Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
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Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:36.
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I've been away so haven't followed the exchange between Seeker & Bridgy, however I will toss one comment into the discussion and that is that recordings of broadcast media (whether it be FTA, satellite or whatever) are notoriously prone to errors, no matter what hardware you use to record them. One of the strengths of VRD was that it picked up these broadcast recording glitches and corrected them, giving you a summary of what was fixed once it had saved the edited file. This error correction was one of the features that a lot of work was put into when developing VRD. I don't know of another home video editing product that comes close to VRDs proficiency in detecting and correcting recording glitches - after all, the VRD software was actually "VideoReDo TVSuite", which shows it was primarily (?) designed for editing videos recorded off broadcast TV.
This ability will without question will lead to different results when editing & saving videos using other software, which may explain the differences Seeker & Bridgy are getting editing the same files using different software. And VRD aside, all other software will have their own means of detecting & correcting recording glitches (or none at all), thus their saved edits will all be different depending on their error correction features (or lack thereof).
As for windows (sorry, off track), the end of official support for Win10 next year is not the disaster MS and many would have you believe - your computer will not suddenly stop working, nor will your WIn10 machine suddenly be filled with malware. You'll miss new features (or mis-features) and yes, security updates, but the security holes can be patched by decent AV software and you can always subscribe to a non-MS windows patch service. I use 0Patch which ports all the latest MS security patches (win, office etc) to windows versions back to Win95 within 24 hours of the MS release. 0Patch also patches a lot more than just MS software & is cheaper than buying a new Win licence. I ran Win7 on my main pc up until a few months ago when the mobo died & I had to upgrade to Win10. I didn't have a single security breach.
I'll probably skip WIn11 on my main machine, if only because historically every 2nd version of windows is rubbish & the next version fixes the problems. That means Win10 fixed the issues with Win8 and Win12 will fix the issues with WIn11. MS groupies may disagree, but that good-bad cycle has so far held up with every home release version of windows since 1.0 (and yes, I had 1.0, which came on floppy disks, for those who remember what they were).
> Personally i think there are a lot of windows users who just don't know how to use it properly ...
Most computer users don't know how to use computers properly. Just ask any IT expert or repairer.
> .. or they try to play about with it and then have problems afterwards.
Only if they don't create system restore points before doing any tinkering. And/or have a backup clone or image.
If anyone wants details on 0Patch, please PM me since it's off topic. Or just search for it. They have free & paid versions. -
Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:36.
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Where one cuts broadcast recordings at the start & end and also the start & end of ad breaks is rather subjective - different people pick different frames where they do the cuts. This is partially due to probability - with plenty of frames around the desired cut point, the odds that two people will independently pick the same frame to cut is small, even the same person on the same computer with the same software will almost certainly pick different frames to cut when editing a file the 2nd time around (I know I do). But as well as probability, different people may chose different places where they think the cut should be. An example of this would be when snipping out adverts, some would include the few seconds that usually flash up before adverts with the name of the show, others would exclude it. Also, at the start of a show some would cut on the last black frame, others would include a few black frames in the final edit and some would cut on the first non-black frame. End result, almost every time the same broadcast recording is edited & saved, the resulting file size, recording length etc will be slightly different.
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Off Topic so not relevant any more.
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 02:26.
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Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:39. Reason: Off Topic according to complaints made by another member
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Just getting back to this now, after being away. I will look over your results and get back to you, but thanks very much for your efforts on this. Any glitches that I ran into must be attributable to that being a first attempt with the program on my part, and my lack of familiarity with it.When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form. -
I'm just now trying to get caught up on this thread, after being away for a couple days. Your reading of this looks spot on so far, and your surmise that the "blue channel logo" may have to be considered expendable is as well.
The point of this exercise was to take some relatively modest length clip to experiment upon, in order to demonstrate the limits of doing trims that are not limited to a Start or an End on keyframes.
(I don't know whether once the trims have been made, the Start and End points automatically become transformed into keyframes ? May depend on the software ?) I may be misunderstanding details in the thread, but I had thought that it was looking as though LosslessCut could not accurately do its thing on non-keyframes, but that VRD could ? Do it without notable glitches, that is.
