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  1. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    In that link he is using NLE software to transfer DV, that's the biggest mistake. Those software have a lot of problems with importing DV, so that negates all what he said about firewire cards, Yes some people had success using NLE but for a newbie any wrong setting could render your DV files useless, This had happened to me personally few years ago when I was new to DV, that's when I discovered WinDV, Sclive and HDVsplit. So it is not the card per se but the OS, the drivers and ingest software.
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  2. Hi all, I received the firewire card today, Iíll install it later if I get time, if not tomorrow. Iíve just got one question about this hot plugging business.

    Iím reading conflicting stuff about the right way to connect to a firewire port. Some people say to power off pc and camcorder, connect the two, power up pc and then turn on camcorder.

    Others say to power off pc and camcorder, connect them, turn on camcorder and then turn on pc.

    There is an old thread on this forum where somebody says to connect them together while they are both on, if Im reading it correctly?

    ďpowering down computer and camcorder completely, unplug
    power both up again (do not connect)
    in camcorder settings, set DV out to enable, or choose AV>DV out, or any setting that sounds the same
    on computer, disconnect any and all USB devices apart from probably keyboard/mouse
    ensure no program in windoze is open; this includes bloat, mal, and trashware that automatically gets loaded on startup (especially for laughtops)
    absolutely disconnect/disable LAN, blutut, wi-fi
    open device manager; expand imaging devices
    connect camcorder to computer firewire portĒ




    What way to you guys suggest connecting the two? My cameras a sony and apparently prone to getting fried if not connected right, so Im a bit worried about cocking it up.
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  3. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    If you have a ground lead on your PC main power cable you may not have to worry about all this, Your camcorder does not receive power from PC since it has a 4 pin so that's a plus, But static electricity can indeed kill a micro chip, however chances of that happening depends on if you have a ground loop that's why a grounded power cable is important. Having said all that, I would always turn the PC on first and wait until everything is loaded up, then proceed with hooking up the camcorder and turn it on, After use you can keep everything connected if possible and just turn off camcorder then turn off PC, when needed again turn PC on then camcorder.
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    I use the Dellsham's procedure. I have a Canon HV20 which is, apparently, susceptible to "frying" but have not had any problems; I always make sure the camera is off when plugging in the 4-pin end of the firewire cable. I leave the 6-pin end permanently plugged in to my computer.

    The HV20 manual actually says to power both on and then connect the camera, but also has a warning to make sure the 6-pin plug end is correctly inserted; there is power in the 6-pin socket and I assume that if you somehow got the plug in to the computer the wrong way round, one of the lines in the 4-pin end could be "live". That said, you'd have to be pretty-hamfisted to get it wrong, as both plugs are "one-way only".
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  5. Same here... my PC is on 24/7 with the firewire cable attached. When I want to capture I connect the camera (powered off) to the firewire cable, then power-on the camera. Never had an issue this way for many captures and 3 different cameras.
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  6. Well I was expecting a bit of a ball ache with trying to get everything working, drivers etc, but all went well. I fitted the card, connected the camera and windows recognised it straight away. I opened windv and was able to start capturing immediately.

    I set the discontinuity threshold to 0 and file size to 150000 so that it would end up as one file, Ive never edited anything before so was unsure about having lots of small files that have to be put together.

    Everything went well until about 30 minutes into the tape and then it started dropping frames. After about 10 minutes it had dropped 200 ish frames, the screen then went black in windv screen. Tape was still playing fine on camera screen so definitely no issue with the tape.

    Maybe @Eric-jan was right and not enough ram? I think I might upgrade the ram to 16 and see if that helps.

    Anyway, I know that I have gone off of thread topic and that there is another section for dv talk so maybe Iíll make another thread there if I cant figure out the frame dropping.

