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  1. Also to mention that - in addition to reducing line jitter and flagging - a DVD recorder in passthrough (as "TBC substitue") usually helps to better separate luma from chroma, hence reducing rainbows and dotcrawl, when one is forced to capture composite video rather than S-video.
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  2. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    Amazing. In reality, a frame with distorded geometry is a major problem for a capture.
    Remember, he's a VH troll.
    He came to this forum not long ago, asking newbie questions, and he's now an instant expert. Ridiculous.
    "Use this super-cheap crappy device. Best ever! Here's my sample of how good it is!"
    And then the sample is crap.
    Cue excuses on why crap is acceptable.
    Ad nauseam.

    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    This isn't about TBC.
    We know, so what? I was just saying that a lineTBC, and a Y/C signal, is needed
    But sadly, not everybody knows this.
    Some actually argue it, because apparently every hobby and forum needs a contrarian to dispute facts.

    IOData GV-USB ... I'm also not yet convinced it properly does NTSC captures (not NTSC-J, which is clearly does being Japanese).
    Do a search and you will find examples for NTSC as well.
    P.S. there is no need to lower other cards to support your sales, we all know your cards are good. Just are not the only option.
    In the past 10-15 years, I've tried far too many "good" cards for suggestions on sites, only to be disappointed too often. Some good, most bad. Yes, it's about absolute image quality, but also criteria such as audio processing (+/- handling, often bad) and skew, OS/driver issues, and even resale in more recent years.

    The day is coming when I'll be out of cards, and the well runs dry. This has happened with many cards already, some I've not seen in months or even years. So do realize I'm always looking for what else exists. Sadly, it's slim pickings.

    I'm glad that GV-USB is working for you, but NTSC is still suspect on it. Jury is out. It's not dismissing the card, but it's a warning to proceed with care. Anybody looking for "one card to rule them all" for NTSC may be disappointed, especially after the hassle it may take to acquire. That's all this is.

    Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    In my view, "acquiring or reselling" are not "drawbacks" of this stick.
    For you, for me ... not so much for others. Not these days.

    It is a cinch to set up, far, far easier than trying to set up and run AVISynth for example (heaven forbid QTGMC), which you guys champion.
    Replacing parts of the engine on a car is probably easier than setting up QTGMC. But it's all relative. Neither are necessarily fun operations, but it's required for tasks. It is what it is. If you choose to process video, that's the tool you often need. If it's "too hard", then pay somebody, or just don't do it. I can't rebuild engines, so those are my options.

    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Also to mention that - in addition to reducing line jitter and flagging - a DVD recorder in passthrough (as "TBC substitue") usually helps to better separate luma from chroma, hence reducing rainbows and dotcrawl, when one is forced to capture composite video rather than S-video.
    Comb filter. JVC non-TBC S-VHS are known to do this well.

    Some DVD recorders process composite internally, so be very careful assuming it happens on all units that can passthrough. If you stick to DVD-only Panasonic ES10/15 type units, it will often work decently. (Just be aware that DVD recorders are not TBCs, not TBC "replacements", there are downsides to this method, quality hits. That can matter, especially for editing and restoration.)

    (I'm fairly certain you know this sharc, but written for benefit of other readers. )
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  3. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Replacing parts of the engine on a car is probably easier than setting up QTGMC. But it's all relative. Neither are necessarily fun operations, but it's required for tasks. It is what it is. If you choose to process video, that's the tool you often need. If it's "too hard", then pay somebody, or just don't do it. I can't rebuild engines, so those are my options.
    I wouldn't say I can design a car since I'm not in the design/manufacturing dept. but rather in the service/warranty dept and know its internals. and I can use SolidWorks and CAD as a part of my mechanical engineering degree but setting up QTGMC on a Win 10 machine was a workout, That I agree.
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  4. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Remember, he's a VH troll. He came to this forum not long ago, asking newbie questions, and he's now an instant expert. Ridiculous.
    Resorting to personal attacks when being unable to reply with a technical answer, so boring. Come back when you figure out what was wrong with them calculations.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    "Use this super-cheap crappy device. Best ever! Here's my sample of how good it is!"
    Is this supposed to be a quotation, or is it your flowery interpretation? Intentionally distorting and denigrating what other people say will not help you sell your wares.

    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    But, on top of all, do not forget that a not optimal post-processing like leaving interlaced frames or residual combing can be fixed at any time, while a capture with a distorted frame cannot be corrected.
    That's fine. It is not that bad, and it is not like I am capturing anything precious or doing it as a paying job. Compared to many a YouTube video, mine look good enough.