More to follow . . . .When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form. -
When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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Yes, that all makes sense. The gear that I use for off-air recordings (Pioneer DVDR) is quite good of its kind, but has its limitations and it is what it is. Although it offers what it claims to be a "Frame Accurate" option, our expert on this subject -- orsetto -- had noted that this is in fact some sort of kludgy workaround, not to be taken literally. Nevertheless, you might be surprised at how often it seems to work, hitting the desired marks with a pretty satisfactory accuracy. But then, often not so much. In this case, the longer section was extracted from a multi-clips transfer, in order to max out the used space on the dual-layer DVD 9 blank. That factor cannot have been helpful. And as I mentioned, I don't have any experience yet to speak of with LosslessCut -- something also not in the plus column.
When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form. -
Glitchy recordings: I use a colossus pcie card to record feeds from a variety of sources including hdmi & composite. It'll also record audio either by cable or optical. Depending on the source every now & then the recorded video will contain errors, all of which VRD can fix, tho' if the error count gets too high I re-record - no one will notice a few lost frames, but a lot of lost frames can be another matter. It's not the card that's causing the glitches but the video feed itself - broadcast media develops glitches in the transmission, be it satellite, terrestrial or wifi/bluetooth. You live with the glitches when watching live, but it's nice to have an option to fix them when digitising the video. I also have a USB tv tuner which can be used for FTA recordings and like the colossus, it sometimes gives glitched recordings. From forums elsewhere I've found that it is hardware independent rather, as I said, it's the feed itself ... thunderstorms, cosmic rays, transmission losses over distance and so forth. The colossus is designed for recording video game playing, either from an xbox/PS or another computer, so the player (and others) can examine someone's game frame by frame in HD or more. Apparently a big thing in the gaming community. Recording broadcast media is a piece of cake for it.
I've not used losslesscut myself and I last looked at TMPGEnc over 20 years ago before I eventually settled on VRD, so I can't comment on their performance. With cloning and imaging I should be able to keep my non-pro VRD licence alive for as long as future versions of windows support VRD and when that support ends, I can always create a VM based on an image of the last version of Windows that supports VRD. I've done that to keep running some old 8 bit software from Win95 days. Still, I'm keeping my eye on the discussion in case of a worst case scenario & I have to find a replacement.
0Patch: Correction - it supports back to WinXP, plus 10,000s of other softwares. It's currently patching 170 processes on my pc, many of which are the latest available versions. Whilst they create patches for older versions of software based on the latest releases, they also create their own patches for vulnerabilities they discover or are published by others which the software developers have not yet addressed. This is especially useful for software that is no longer being developed, like VRD. Note a lot of the 170 processes on my pc it patches are parts of windows. I'm pretty sure I even saw VRD listed in the patched processes. For 0Day exploits, it's quicker to provide patches than MS itself, which only updates once a month - 0patch checks home every hour. 0Patch is designed primarily for the banking sector (think of all the ATMS & efptos machines still running on XP), but they do have home user licences. One caveat with 0Patch, patching is on the fly & not on the hard drive so if you let the licence lapse, you lose any non-free patches that have previously been applied.
TMPGEnc Smart Renderer: The *requirement* to set a "designated output Quality" seems bizarre to me - most (?) video software will allow you to adjust the output quality as an *option* and if you don't set it, it defaults to the "same as the input". The same is even true for still image and audio file editors, the default is the "same as source". And you mentioned trying different qualities ranging from 0-100%. I don't know the software, but common sense would seem to say that 100% would be "same as source" and 0% would be, well, zero, that is, the output file will have no data in it. I tried it with an image editor and yes, the resulting image was a valid jpg file, but there was no image. Evidently TMPGEnc doesn't use common sense when defining the "output quality" since 0% quality gave only a slightly smaller filesize for you.
Off topic: I'm not bothered myself if things drift off topic, however off topic posts run the risk of being nuked by a passing videohelp moderator and such critters do exist .. off topic posts have been nuked in this thread in the past. However since this thread is about VRD & alternatives, discussion of TMPGEnc & losslesscut is very much relevant. -
When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:39. Reason: Off Topic according to complaints made by another member
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LosslessCut is very hit and miss from every test that i have done so far, and i have tested 4 different types of files (yours included) and the output files can have different results depending on the Source file format.
All i can confirm right now is that in every 4k/60p HEVC or AVC file that i have tested so far, if i have made every cut at a Keyframe, the output files are perfect, no glitches or errors on playback, but if i make any cuts between Keyframes, the file image is corrupt, the audio remains in tact.
These are links to 2 of my 4k/60p files that i cut using LosslessCut, these will show you exactly that i mean.