    Thanks for all the advice, Iíd never have got this far without it.
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  7. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Try to disable all background OS activities, they take a lot of CPU sometimes, You may want to try that before you upgrade the RAM, it could be CPU issue not RAM.
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  8. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
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    Yeah, if it's not CPU or RAM related it can also be not fast enough access to the storage media, HDD, i guess this pc has no SSDÖ..
    Uncompressed capture is just to heavy for this PC,
    You should maybe look for an all hardware solution, so no new computer or laptop, a new computer will cost you more than a good converter + hdmi recorder, capture from s-video of the camera, (s-video should be available for thisÖ. has more color information than DV i guess)
    or it should be a good 2nd hand computer, with enough horsepower and fast (SSD) storage.
    Last edited by Eric-jan; 25th Nov 2022 at 13:03.
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  9. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    That's BS, I've transferred DV as far back as 2006, no SSD, no big RAM, no fast CPU, Again as I said it's OS activity that takes a lot of CPU, try to address that problem.
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  10. Originally Posted by Leanoric View Post
    Maybe @Eric-jan was right and not enough ram?
    No. More likely the tools you use keep gobbling up the resources during capture, a memory leak or something. All your capture program should be doing is taking data from Firewire port and dumping it into a file. Turn off all extra processing, splitting into scenes, creating of thumbnails, etc. All you need is copying the data. As long as your HDD is fast enough, this should work.
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  11. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    That's BS, I've transferred DV as far back as 2006, no SSD, no big RAM, no fast CPU, Again as I said it's OS activity that takes a lot of CPU, try to address that problem.
    Same here, since 2001. Speed of the disks was not a problem (capturing on a separate drive than the OS drive), neither the CPU nor the RAM. But the PC had to do nothing else while capturing (background processes, antivirus, internet, etc.). I did not even move the mouse while capturing
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    My main capture computer is a lowly Lenovo laptop Athlon II P-360 Dual core 2.4Ghz with 4GB RAM.
    Running Windows 7x64 is key, and it is reformatted and totally offline, dedicated to capture.
    It cranks out sync-perfect video captures every time, with my TBC-1000.
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  13. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Barrythecrab View Post
    My main capture computer is a lowly Lenovo laptop Athlon II P-360 Dual core 2.4Ghz with 4GB RAM.
    Running Windows 7x64 is key, and it is reformatted and totally offline, dedicated to capture.
    It cranks out sync-perfect video captures every time, with my TBC-1000.
    And that's using Firewire to transfer ? price of TBC-1000 ? < this helps ?
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    Díoh! I forgot about the FireWire!
    Nevertheless a cheap used Windows 7 laptop solved a lot of capture issues with me.
    My other older DV7T has FireWire, offline, and transfers are no issue.
    That being stated I should put my Friday beverage on the table long enough Eric, to reread the thread!
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  15. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Barrythecrab View Post
    Díoh! I forgot about the FireWire!
    Nevertheless a cheap used Windows 7 laptop solved a lot of capture issues with me.
    My other older DV7T has FireWire, offline, and transfers are no issue.
    That being stated I should put my Friday beverage on the table long enough Eric, to reread the thread!
    No worries, it's already a messy thread, I still think a computer is not a suitable "device" to capture video with,
    it should be optimized to a certain level, sometimes downgraded, to suit the older capture devices, which is not ideal, even recent
    good capture devices are "in danger" because PC's and OS's keep being upgraded, newer capture devices/dongles are just not good of quality,
    Good TBC devices are also rare, old, or expensive, best second option is using a passthrough dvd-recorder, but there's already a lot been said now in this threadÖ..
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  16. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Leanoric View Post
    Maybe @Eric-jan was right and not enough ram?
    No.

    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Try to disable all background OS activities, they take a lot of CPU sometimes, You may want to try that before you upgrade the RAM, it could be CPU issue not RAM.
    Correct.

    But I'd go further: it's never RAM, not in decades. DV minimum specs worked on Pentium II computers from the mid 1990s, Pentium III suggested. DV is old tech. Not just old, but damned old, to the point of being almost worthless. It was a step back even from VHS in many ways, as it made compromises in quality (blocks, chroma starved).

    Only when RAM is fective is it RAM, and it wouldn't just be video capture with issues.