    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Also to mention that - in addition to reducing line jitter and flagging - a DVD recorder in passthrough (as "TBC substitue") usually helps to better separate luma from chroma, hence reducing rainbows and dotcrawl, when one is forced to capture composite video rather than S-video.
    I went out and got myself an SVHS VCR. So I have S-Video now. And I have that TBC-ish AverMedia card, which is far from perfect, but helps with overly gross skewing.
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  5. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Well the OP may now be on valium since much that has been posted has zilch to answer his question (even if there was no simple answer to his question)

    And the chances are that the topic is another candidate for closure for these reasons. WTF has this forum become ?
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  6. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Remember, he's a VH troll. He came to this forum not long ago, asking newbie questions, and he's now an instant expert. Ridiculous.
    Resorting to personal attacks
    denigrating what other people say
    And now, cue attempt to play the victim. Rinse, repeat. I see through your BS. Others do too.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    And the chances are that the topic is another candidate for closure for these reasons. WTF has this forum become ?
    Too much buying cheap Chinese crap from Amazon, then defending the purchase. Some folks try to turn VH into a race to the bottom, blind leading the clueless, but some of us will resist that noise, continue to give good advice.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 19th Jun 2022 at 23:03. Reason: typo
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  7. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Too much buying cheap Chinese crap from Amazon, then defending the purchase. Some folks try to turn VH into a race to the bottom, blind leading the clueless, but some of us will resist that noise, continue to give good advice.
    It is hard to score a $3K "workflow" sale when clueless folks buy cheap Chinese crap from Amazon, eh?
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  8. Just hopping in to say I would personally not recommend the Dazzle, although this is coming from my limited experience. I got a Dazzle DVC100 for free secondhand from a friend and have had every problem under the sun with it, comparing side by side with GV-USB2 the Dazzle had a ton of frame drop issues and I also couldn't get its audio to work. Couldn't get S-Video input to work either, only composite. It's possible some of this is a combination of user error I haven't ironed out and driver/software/OS stuff, or maybe this unit is defective; but having now played with 3 capture cards this one has given me the most problems by far.

    On the other hand I do like its colors a lot better than GV-USB2, although that may be something that could be dealt with in post if the capture is good. Haven't tested it that rigorously and don't pretend to be an expert. But in fairness that did jump out at me as a comparative plus.
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    One thing that would nice to know is whether the USB devices allow you to capture lossles, and/or if a H/W encoder (ie., to mpeg-2) is included in
    the device. It's hard to get this info from review site's and questions and answers on Amazon or elsewhere.

    I was looking at the Avermedia c039 EZmaker and the Diamond MM VC500. At first glance they appear to be mpeg-2 only,
    but it's not clear, maybe somebody here knows.

    I used to use an Avermedia m780 addon card, allowed uncompressed via Vdub or AmarecTV, or you can activate the H/W mpeg-2
    encoder by using their own sofware. But this is the kind of info I only found out about once I got the card!
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  10. I suggested buying a used DVC100 for $15 on eBay instead of shelling out $90 for a NIB Elgato. It works for me, composite, S-Video and audio. I am using it on Windows 7 capturing with VirtualDub2. Moreover, I bought another one - also used - in case my Dazzle bricks when I need to digitize a Macrovision-protected movie. I understand it may not work for everyone. Some people may prefer ATI AIW
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  11. Oh I definitely wouldn't recommend the Elgato in OP either.

    I am unfortunately on Win10 (been looking into building a capture PC with 7 or installing a VM but that's neither here nor there) - possibly my Dazzle issues are related to OS compatibility. Depending on OP's system they may want to take that into account.

    I'm curious about the potential issues with GV-USB2 for NTSC. I have one and that's the standard I've been using it for. Any way I can help test that? I've found the card to be extremely reliable and easy to use, although I'm mostly moving away from it to using the onboard Hauppauge WinTV HVR 1250 I got for free on Craigslist lolol. That card's been awesome for me. But less accessible to some due to many reasons including not being a USB device.