LosslessCut (cut on Keyframes)
Download Link: https://icedrive.net/s/5NhwxVbxDQ6Vfy94gaQbgCuhxiVx
[Attachment 83193 - Click to enlarge]
LosslessCut (cut between Keyframes)
Download Link: https://icedrive.net/s/SfFgNvNGSz4StP5BxYi3V2QD8Ray
[Attachment 83194 - Click to enlarge]
BTW, these files are located in my IceDrive cloud storage service, and usually you can play or preview video files from the link, however IceDrive has not implemented support for playback or preview of HEVC files, so they must be downloaded for playback.Last edited by Bridgy; 29th Oct 2024 at 23:48.
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Me: most (?) video software will allow you to adjust the output quality as an *option* and if you don't set it, it defaults to the "same as the input"
Bridgy: I am not sure what software you are referring to that does this so called "same as the input" file, ....
I said video software, not just editors, let alone smart rendering editors. Yes, VRD does it. But so too does handbrake and even ffmpeg - they ain't editors, but if you don't specify the "output quality", they default to the "same as source". Even little freeware single function video progs such as "Video Flip & Rotate" default to "same as source". Why so few full function editors have trouble doing it is a puzzle, especially since many of them are built around ffmpeg, which does it.
You mentioned with handbrake that you can set the RF factor. I've done handbrake operations and ignored this field and it then "saves as source". At least on the functions I've done ... converting formats, removing pillarboxes, resizing the frame and some other operations.
As for Smart Render, the puzzle is just what they mean by "Output Quality" since 100% should be the same as "same as source" and 0% should be, well, zero. But from the results you got that's obviously not the case. I'd even accept that it doesn't do smart rendering and instead recodes the whole video file when you snip bits out and that can result in different file sizes ... but with any other piece of software selecting the equivalent of "Output Quality" of 0% will give you a file that's close to 0 bytes (not zero since it's contain details on the file format, which all files do other than ".txt" [on windoze]) and selecting 50% will give you a filesize somewhere midway between 0 bytes and the original unedited filesize. That's not the case with Smart Render so one has to wonder just what "Output Quality" does, if anything. Maybe it's a placeholder for an experimental feature that's not yet implemented? I've seen that before. -
Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:40. Reason: Off Topic according to complaints made by another member
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My comment was about video manipulation software, not specifically editing software (tho' technically any software that changes the video is an editor). When I said "save as source" I mean the frame rate, frame size & bit rates are all kept much the same in the saved file. Those three things are what determines the actual quality of a video. If you open a file with handbrake and save it as a different format and change no other settings other than the "save as" file type, then the saved file will have essentially the same frame rate, frame size & bit rate, that is, the quality is "same as source".
My point being that many video manipulation programs will do whatever they do and save the video preserving the frame rate, frame size & bit rate without the user having to specify anything about the quality of the saved file and that is the default. Even ffmpeg does that. So it seems odd that Smart Render doesn't.
Anyway, I'm really just nit picking at what seems an odd feature of Smart Render and one that doesn't make much sense (0% quality giving a file only slightly smaller than the original f'instance). -
It is very easy to see if an encode is a smart render or not. If the encoding frame rate is in the order of thousands, then it's a smart-render. If it's in the order of hundreds, then it's a full encode.
VRD HD smart renders are regularly 2-3000 frames per sec for me, whereas a full recode is ~300 frames per second. -
That is no rare feat at all: I can do that all the time with Machete, with the results most often being free of glitches that I would consider disconcerting or unacceptable.
Originally Posted by MarayongWhen in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form. -
That rule of thumb should prove very useful, and basically answers a question I'd posed earlier. That said, the output files from my converter programs (which are typically converting HEVC files to standard MP4 H264, because only one of my playback-to-bigscreen-tv options supports HEVC, and I'd rather default to that standard MP4) seem to suffer no appreciable diminution in quality. The video files may have increased in size by a factor of 2.5 to 4, since HEVC had a major compression advantage. I would have selected "retain original quality" or "retain original resolution" in the conversion settings, for whatever that's worth. But re-encoding must have occurred in those cases. In the case of material edited by Machete or other software I have on hand (not including LosslessCut or VRD in this) the end results from keyframe edits has also been very acceptable -- for me. This may have something to do with my best playback option -- plasma panels -- topping out at 1080P ? But that has been plenty good enough, and not inducing me to consider upgrading to better, more state of the art gear.
When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form. -
Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:41. Reason: Off Topic according to complaints made by another member
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Here you go, Bridgy:
What CPU and graphics have you got in your computer.