    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    That's BS, I've transferred DV as far back as 2006, no SSD, no big RAM, no fast CPU, Again as I said it's OS activity that takes a lot of CPU, try to address that problem.
    Correct, BS.

    Originally Posted by Bwaak View Post
    No. More likely the tools you use keep gobbling up the resources during capture, a memory leak or something. All your capture program should be doing is taking data from Firewire port and dumping it into a file. Turn off all extra processing, splitting into scenes, creating of thumbnails, etc. All you need is copying the data. As long as your HDD is fast enough, this should work.
    FYI, this is what happens when capturing with NLEs. Resources and drivers. Don't use NLEs to capture, that's not what those are designed for. Use NLEs/editors to edit, not capture, not make breakfast, etc.

    Originally Posted by Barrythecrab View Post
    with my TBC-1000.
    Quality tools, quality experiences.

    Originally Posted by Barrythecrab View Post
    Nevertheless a cheap used Windows 7 laptop solved a lot of capture issues with me.
    I don't know that I'd go cheap (under $200 is what I consider cheap), but something like a Dell M4800 (with the right specs) would go a long way to capture sanity.

    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    Same here, since 2001. Speed of the disks was not a problem (capturing on a separate drive than the OS drive), neither the CPU nor the RAM. But the PC had to do nothing else while capturing (background processes, antivirus, internet, etc.). I did not even move the mouse while capturing
    I don't know about "no problems", but the video community was fairly wise to the workarounds, and bad hardware at the time (VIA, AMD+, AVer, BT8x8, etc).

    And you know you'd drop frames when you'd move the mouse, don't you? The way the display worked in the OS (98/ME/2K), it could screw stuff up. It still happens to gamers, with fancy graphics cards and mice (drivers often to blame). With XP, for video capture, not as much, but still best to not tempt fate.

    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    ? price of TBC-1000 ?
    Your constant moaning about prices of quality gear gets tedious.

    - Big bucks for overly fancy computer, with main focus being to play video games? "Sure, no problem!"
    - Big bucks (cumulative per annum) for vices like booze, cigarettes, weed, cola/sugar, etc? "Sure, no problem!"
    - Big bucks for other hobbies, be it cars or sewing or photo or action figures? "Sure, no problem!"
    - Big bucks (and yet less bucks that the others above), for a tool for the task of converting cherished memories? "OMG! WTF! UNACCEPTABLE!"

    Do you see how utterly stupid that is?

    If you lived in a hovel (like Gargamel), no hobbies, no vices, without two nickels to rub together, sure, I get it. But I'd also suggest that video is probably NOT what you should be focusing on right now, you have bigger issues to contend with.

    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    good capture devices are "in danger" because PC's and OS's keep being upgraded,
    newer capture devices/dongles are just not good of quality,
    Yep.

    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    Good TBC devices are also rare, old, or expensive,
    You're overstating it, and far too negative. There's a big difference between acquiring TBCs from a reliable source, and randomly buying crap off eBay. Normally, I'd suggest you only have experience with the latter, but I really think you have experience with neither.

    best second option is using a passthrough dvd-recorder,
    1. You're too haphazard with your advice here. It's not just any random DVD recorder, but a tiny minority of recorders that had the feature.
    2. But those do not contain frame TBC whatsoever. At most, non-TBC frame sync married to line TBC (which is strong+crippled due to anti-copy).
    3. Those all have drawbacks, quality hits. Although a few folks, in recent times, are trying some DIY gear to make those issues lesser, it's still NOT gone. Posterization, luma gain, etc. Messy.

    These devices are ONLY suggested where the net result is better, not as some sort of silly idea about it being a TBC replacement (it's not). That said, if you simply insist on a budget option, the ES10/15 can be paired to items that "also have" (weak) frame TBC functionality. The DVD recorder alone isn't a TBC(ish) setup.

