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  1. Member
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    Hi, My TBC-1000 gave up on me yesterday. I've set up my back up TCB-1000 but the blue screen looks a bit noisier than my original one did, although it doesn't seem to affect the capture. Any advice would be grateful. Thanks.
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  2. I don't see anything unusual, but we can't compare with your previous captures......
    Different / lower quality cables (screenings)?
    Last edited by Sharc; 13th Sep 2022 at 06:33.
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  3. I don't know if it's normal for that device but there is some herringbone noise in all three channels, Y:U:V:
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    Thanks Sharc, I've upload a clip from the previous TBC's recording to compare. Everything is the same including all the cables and power adapter just the TBC unit that's different. I'm happy with both TBC's recordings it was just the noise on the blue screen that worried me on the previous clip. We had this annoying habit of never fully rewinding to the previous recording hence the blue gaps.
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    Thanks jagabo. It's the noise that worried me. I'm just hoping it was at a manageable level to capture?
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  6. I wouldn't worry about it. It appears to be limited the the blue screen generated by the player(?). It's quite common.
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    Thanks Jagabo. Really, that would be great news. My player is a Sony TRV-120E I thought the captures looked ok, but experienced people like yourself know what is passable and what isn't.
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    I've just captured this just checking again to put my mind to rest. That it's an acceptable capture. Thanks.
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  9. Originally Posted by SkyBlues2021 View Post
    I've just captured this just checking again to put my mind to rest. That it's an acceptable capture. Thanks.
    I don't see a problem with noise. However, I would try to work on the levels. The whites are crushed/clipped (overexposed video or capture levels settings?) and the blacks seem too elevated and should be lowered IMO. For example, the black side bars are at luma 36 instead of 16. The crushed whites mask any details in the bright areas. Maybe difficult/impossible to improve if it is like this on the original. What is lost can't be recovered....
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by Sharc; 14th Sep 2022 at 07:47.
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  10. Yes, black levels too high and crushed brights. Adjusting the capture device's Proc amp should help.
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    Thanks Sharc, Thank you for the advice. I set the levels on my pinnacle 710 capture card and everything was in the safe zone, however I will check it again. I'm guessing my original recording wasn't the best. Would you adjust the elevated blacks post capture?
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    Thanks jagabo. I've set my pinnacle 710 card at +3 brightness -18 contrast for this capture, on some other tapes -16. I adjust to to the histogram on virtualdub after cropping. Any advice would be welcome.
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  13. Originally Posted by SkyBlues2021 View Post
    Would you adjust the elevated blacks post capture?
    Possible, yes. It is however usuallly better to set the levels correctly by means of your TBC-1000 or other proc-amp for best exploitation of the A/D conversion of your capturing device. Not too critical for SD/VHS video though as long as you stay within the 16....235 luma range.
    Fine tuning in post processing may still be recommended though in order to legalize the colors.

    Edit: reading your post #12 I would definitely not increase the brightness but rather reduce it to set the luma of the black side bars to 16, then play with contrast and possibly saturation. I don't have the pinnacle, so thats just my speculation.
    Last edited by Sharc; 14th Sep 2022 at 08:44.
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    Thanks Sharc. I will play with the proc amp levels again, maybe I'm being too safe with +3 brightness -18 contrast maybe I should get closer to the virtualdub histograms red zone?
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  15. Originally Posted by SkyBlues2021 View Post
    Thanks Sharc. I will play with the proc amp levels again, maybe I'm being too safe with +3 brightness -18 contrast maybe I should get closer to the virtualdub histograms red zone?
    I am not very familiar with VirtualDub capturing and filtering, but as far as I understand VirtualDub works mostly in RGB color space, hence you could exploit the full 0....255 range in the histogram (i.e. including the red zone). The black side borders should be (0,0,0) in RGB.
    But caution, someone else can probably provide better help on VirtualDub and how to interpret its histogram functionality.
    Last edited by Sharc; 14th Sep 2022 at 09:26.
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  16. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    In VirtualDub the capture is (generally) done in YUV colorspace, same as AmarecTV and others.

    The "capture range" should be adapted to the one of the capture card. If the card can capture 0-255 (very rare) you capture that. The Pinnacle 710 can only capture 16-~250 range, so you should tune the internal procamp, or better the external devices if possible, to capture 16-~250.

    The histograms of the capture do not show crushing of the blacks but rather a narrow captured range, because your settings.
    However, as Sharc properly noticed, there is a high concentration of whites around Y=227. It may be related to the nature of the shot and its overexposure, more than to the captured levels.