    Recommendations vary a lot based on intended use, budget, other hardware... but I would super generically recommend the GV-USB2 for a USB device that captures well on Win10 at least. User experience was most painless with that card even if I prefer others for other reasons. Only major drawback is driver install is in Japanese
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    Only major drawback is driver install [GV-USB2] is in Japanese
    https://iotku.pw/gvusb2-guide/

    Another thing to note is that the GV-USB2 does not come with any capture or processing software that I am aware of. I use Virtual Dub or AmarecTV for capture and my video editor for processing.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Well the OP may now be on valium since much that has been posted has zilch to answer his question (even if there was no simple answer to his question)

    And the chances are that the topic is another candidate for closure for these reasons. WTF has this forum become ?
    Actually I'm the one who suggested that he should open a new thread with a specific question in a specific subject, but the way it looks you can't ask a question here and not having a fight, this forum needs moderation like a day care.
    Last edited by dellsam34; 16th Jun 2022 at 21:16.
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  14. Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Only major drawback is driver install [GV-USB2] is in Japanese
    https://iotku.pw/gvusb2-guide/ Another thing to note is that the GV-USB2 does not come with any capture or processing software that I am aware of. I use Virtual Dub or AmarecTV for capture and my video editor for processing.
    As long as third party software can detect it - not a problem in my book. Pinnacle's software, for example, blocks Macrovision-protected content. I guess I should be grateful that they did not block it on hardware or driver level. Alwyn, ArcanaXIX, have you tried digitizing Macrovision-protected tapes using GV-USB2?
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  15. I haven't. If Alwyn hasn't either I can test it out in the not too distant future and report back.
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    Originally Posted by ConsumerDV
    have you tried digitizing Macrovision-protected tapes using GV-USB2?
    I don't know. I don't have many commercial tapes. I've tried Memphis Belle, and that comes through the GV-USB2 with no ill-effects, but then I can't tell if macrovision has been applied applied to the tape.
    Last edited by Alwyn; 16th Jun 2022 at 23:32. Reason: Grammar.
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  17. So I'm about to buy...Dazzle, Hauppage, or IO-Data? Which is the easiest to use on Windows 10? Or in a Windows 7 virtual machine?
    Last edited by boolian2; 18th Jun 2022 at 18:41. Reason: forgot
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  18. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by boolian2 View Post
    So I'm about to buy...Dazzle, Hauppage, or IO-Data? Which is the easiest to use on Windows 10? Or in a Windows 7 virtual machine?
    From that list, begrudgingly, the I-O Data model suggested here.

    You cannot capture in a VM, direct OS on hardware required.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 19th Jun 2022 at 23:03. Reason: spelling
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  19. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by boolian2 View Post
    So I'm about to buy...Dazzle, Hauppage, or IO-Data? Which is the easiest to use on Windows 10? Or in a Windows 7 virtual machine?
    From that list, begrudgingly, the IO-Data model suggested here.

    You cannot capture in a VM, direct OS on hardware required.
    So you sell PCI capture cards? Would I also need a TBC? What do your cards offer over a capture device that is $50-$100?

    Do these Pinnacles have a different chipset than the Pinnacles you are selling?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/273819196120
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/125374142956

    Thanks

    update:

    You said the io-data maybe doesn't do ntsc, only ntsc-j? I found the io-data on Ebay for $55

    Also, the Hauppage has really great reviews on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-610-USB-Live-Digitizer-Capture/dp/B0036VO2BI#customerReviews

    Also on Amazon is Vidbox which has good reviews https://www.amazon.com/VIDBOX-VCS2M-Video-Conversion-Suite/dp/B00ND0E7FS/
    Last edited by boolian2; 18th Jun 2022 at 20:30. Reason: added
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  20. Member DB83's Avatar
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    You ask for advice and advice is given to you. In good faith. Yet having that advice you throw more flames on to the water.

    lordsmurf questioned the re-use by Hauppauge of device names. Now by means of illustration, check out the following Amazon UK link


    https://www.amazon.co.uk/USB-Live2-Capture-display-record-Laptop/dp/B003Q2ZA36/ref=sr_...74&sr=8-3&th=1


    This is precisely the model I acquired in 2013. I continue to use it on Windows 7 (Windows 10 was not even available back then). And do note the difference in packaging between this and the 610.


    Am I recc. it ? I can not do that since unless you have a standalone Windows 7 system. Now maybe other users in this topic have this model working for them in Windows 10 - the reviews have questioned its suitability but Hauppuage regularily update their drivers and one I saw stated "usb-live2 all models" although this link appears to be the latest.


    https://hauppauge.com/pages/support/support_usblive2.html#drivers


    And I always take reviews on Amazon with a pinch of salt. Much of the time they are written by mis-informed people who do not have a clue with what they are doing.