    The more you post, the more I'm realizing that you have very limited knowledge and experience with video. That's fine, but you should be learning, not trying to teach others. Because what you're often doing is spreading myth and misinformation, not actually helping. Newbies helping newbies = blind leading blind, in most cases.
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  17. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    DV is old tech. Not just old, but damned old, to the point of being almost worthless. It was a step back even from VHS in many ways, as it made compromises in quality (blocks, chroma starved).
    Too bad that cash-strapped filmmakers who had avoided consumer analog video formats like a plague during the 1980s and the early 1990s, accepted DV with joy and exuberance the moment it was unveiled. I guess the senior editor of DV Magazine was just duping his readers, and David Lynch should have shot "Inland Empire" on VHS.
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  18. Member pchan's Avatar
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    Just sharing my personal experience capture Video8 -> DV camcorder -> fireware capture aka AV to DV passthru.
    I was experiencing dropped frame issue. Swapped the Sharp ViewcamZ to Sony DCR-HC85E fixed the problem.
    Just a hunch. If you have a spare firewire cable, try swapping it.
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  19. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    I don't know about "no problems", but the video community was fairly wise to the workarounds, and bad hardware at the time (VIA, AMD+, AVer, BT8x8, etc).
    Yes. On my Desktop running Windows98 SE, the motherboard had a VIA chipset, causing congestion of the data in the busses while capturing. Only a specific drivers release was able to fix that.
    Various other combination of motherboards, chipset, cards required specific attention, together with proper setting of slow hard disks. That time is over now.

    And you know you'd drop frames when you'd move the mouse, don't you?
    Not really. Just an exaggeration to stress that a PC for capturing video must be "configured" for capturing video, and used just for capturing video while doing that.

    Too bad that cash-strapped filmmakers who had avoided consumer analog video formats like a plague during the 1980s and the early 1990s, accepted DV with joy and exuberance the moment it was unveiled. I guess the senior editor of DV Magazine was just duping his readers, and David Lynch should have shot "Inland Empire" on VHS.
    We all know that lordsmurf's personal crusade against DV has little sense (except for capturing of analog signals), and DV had its excellent place and still has a (small) place today. But we like him, anyhow
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    Well all this been said, proves my case, (a PC not suitable for capturing) at the moment i think, with the means available to Leanoric, would be record to DVD, and use those MPEG2 files, and see how that comes out, (fine tuning the settings of the DVD-recorder, can help also for better quality)
    this will actually help Leanoric, instead of endless comments to other people, i have only experiences with what works for me, or not, it all comes to: try for yourself, if transfer works with Firewire, you still have large files, capturing analog, gives the option to use lossless compression codecs
    Last edited by Eric-jan; 26th Nov 2022 at 07:41.
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  21. Iíve just recaptured the tape. Better but not perfect. It was fine for about 25 minutes and then dropped 157 frames over the next 10 or so minutes. The tape is actually a mixture of different recordings taken over several months. The frame drops, as far as I can see, seem to happen on one particular part of the tape, filmed abroad on holiday. I dont think frames are dropped on the other parts of the tape but Im not 100% on that.

    Before this capture I turned off wifi, all apps and a couple of background processes.

    There are 51 background processes and 92 window processes running in task manager. Maybe these are causing the frame drops but Iím unsure which ones I can press the end task button on? I googled which ones I could safely turn off and I still had 48 background running and all of the windows processes running while capturing.

    Do you guys turn off all background and widows processes? Will my computer still work ok if I do this?

    One other thing that Iíve noticed is that the captured footage seems to be a lot dimmer. A bright sunny day on the camera screen isnt so bright and sunny on the capture footage.
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  22. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
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    The process with the most % should be turned off, if non essential, also different recordings in one transfer, will mean that there is sync loss between the recordings in your case ? > gaps ? try to transfer the recordings seperate, to avoid any sync loss that way.
    make a screen capture of the task manager info on which processes are running, and post this here, hide any private info in thisÖ
    are some errors maybe caused by movement of the camera while recording ?
    The recordings are no copies ? are there many drop-outs ?
    The "lanes" used by the Firewire card are not used by other important processes ? < maybe change slot for the firewire card..
    Last edited by Eric-jan; 26th Nov 2022 at 09:12.
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  23. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bwaak View Post
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    DV is old tech. Not just old, but damned old, to the point of being almost worthless. It was a step back even from VHS in many ways, as it made compromises in quality (blocks, chroma starved).
    Too bad that cash-strapped filmmakers who had avoided consumer analog video formats like a plague during the 1980s and the early 1990s, accepted DV with joy and exuberance the moment it was unveiled. I guess the senior editor of DV Magazine was just duping his readers, and David Lynch should have shot "Inland Empire" on VHS.
    What a stupid comment.