On the Save Video screen, provided you don't have "major recode required" at the bottom, you'll be smart-rendering.
When it runs, my CPU increases by around 10%, GPU, nothing. However, for full renders, I have this set in Tools>GPU Encoders:
Intel QuickSync
1. Implementation setting: Auto (the clipboard readout shows 3)
2. QuickSync hardware surface type: Any (the clipboard readout shows 256)
NVIDIA NVEnc
1. Device: NVIdia GeForce RTX 3060Ti (the clipboard readout shows 0)
2. NVEnc hardware surface type: CUDA (the clipboard readout shows 2)
When I do a full render, the UHD770 gets flogged: 80%, the 3060 stays dormant and the CPU goes up ~10%.
What were the attributes of the Youtube Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8v2fgC4hhY&t=10499s
I don't have the original any more, but the MediaInfo of the smart-render is:
Code:General Complete name : F:\Family Videos\2024 Family Videos\20241026 717 Final Pax Flight\Last 717 Pax flight Sydsquad YT.mp4 Format : MPEG-4 Format profile : Base Media Codec ID : isom (isom/iso2/avc1/mp41) File size : 1.35 GiB Duration : 42 min 19 s Overall bit rate : 4 574 kb/s Frame rate : 60.000 FPS Writing application : VideoReDo (Lavf58.29.100) Video ID : 1 Format : AVC Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec Format profile : High@L4.2 Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames Format settings, CABAC : Yes Format settings, Reference frames : 3 frames Codec ID : avc1 Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding Duration : 42 min 19 s Bit rate : 4 426 kb/s Nominal bit rate : 3 150 kb/s Width : 1 920 pixels Height : 1 080 pixels Display aspect ratio : 16:9 Frame rate mode : Constant Frame rate : 60.000 FPS Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Progressive Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.036 Stream size : 1.31 GiB (97%) Writing library : x264 core 160 r3000 Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=4 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=20 / lookahead_threads=5 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=300 / keyint_min=30 / scenecut=0 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=20 / rc=abr / mbtree=1 / bitrate=3150 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=62499 / vbv_bufsize=11719 / nal_hrd=none / filler=0 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00 Color range : Limited Color primaries : BT.601 PAL Transfer characteristics : BT.709 Matrix coefficients : BT.601 Menus : 3 Codec configuration box : avcC Audio ID : 2 Format : AAC LC Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity Codec ID : mp4a-40-2 Duration : 42 min 19 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 128 kb/s Channel(s) : 2 channels Channel layout : L R Sampling rate : 44.1 kHz Frame rate : 43.066 FPS (1024 SPF) Compression mode : Lossy Stream size : 38.8 MiB (3%) Default : Yes Alternate group : 1 Menus : 3 Menu #1 ID : 3 Format : txet Codec ID : txet Duration : 42 min 19 s Language : English Bit rate mode : CBR Menu For : 1,2 Duration_FirstFrame : -1359986 Bit rate mode : Constant Menu #2 00:00:00.000 : Chapter 1 00:09:50.001 : Chapter 2
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Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:42. Reason: Off Topic according to complaints made by another member
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Thanks Bridgy, I don't have that screen; I'm only on the standard version, not Pro.
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Well that is odd, that Profile setting box with all those settings tabs was in my VRD Non Pro version years ago, it should be in all of the output presets or profiles, regardless if Pro or not.
EDIT: i just thought about this, do you, or did you actually create a custom profile for your smart renders which you can saved in the normal VRD output profiles list, maybe you just import your file and make your settings each time you need it, but even if you set your output manually each time, there should still be a setting to select Software over Hardware.Last edited by Bridgy; 31st Oct 2024 at 03:11.
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I've got various options on the Profile button when saving, but none regarding CPU/GPU that I can see.
For smart renders, I don't touch anything. Occasionally I do MPEG2 to H264, then I adjust the output settings to what I want. -
Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:43.
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Is that merely a descriptive list, or does it provide all the Settings / Parameters selections you are using, should anyone wish to emulate and use them ?
It appears unlikely, but in the event VRD got a second life as a viable product for sale (and support), I hope this would receive a prominent announcement here. As things stand, I think it would be a dubious proposition for people to attempt to buy into a moribund program -- assuming that it is still even being sold.When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form. -
Removed all my comments due to being OFF TOPIC
Last edited by Bridgy; 2nd Nov 2024 at 01:43.
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