    But if you are buying with a little doubt in your mind use reputable dealers such as Amazon and not Fleabay since you then have an easier route of product return should the purchase not work out for you (I do not think Amazon US actually sells the IO-Data direct since this product is only available in Japan)


    "PCI cards". If you mean the legacy long slots then you are most unlikely to get these working beyond WinXP (my old Hauppauge suffered that fate). But ls can guide you more on this.
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  21. I can vouch for Io-Data GV-USB2 working on win10; I use it for NTSC, but I'm curious about lordsmurf's comments on its reliability for the format. Anecdotally I've had no noticeable issues but I'm more or less just starting out with learning the proper tools for A/V digitizing, so may be missing something.

    Between this and the Dazzle at any rate it's given me way less problems. I haven't tried the Hauppauge USB Live 2 so can't comment there.

    (edit: as I mentioned above, my current card is the Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1250. I don't use the WinTV program at all I use VirtualDub/AmarecTV to record. I HAVE had some problems with VirtualDub on Win10 but that is a program not card specific issue. Downside of this card is I have had some audio issues, in fact I can't really get the audio to work at all, but I have other means to capture audio. It is an internal PCIe card instead of an external USB card. I like it because I like it its colors and contrast better than GV-USB2 with proper settings; since it is internal PCIe this may be a bit apples to oranges. Plus I got it used and in good condition -- who knows what condition other used cards may be.)
    Last edited by ArcanaXIX; 19th Jun 2022 at 04:21. Reason: wanted to state current in use card as Win10 user
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    I've bitten the bullet and bought a Hauppauge USB Live-2, direct from Hauppauge, to see what it's like. I should get it in a couple of days (postage almost cost more than the stick!) and I'll report back.
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    Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    I've bitten the bullet and bought a Hauppauge USB Live-2, direct from Hauppauge, to see what it's like. I should get it in a couple of days (postage almost cost more than the stick!) and I'll report back.
    Just remember that your experiences will be contained to PAL. And to whatever cards this exact store has at this exact time. Not before, not after.

    From what I can tell, Hauppauge doesn't have a "direct". When you buy something from Hauppauge (actually hdpvr2gaming.com), the return address is Godaddy from AZ. I've never quite figured out their vendors, nor this Shopify-like Godaddy thing. It makes no sense. So whatever is currently stocked at "their own" (is it really?) warehouse may not be the actual newest stocking of this item. I've bought some stuff there, and it arrived covered in dust, with that "old warehouse" smell. So don't make the mistake of thinking the items you're getting from hdpvr2gaming.com is the newest version of an item. Their own store likely has far less traffic than Newegg or Amazon, so odds are they have stale stock. Now the issue is where did new stock go? Well, you have to guess. Newegg, Amazon, others? Then again, perhaps everything is actually NOS from years ago?

    All we know for sure is
    - Hauppauge recycles model names and numbers, for different cards
    - even when cards are "the same" externally, the chips inside are often different, and WILL be different for long-lived models like the 610/Live2

    I mention this stuff over and over again, but some folks just refuse to believe it.

    If you want to test, awesome, go for it!
    If you're just looking for a quality reliable card, understand Hauppauge is a gamble. And when you're a video newbie, you may not see the issues until it's too late, after you've converted all your tapes with problems. (AGC, etc)

    Originally Posted by boolian2 View Post
    So you sell PCI capture cards?
    I have PCI only when ATI AIW (and only certain PCI, not all). Everything else is USB, including certain Pinnacles.

    Capturing is best done on an offline WinXP/Win7 system, not your daily system using some other OS (Win10/11, Mac, Linux). Capturing is about having the right tools, not random tools. Win10 is not a video friendly OS, regarding capture, and may require workarounds to get cards working, though some cards entirely reject Win10.

    Originally Posted by boolian2 View Post
    Do these Pinnacles have a different chipset than the Pinnacles you are selling?
    Those eBay links you posted are to old junk Pinnacle cards. Pinnacle is a brand, and they make lots of crap. Few are worthy cards. So don't start buying random Pinnacle cards off eBay, that probably won't end well for you. eBay in general is a pretty crappy place to buy good capture cards (or VCRs, or TBCs). eBay is where you get remotes, parts, etc. Not good working items ready to use, regardless of whatever BS the seller claims.

    Also, the Hauppage has really great reviews on Amazon
    Also on Amazon is Vidbox which has good reviews
    Amazon has a shill review problem, even worse than low-knowledge morons leaving reviews. It has been written about extensively in recent years, and it really is a "buyer beware" situation. Never use Amazon reviews to gauge the quality of a product, but instead to see if Amazon has product problems (example: shipping expired food). Almost everything on Amazon has lots of 5-star reviews, even for outright dangerous garbage that catches fire (seriously!!!).