    In the moment, some people were definitely giddy, bamboozled by new tech. (And FYI, DV Magazine was more like a giant ad for NAB, not as useful as something like Broadcast Engineering or VideoMaker. Most of my DV issues went directly in the trash after a quick browse.)

    In hindsight, it really wasn't all that great, and lots of stuff had to be redone. I know this very well, as that was part of what I did at studios, when it came to digitizing legacy content. When you put that DV content on a modern large HD screen, it too often looked like crap, and you could often tell the colors were fubar.

    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    We all know that lordsmurf's personal crusade against DV
    That statement is ridiculous.

    DV has blocks, and crushes chroma. It's 1990s tech, and trades flaws with DVD. And in the 2020s, DVD is a format that people all seem to hate now, too. Why does DV get a pass? MPEG with more bitrate was vastly superior to DV, and replaced DV by the 2000s. HDV failed, and DV went away.

    NTSC DV is pretty much awful in all regards.
    PAL DV --- and you're a PAL user, not NTSC --- is passably decent.

    I don't hate DV, but I refuse to put lipstick on that pig.

    Use it if you must, but certainly don't use it if there are alternatives available. Stuff shot on MiniDV is obviously not the discussion here, it what it is. Understand the flaws, the problems, and handle it in post as best as you can.

    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    (a PC not suitable for capturing)
    This statement is false and absurd....

    at the moment i think, with the means available to Leanoric, would be record to DVD, and use those MPEG2 files, and see how that comes out, (fine tuning the settings of the DVD-recorder, can help also for better quality)
    this will actually help Leanoric, instead of endless comments to other people, i have only experiences with what works for me, or not, it all comes to: try for yourself, if transfer works with Firewire, you still have large files, capturing analog, gives the option to use lossless compression codecs
    ... but I have no problem with this. I make DVDs for my toons/TV hobby, using LSI-based JVC DVD recorders. It looks good, viewable, enjoyable. It's an acceptable compromise from lossless capture, given the source, the content, and the ROI.

    If Leanoric chooses this path, just realize it needs to be a good DVD recorder, not some random POS. If source is DV tapes (not VHS), then quite a few recorders are fine. Zoran-based recorders from RCA are my top suggestion here.

    Bogilein has discussed several good models before, and he likes a certain Sony in PAL land. I'd investigate that.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 26th Nov 2022 at 09:13.
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    It was fine for about 25 minutes and then dropped 157 frames over the next 10 or so minutes. The tape is actually a mixture of different recordings taken over several months. The frame drops, as far as I can see, seem to happen on one particular part of the tape, filmed abroad on holiday. I dont think frames are dropped on the other parts of the tape but Im not 100% on that.
    The first thing I'd do is do another "capture" with scene detection on. That might reduce the frame drops. Depending on how the breaks between the clips are, I can imagine that whatever software you're using could be having a fit with timecode interruptions/breaks.

    I prefer to capture with scene-splits; you can always join the scenes/clips back up into one DV file afterward.

    I'm not a techo expert but I'd say, if you have a half-decent, modern computer and are capturing to an internal drive, forget killing tasks. I have successfully captured DV and HDV with over 200 processes running. Just leave it alone while it is capturing.

    What software are you using to capture?
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  25. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    That statement is ridiculous.
    What is ridiculous is your crusade against DV. It is and old tech, like MPEG2, for today standards. It had its excellent advantage time ago, and, although I would never use it, it still has an interest today for people willing to convert analog with a loss of quality but with an easy workflow.

