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  1. Member
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    Hello,

    Naive question. When studios release a dvd or BD of a UK concert than was originally filmed on 16mm (and I assume @25fps) do they do separate renders for each region?

    I have the NTSC 2004 dvd & BD of a 1970 Isle of Wight concert where I can see ghosting (or frame blending). Would the PAL dvd or BD of the same release have the correct frame rate (or at least the BD have 25P)? The US BD is 1080i. I assume it's interlaced because the original source is 25fps.

    All home releases have rearranged the track order and the BD has a few extra tracks not on the laserdisc or dvd, but unfortunately the BD is cropped for widescreen.

    I want to make a composite project restoring the original track order, the missing tracks from the BD, and restoring the original frame rate which I believe will resolve the frame blending. Just not sure which dvd source I should use (if indeed the PAL release has the original frame rate).
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  2. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    There are certain professional production rules of thumb that would lend weight to the probability of doing productions in a certain way in a certain region and for a certain target audience/medium. These have been talked about here and elsewhere on the net ad nauseum.

    But I wouldn't assume anything was done a certain way, as there are MANY exceptions, due to budget & legal constraints, loss of certain types of masters, international disputes and censorship, new methods of technology transfer, change of ownership with accompanying change in distribution strategy...
    With all that in mind, it is always a bit of detective work to determine the provenance of a production.

    The answer to the topic question is "it depends".

    Scott
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    Since HD TV sets allow a wide spectrum of video standards, mostly independent of the power line frequency, Blu-ray productions can be the same for the whole world. Still, I would not be surprised about regional preferences. Video cameras can still be bound to regional electricity and video standards instead of cinematic ones and produce PAL or NTSC instead of film related frame rates.

    In times of SD CRT TV sets, DVD productions were bound to regional power line frequencies and related video standards. Region 1 (USA, Canada +) contains mainly countries with NTSC video based on (almost) 60 Hz, Region 2 (Europe, Japan, Middle East, South Africa, etc.) mainly countries with PAL (or SECAM as similar video signal standard for the player output) based on 50 Hz.

    Wikipedia: DVD region code 3.1 - PAL/SECAM vs. NTSC

    In addition, there were also specific differences for DVD Video players between PAL and NTSC if the support of MPEG2 audio was implemented and Dolby Digital was mandatory or optional...
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  4. Member DB83's Avatar
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    BTW If the original was filmed 16mm it would not be 25 fps. It would be 24 fps.

    So PAL speed up also comes in to the frame.
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    Accordingly, for NTSC DVD, it required Telecine (but soft TC, calculated in the DVD player, was supported, the player just would not produce progressive film output as no consumer TV set would natively expect it in those times).
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    I forgot to mention I have the footage on my NLE and am viewing frame by frame and certain frames are blended.

    @Scott: I just assumed the filmmakers still own the negative. I know this concert was not released until 1996. But like you said; many factors.

    @DB83: wow do I feel stupid. I assumed Europe was 25fps for 16mm and US/Canada was 24fps. Had no idea all standard 16mm is 24fps.

    @LigH.de: I knew for the dvd the footage went through a telecine process, but the BD is also interlaced, and now that I know it was filmed at 24fps and not 25, I figured the BD should be 1080 24P. I'd like to convert the footage back to 24P for fun and giggles for a 720 24p project I want to do.
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  7. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    ALL standard pro analog celluloid film shoots (whether 16mm, 35mm/Super35, or 65/70mm) are 24fps. There have been exceptions (e.g. Todd-AO, Showscan, HFR-48, etc).

    Digital Cinema has options for other framerates (23.976 pulled down, 25, 30, 48, 50, 59.94, 60, etc), and both types also often allow for short bursts of higher or lower framerates to enable special motion effects (slomo, fastmo). But even they still try to keep standardized.

    Scott

    <edit>Sorry, accidentally put 25 in at first. </edit>
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  8. Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    ALL standard pro analog celluloid film shoots (whether 16mm, 35mm/Super35, or 65/70mm) are 24fps. There have been exceptions (e.g. Todd-AO, Showscan, HFR-48, etc).
    That's true in the U.S., but we're talking about something that was filmed in Europe, so there would be nothing strange about it being 25fps.
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  9. Member DB83's Avatar
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    A little 'detective work'

    Would these dvd BD be "The Who" ?


    If so there is no PAL release. Quite common for music dvds to be released as NTSC (as long as there is no region/zone coding)


    You should be able to confirm whether you have 1080i or 1080p. If I am, myself, not being stupid (and I usually have atleast one such episode per day) 24 fps BD would be progressive whereas 29.97 fps would be interlaced.
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  10. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Luke M View Post
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    ALL standard pro analog celluloid film shoots (whether 16mm, 35mm/Super35, or 65/70mm) are 24fps. There have been exceptions (e.g. Todd-AO, Showscan, HFR-48, etc).
    That's true in the U.S., but we're talking about something that was filmed in Europe, so there would be nothing strange about it being 25fps.
    25fps is more common, but for pros, it still isn't as common as 24 (with subsequent speedup to 25 when shown on consumer media). Movie theaters around the world still vastly use ONLY 24fps.
    (If you know my history, you know I wish that would/will change)


    Scott
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Would these dvd BD be "The Who"? If so there is no PAL release.
    Yes, The Who Isle of Wight 1970. There actually is a PAL dvd of this released in 1996. But now that I know the concert was filmed at 24 I'll try and convert the VOB dvd & M2ts BD to 23.976.
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  12. Member DB83's Avatar
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    ^^ NP. I know this is not relevant nut the only release I could find from 1996 (there were later PAL ones) was NTSC
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    Image
    [Attachment 65566 - Click to enlarge]


    This is a German dvd. Would this be 25fps?
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  14. Member DB83's Avatar
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    ^^ That would not be a German dvd. The '15' is a BBFC ( British Board of Film Classification) logo.Like I said, there are various later PAL releases and, like this one, would be 25 fps. Whether they originated from an earlier NTSC version one would only be able to tell from playback (Then you could get some frame-blending)
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  15. Member DB83's Avatar
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    I believe this is the link I saw that quoted '1996' (but even that appears spurious) - click on the 'dvd' bit and scroll down to detail.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Live-Festival-1970-Blu-ray-Region/dp/B001HYY33I/ref=tmm_blu_s...852557&sr=1-17


    Here is a version for the German market. Again @ 25 fps


    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Live-Isle-Wight-Festival/dp/B000HXDLWO/ref=pd_sbs_sccl_1_...00HXDLWO&psc=1
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    The back cover states: "Picture format: PAL" (and has some kind of PAL logo). So I would assume 25 fps, yes. But it could be the result of a norm conversion.
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