    I remember buying a set of dishes some years ago, and all the pattern came off in the dishwasher, plastic peels left on the plate, paint in the dishwasher filter. Dangerous! Had I used these before washing (dumb!), I'd be eating paint! These were "dishwasher/microwave/etc" safe plates. All 5-star reviews. Other complaints rolled in, but it's still mostly 4/5-star reviews to this day.

    Amazon reviews are largely BS, which is why Amazon returns are so high. Research into reviews, especially the electronics category, shows that as much as 65% (two-thirds!!!!) of the reviews are shill/fake.

    Don't be a sucker.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 19th Jun 2022 at 19:06. Reason: typos
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    even when cards are "the same" externally, the chips inside are often different, and WILL be different for long-lived models like the 610/Live
    No. Video and USB bridge chip is always Conexant CX23102. Never changed since > 10 years. If you have some evidence, post here.

    I mention this stuff over and over again, but some folks just refuse to believe it.
    Because is false. It is true for Hauppauge products in general, but not for that specific USB-Live 2 model.
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  25. Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    I've bitten the bullet and bought a Hauppauge USB Live-2, direct from Hauppauge, to see what it's like. I should get it in a couple of days (postage almost cost more than the stick!) and I'll report back.
    That version of it hasn't caused any issues for me so far
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    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    even when cards are "the same" externally, the chips inside are often different, and WILL be different for long-lived models like the 610/Live
    No. Video and USB bridge chip is always Conexant CX23102. Never changed since > 10 years. If you have some evidence, post here.

    I mention this stuff over and over again, but some folks just refuse to believe it.
    Because is false. It is true for Hauppauge products in general, but not for that specific USB-Live 2 model.
    I just wonder why Hauppauge released the "610" if the earlier version (see my link and the 610 appears to be from 2013 but not available from Amazon UK only US) was fine. A change of actual manufacturer perhaps ?
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  27. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    AFAIK was/is the name of the same card for US. Just a different box.

    edit: a US user can post maybe the graph of the video path. It should be the same as this one:

    Image
    [Attachment 65481 - Click to enlarge]
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  28. Thank you everyone I just bought Io-data from Japanese importer third party seller on US Amazon and Panasonic DMR-ES15 from Ebay. Also picked up Dazzle DVC-107 from Ebay for 15 bucks. Looking forward to trying them out when they arrive. Will be using them with my JVC S-VHS HR-S3800U VCR (with S-video) and AmarecTV/OBS on Windows 11 computer.
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    Vastly different price too.
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    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    even when cards are "the same" externally, the chips inside are often different, and WILL be different for long-lived models like the 610/Live
    No. Video and USB bridge chip is always Conexant CX23102. Never changed since > 10 years. If you have some evidence, post here.
    I mention this stuff over and over again, but some folks just refuse to believe it.
    Because is false. It is true for Hauppauge products in general, but not for that specific USB-Live 2 model.
    Your information simply is not correct. Quite a few Hauppauge cards have been documented online, sometimes with up to 5 wildly different variations.

    You're also missing firmware, chip revisions, and other hardware on the card. There is a complex relationship between chips, and a single non-main component change can cause issues. A perfect example of this is the AVT-8710, green vs. black situation (and many other Cypress models). The FPGA was "the same", but also not at all.

    Some are definitely excellent cards. But not all. You cannot shop Hauppauge from model name/number alone.

    Aside from all this, Conexant isn't a high-end chipset. Some can be decent, many more can be crap. The issues is three-fold, not just chip model, but chip firmware/revision, as well as usage by the OEM. It's always been this way, since the BT pre-CX days.

    Again, I'm glad you found a card that works well for you , and want to tell others about it. But I urge you to proceed with caution, as I know people have gotten burned by Hauppauge (and Conexant) many times over the years. It's why I often dole out advice with caveats, not just "yeah, get this one, greatest ever!" (not even for ATI, JVC, Panasonics, or DataVideo gear!)

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Vastly different price too.
    FYI, this is/was a tell sign of production changes.

    Originally Posted by boolian2 View Post
    Thank you everyone I just bought Io-data from Japanese importer third party seller on US Amazon and Panasonic DMR-ES15 from Ebay. Also picked up Dazzle DVC-107 from Ebay for 15 bucks. Looking forward to trying them out when they arrive. Will be using them with my JVC S-VHS HR-S3800U VCR (with S-video) and AmarecTV/OBS on Windows 11 computer.
    That Dazzle is a waste of time, POS.
    But the ES15, JVC 3800, and the Japanese card will hopefully give some decent results. Not the best, issues will happen, but still decent, if low budget.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 19th Jun 2022 at 23:04. Reason: typos
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