    Image
    [Attachment 66781 - Click to enlarge]


    Image
    [Attachment 66783 - Click to enlarge]


    edit: fixed wrong image
    Last edited by lollo; 14th Sep 2022 at 11:46.
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    Thanks Sharc & lollo. I had a play with the proc amp settings on my pinnacle 710 yesterday. To stay out of the red area on the virtualdub histogram throughout a 1 hour tape, which has terrible 1990's 60w lighting and outdoor scenes, I found +3 brightness -16 seemed to work. I could expand it slightly with an occasional wander in the red zone if you think overall this would improve the video?
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  18. Here a pretty much vain attempt to "fix" the brights of the clip in post#8 using retinex, in the hope to "recover" some more details and colors in the overexposed parts.

    Script:
    Code:
    AVISource("TAPE 5 again3.00.avi")
    
    converttoYV16(interlaced=true,matrix="Rec601")
    assumeFPS(25)
    trim(84,0)
    clip=last
    
    #retinex with luma mask:
    lmask=clip.mt_binarize(threshold=210,upper=true).converttoYV12(interlaced=true).GaussianBlur(varY=2000.0)    # build a mask based on luma
    overlay(clip, converttoYV24(interlaced=true).MSRCP(fulls=false,fulld=false,lower_thr=0.0,upper_thr=0.0001,chroma_protect=3), mask=lmask)
    
    #level adjustments
    smoothlevels(input_low=40,gamma=0.9,input_high=225,output_low=0,output_high=255)
    smoothtweak(contrast=0.9,saturation=0.9)
    
    StackHorizontal(clip.histogram().subtitle("  original"), last.histogram().subtitle("  retinex with mask"))
    
    #for x264 encoding:
    convertbits(8)
    converttoYV12(interlaced=true)
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    Last edited by Sharc; 16th Sep 2022 at 05:02. Reason: (interlaced=true) added in the script
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  19. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    I could expand it slightly with an occasional wander in the red zone if you think overall this would improve the video?
    If you stay out the red area is safe, because you are capturing in 16-235 YUV range.

    Your card can capture higher on the high range, so you could set the procamp to limit the white levels to something like 245/250 instead of 235.
    This will allow you to use the full range of the capture card, i.e. 16-245/250., reducing the "strength" of the procamp shrink (which is done in the digital world, and then introducing side effects).
    On the other hand, if you need a post-processing requiring a YUV-RGB conversion, you need anyhow to compress the YUV range to 16-235 before filtering, but this can be done in a more accurate way in AviSynth for example. But that's another story.

    Finally, you can choose the easier way, and capture in 16-235 YUV range without a significant impact.
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    Overexposed white is a pain while capturing videotapes especially when you know you can avoid it.

    I only have the Pinnacle 500 UB and no Pinnacle 710 capture card. With the pinnacle 500 the capture range is only 16-235 everything else is clipped. You have to adjust the levels to stay in the safe range with the contrast/brightness settings for the capture. The Pinnacle 500/710 should actually use the same chipset (Marvin) I think that also the 710 can only record in the range 16-235.

    But I think that the clipping already happens before or is already stored on the tape so.

    Clipping can already happen during playback.

    Or your external TBC or the capture card are responsible for it if it is not already stored on your tape.

    I would record the tape again without your TBC-1000 to exclude the TBC as the cause.
    If the TBC is not responsible for the clipping, try using a different player.

    Which playback device do you use?

    If it is a JVC/Panasonic video recorder from 1999, I would blame them for the clipping.

    I have already demonstrated clipping on digitalfaq with a number of different PAL video devices.

    https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/10658-luminance-clipping-capture.html

    My experience is based on PAL equipment and the result depends on your tapes (the video content, the recording device, condition of the tapes...).
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    Thanks Sharc. The colours in the retinex did make the clip look more natural, I will try to redo this scene and adjust the levels for just this scene.
    Thanks lollo. I think on most tapes I will be using Avisynth & then virtualdub so I will have a YUV-RBG conversion. Today I captured at +5 brightness -16 so hopefully that has opened up the range somewhat? Maybe I'm being too safe but on some 1 hours tapes I have many different indoor & outdoor scenes.
    Thanks, Bogilien. I'm using a Sony TRV-120E camcorder. In your experiment at first I couldn't see the difference, my old eyes! However when I realised the writing had disappeared and the pitch markings also it makes me realise how much detail can be lost. I will redo this scene and see if I can get better results.
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  22. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    Bogilein is right, the Pinnacle 710 can only capture 16-235 range and not 16-250 as I said.
    Evidences in the following pictures, analyzing few Pinnacle 710 captures in some threads I participated in the past.
    You need then to capture in 16-235 range, to do not crush the blacks and clip the whites.

