the ARC controls and those were massive as well.

If you hate Analog Devices chips.. there ain't nothing I can do to convince you otherwise, a bias is a bias.. but to me these magic boxes are a frustrating source of puzzling fun.

... though I don't like the term "bias" in reference to ADI chips. It's not bias to point out how these chips fall flat on promises, often doing nothing, sometimes even harming the image/signal quality. The opposite of irrational adoration (which certain VH members have gotten for these old chips only in the past few years) is not bias. I'm a realist, above all else. The world is shades of gray, and sometimes that gray is dirty coal. It reminds me of bitcoin, some people will insist on being oblivious to neon-lit problems.

[jwillis84]

I did not mention they have extensive COMB Filter flows built in as well.. ridiculous depth of control.. which is what I think they use to classify "Motion" quality.

I can't think of another reason to qualify their appropriateness for Motion speed.

If your using S-Video or YPrPb (some models had YPrPb) then Motion Estimation is "of course" meaningless.. these are not compression codecs

[dellsam34]

I did an extensive testing comparing the Pinnacle 500-USB, BE75 and TBS800 and linked some samples and though I don't have the CVR600 I have no doubt that it performs just as good as it on SD sources given the fact that it did better than the USB-500 and BE75 (in line motion), But I will keep an eye on a CRV600 and do my own testing.

Here is the ADV7802 Datasheet found in the TBS/CVR800 and the ADV7310/11 Datasheet found in the TBS190/CVR600

[jwillis84]

A lot depends upon the circuit surrounding the chips, and many features can be defeated or muted to the point the chips cannot do what they were originally designed to do.

Narrowing the sync window in time and sensitivity were easy tricks to make them more sensitive to HD signals which were faster and different voltage levels. That optimized for digital Broadcast demodulators and were more common after 2010 .. which coincided with Snell&Wilcox rebranding and multiple resales.. that company sure was handed around a lot in short order. Some older equipment allowed gating the window and optimizing for source.. but its rare. I'd be curious if the TBS and CVR you have allowed that. The earlier versions seemed to turn on and enable every bell and whistle AD could pump out of their chips and then some.

I found the original source for those files.. it seems I richoeted off some old links in archive org and found them on specific dates in links that never lead to a real webpage.. well the RollTop does, but not RollTopLite .. that one is rather unique.

RollTop was offical and developed in 2010 shortly before yet another sale.. and it is different from Roll USB or PCI. Those were TCP/IP connected gateways and their RollUSB software does not monitor USB ports.. its confusing and I havent' sorted that aspect out.. but its why it took me so long.. the red herring.. RollCallLite also seems to have a COMMs program built in that does not work with Serial ports or USB ports or virtial COMM over Serial or USB ports.

Thats all specific to me and any one working with the CVR400/600

You in theory should have an easier time of it.

RollTop seemed to appear and disappear from their website almost as soon as it appeared.. I think they dropped the CVR400/600 after that sale and went totally towards CVR700/800 and never looked back.. so they didn't have a use for the RollTop software.

I have tried and tried to find a RollCall 3.5 or 3.8 version .. but other than vague references to their RollCall Media CDROM that came with their products brand new.. i just could not find it. I prefer the Windows COM/DCOM windows environment.. but <sigh> .. i may never find a copy.

The Java RollCallLite v4 is okay, it works fine and is reasonably fast.. i'm just not a big fan of AWT widgets .. <sigh>

[dellsam34]

I have a project going on that consists of modifying the TBS800 to include everything in the box since it has a lot of room inside the enclosure, SDI/USB card, Unbalanced to balanced card all under one hood, I de-soldered most of the jacks that are not needed to make room for the new jacks such as USB3, HDMI for monitoring, I repurposed 2 composite BNC outputs for unbalanced stereo audio input and a BNC SDI out for SDI in for Betacam decks.

[Mirmih]

Yeah that's my blog.. I dash off daft comments about lots of stuff there.. nobody reads it... I hope.

Check your private messages.

Hello! Could you send me a RollCall software too? Thanks in advance!

[dellsam34]

I've PM'ed you the link.

[Mirmih]

I've PM'ed you the link.

Great Thanks You!

[aramkolt]

Hmm. This is pretty interesting - I looked inside of a Blackmagic Hyperdeck Studio Pro 2 I was repairing which is around the same vintage as these Grass Valley/Snell&Wilcox devices. It happens to use an Analog Devices AD7842 which has very similar specs to the 7802 - According to the specs, It does have a TBC, 3D comb filter and 4 12 bit DACs.

Even more interesting is that it appears it may also have a line TBC which they describe as "ADLLT". This is from the manual:

"The ADV7842 implements a patented Adaptive Digital Line Length Tracking (ADLLT™) algorithm to track varying video line lengths from sources such as a VCR. ADLLT enables the ADV7842 to track and decode poor quality video sources (such as VCRs) and noisy sources (such as tuner outputs, VCR players, and camcorders). Frame TBC ensures stable clock synchronization between the decoder and the downstream devices."


I'll have to do some testing if I can get the hyperdeck working - if it does work, that would be a very interesting direct capture device as it can record directly to ProRes on insertable SSDs. Only downside is that I'm not sure if you can input S-Video into the unit, but it does have composite which I guess is the only way that you'd get use out of the 3D comb filter anyway. It does accept component in, so my original thought was you could use the component outputs from rackmount TBCs.

[dellsam34]

You don't really go by the chip datasheet because the manufacturer can omit or disable some outputs in the product design, The only way to find out for sure if a feature is enabled is to actually test the device. I know for a fact that the TBS800 does have the ADLLT feature, because I tried it on a second gen dub with severe baked in line timing errors and it managed to track the start of scan lines and gave a stable image compared to a regular line TBC like the one in the VCR or a DVD recorder. I haven't done extensive frame TBC tests, but I will be posting videos to my YT channel testing all the features of the S&W TBS800 in the near future.