    Why does DV get a pass? MPEG with more bitrate was vastly superior to DV
    Non sense. MPEG is (also) an iter-frame compression, DV is intra-frame only. MPEG2 at I-frame only and at the same bitrate of DV (25Mbps) features the same quality than DV, but nobody ever used that because the usage of P-frames and B-frames allowed the usage of a lower bitrate with a small loss of quality.

    but I have no problem with this. I make DVDs for my toons/TV hobby, using LSI-based JVC DVD recorders. It looks good, viewable, enjoyable. It's an acceptable compromise from lossless capture, given the source, the content, and the ROI.
    Like DV captures, at least in PAL world.
    LSI-based JVC DVD recorder are inferior to a lossles captures (obviously) as we experimented here https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12740-current-capture-device-3.html, as it is DV. But the first is not by any mean superior to a DV capture.
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  26. Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    are some errors maybe caused by movement of the camera while recording ?
    I dont thinks so. When the frames are dropping on wintv screen, the film is playing fine on the cameras screen.




    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    If Leanoric chooses this path, just realize it needs to be a good DVD recorder, not some random POS. If source is DV tapes (not VHS), then quite a few recorders are fine. Zoran-based recorders from RCA are my top suggestion here
    I want to try and get them captured correctly to a pc. Theyíll be better future proofed that way as I keep reading about dvdís degrading over time.





    Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    The first thing I'd do is do another "capture" with scene detection on. That might reduce the frame drops. Depending on how the breaks between the clips are, I can imagine that whatever software you're using could be having a fit with timecode interruptions/breaks.

    I prefer to capture with scene-splits; you can always join the scenes/clips back up into one DV file afterward.

    I'm not a techo expert but I'd say, if you have a half-decent, modern computer and are capturing to an internal drive, forget killing tasks. I have successfully captured DV and HDV with over 200 processes running. Just leave it alone while it is capturing.

    What software are you using to capture?
    Yes Iíll give it another go with scene detection on. I turned it off as Iíve never used vdub or have done any type of editing before so was unsure about how to join the scenes up after capture.

    Iím using windv to capture.
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  27. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
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    About the DVD recorder: you use only the MPEG2 files from the discs, you can write/burn onto re writeable discs, or (optical) RAM discs, depending on the optical drive the dvd-recorder has.
    I remember dvd-r's with a thick label surface were the best, and keeping them in a dark place, was a good idea, the cheap discs mostly pulverized, after years, leaving a clear disc behind
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  28. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Leanoric View Post
    Iím using windv to capture.
    Try Sclive with scene detection and without it and report back, After using both for a while I found out that Sclive is more sophisticated than WinDV, So it is possible that Sclive handles frame timing better.
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  29. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    About the DVD recorder: you use only the MPEG2 files from the discs, you can write/burn onto re writeable discs, or (optical) RAM discs, depending on the optical drive the dvd-recorder has.
    I remember dvd-r's with a thick label surface were the best, and keeping them in a dark place, was a good idea, the cheap discs mostly pulverized, after years, leaving a clear disc behind
    I think the OP has made his mind of doing the job the right way, There is no need to keep talking about DVD, Converting DV to mpeg-2 never made sense, Not then, not now.
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  30. mr. Eric-jan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Originally Posted by Eric-jan View Post
    About the DVD recorder: you use only the MPEG2 files from the discs, you can write/burn onto re writeable discs, or (optical) RAM discs, depending on the optical drive the dvd-recorder has.
    I remember dvd-r's with a thick label surface were the best, and keeping them in a dark place, was a good idea, the cheap discs mostly pulverized, after years, leaving a clear disc behind
    I think the OP has made his mind of doing the job the right way, There is no need to keep talking about DVD, Converting DV to mpeg-2 never made sense, Not then, not now.
    I never talked about converting DV to MPEG2, just read the post(s) again. this thread is very messy, rude with name calling, and even off-topic
    Last edited by Eric-jan; 26th Nov 2022 at 15:18.
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