    Click image for larger version

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    Click image for larger version

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ID:	66825

    In following example you can see the benefit of not clipping the whites while capturing (some details are not erased): https://imgsli.com/MTI1Njkw

    The full thread is here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12124-710-usb-software.html
    Last edited by lollo; 16th Sep 2022 at 17:32.
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    Thanks lollo. I will make sure I stay within that range. I do think this clip of mine is just overexposed film but I will try to capture it again.
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  24. Originally Posted by SkyBlues2021 View Post
    .... Today I captured at +5 brightness -16 so hopefully that has opened up the range somewhat? Maybe I'm being too safe but on some 1 hours tapes I have many different indoor & outdoor scenes.....
    Actually your settings (+x, -y) do not tell us much. You should provide samples (few seconds).
    It is still unclear IMO where your crushed brights and elevated blacks come from. If the crushing of the brights is on the tapes (likely case) there is not much one can do about this, other than properly adjust the levels to span the 16 .... 235 luma range adequately, and eventually apply some post processing for obtaining pleasing-to-taste results.

    If the clipping/crushing of the brights is not on the source you should try to find out which device (player, TBC-1000, capture device) causes it. Therefore Bogilein's hint to make a test capture without the TBC (and with default "proc-amp" settings to begin with) and post the result.

    Something else just crosses my mind:
    You wrote that your tape player is a SONY TRV120E. I don't have this camera but what I see from the manual it supports Digital8. Is the video format on the tape Digital8 or analog Video8/Hi8? If it is Digital8 you should consider transferring the data in digital format via iLink (DV, Firewire, IEEE-1394) to the PC and make the tweaks in post processing, rather than going via S-Video through unnecessary D-A-D .... conversions. Consult the manual.
    Your PC would need a Firewire/IEEE1394 port. External Firewire-to-USB adaptors have a poor reputation according to many reviews.
    Last edited by Sharc; 17th Sep 2022 at 04:59.
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  25. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    only capture 16-235 range
    Just to add, to clarify, that's the legal range. Anything 0-15,236-255 is illegal values, and will usually be truncated later post-capture (edit, encode, view, whatever). When you have sources with illegal value, you have to acquire one of the few devices that allow it, then properly shift it back legal.

    This site was really bad about misconstruing 16-235 / 0-255 in years past.

    Illegal capturing isn't really a good thing, something we all ran into with DVD recorders (bad truncates).

    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    I am not very familiar with VirtualDub capturing and filtering, but as far as I understand VirtualDub works mostly in RGB color space, hence you could exploit the full 0....255 range
    Almost never.

    VirtualDub has the option to expand/shrink black/white points, but it usually does nothing (for this truncate issue) because the loss was in the hardware, not software.
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    Thanks Sharc. I will post a clip of a couple of recent captures shortly. My tapes are video8 most of my tapes have portions of overexposed and underexposed scenes. We always seemed to find the wrong position to record with incorrect camera settings.
    Thanks Lordsmurf. I believe I've stayed within the 16-235 range. I haven't let the histogram enter the red zone, hopefully my clip will bear this out.
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    I posted two clips hopefully both within the 16-235 range. Thanks.
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  28. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    only capture 16-235 range
    Just to add, to clarify, that's the legal range. Anything 0-15,236-255 is illegal values, and will usually be truncated later post-capture (edit, encode, view, whatever). When you have sources with illegal value, you have to acquire one of the few devices that allow it, then properly shift it back legal.
    Yes, in YUV color space for TV (limited) range which is standard for TV broadcast, DVD, Blu-ray, capturing to YUV, etc. etc.).
    Less-than-perfect footage may however in practice exhibit transient luma over- and undershoot (e.g. halos/filter ringing at sharp high contrast edges) which either fall outside the legal (16 .... 235) luma range or are hard clipped at 16, 235. In such case it is often preferred to accept the transient overshoot or clipping, rather than to ultimately force everything back into the legal (16 ...235) range and - worst case - accept a "washed out" picture instead.
    Of course, it is still better to avoid (or fix) such imperfections and artifacts a priori.
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  29. Originally Posted by SkyBlues2021 View Post
    I posted two clips hopefully both within the 16-235 range. Thanks.
    They are well within legal luma range but deserve some post processing IMO.
    Test 17-09.avi looks oversaturated to me, and the black level is still too high.
    Test 17-09 2.avi looks somewhat washed out to me, for reasons similar as described in my previous post. Don't let the noise - especially the dark undershoots of the text outline - fool the appropriate levels range.

    Both videos can however be adjusted to taste with post processing. So nothing is lost I think

    Added:
    Proposal for the 2nd clip (I left it interlaced) with less washed-out colors (a matter of personal preference as well, of course):
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    Last edited by Sharc; 19th Sep 2022 at 02:59. Reason: file attached
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    Thanks Sharc. Thank you for your observations, I wouldn't disagree with anything you said. I do crop the borders & switching out before using the histogram to set the levels on virtualdub.
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