Hello, I've been using a S-VHS JVC player to output these results:
Unprocessed Original audio = named "1audio.wav" at the bottom of the post
Filtered audio (post-capture) = named "1filteredaudio.wav" at the bottom of the post
I also included the video-file, split into 3 parts: 1.avsnittPart1.avi etc. with the original audio, and 1.avsnittPart1Filtered.mkv etc. with filtered audio (post-capture)
The original stats of the current video file attached in here is the one at the right side:
[Attachment 65355 - Click to enlarge]
Btw (perhaps I should start another thread for this), but is it okay to have a 5:4 display aspect ratio instead of the conventional 4:3 for PAL vhs tapes?
Is there something I could have done to help clean up the background noise during the capture process of the VHS-tape in the first place (i.e. before applying noise reduction filters)? Like:
Cleaning the S-VHS recorder's lense with a Q-tip dipped in alcohol?
Making further VCR software or PC software tweaks
Or get another S-VHS-recorder altogether?
I don't think it's worth the risk to do anything with the tape itself. Perhaps it was just this tape that was a bit more worn out than my other tapes?
Adding a clip for reference = called "Reference clip from another tape avsnitt2.avi" at the bottom of the post, is from another tape was captured during the same week as the video above (so I'm not looking to make any approvements to this clip, but only to the one at the top of the message).
Here, the background noise is noticable as well, so it maybe it has something to do with the condition of the VCR itself. Do you think the level of background noise is reasonable?
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Last edited by Desve; 14th Jun 2022 at 09:12. Reason: added files to the site and removed youtube links
Coming out of your S-VHS deck is standard analog PAL video, which, barring the rare exception of specialty tapes with 16:9 WSS, will ALWAYS be 720x576 @ 25i at 4:3 DAR, WHEN DIGITIZED PROPERLY . Sometimes the full 720 width is included in the AR, sometimes only 702 or 704, with pillarbox padding added (though that doesn't really change much overall).
Whatever setup you have going on, either the equipment is faulty, your settings are wrong, or you have done some post-processing that wasn't fully aware of the (hopefully) existing non-square pixel/sample aspect ratio, and then changed it to show as square pixel. Or a combination of these. My guess is the post-processing, but evidently lots of these el cheapo ez-crap devices don't output with correct AR, so who knows. We would need much further details.
Regardless, this would be showing an image which may or may not be bothersome in its mishapen-ness. That's for only you to decide (I personally would never allow that).
There are a number of questions about your capture signal chain that might be affecting this, or it could be that is what your output truly looks like directly from the deck to an analog monitor - too early to tell. However, what I see appears to have a number of issues, with background/deck playback noise being one of the least of them. Btw, most better SVHS decks have some form of dropout compensation noise reduction built-in. Perhaps yours is turned off?
As jagabo mentioned, critical analysis cannot be done through low quality YouTube intermediates, nor can much be done without understanding the full provenance/process, in detail.
The black level looks to be a little too high and the white level way too low. But that could just be those shots. We need to see a wider variety of shots to say for sure (look for the darkest darks and brightest brights). I'm guessing the levels should be more like:
[Attachment 65378 - Click to enlarge]
Last edited by jagabo; 13th Jun 2022 at 22:48.
If the audio is coming from the normal mono linear track the level of noise is expected to be about right, However the audio level cannot be judged from youtube, you will have to upload a sample from the raw capture file or note the dB meter after the ADC during capturing if the capture software provides it, anything from -15dB to 0db is acceptable, ideally -10dB to -5dB.
Oh, i didn't even check the audio..
I just assumed because it's in the audio sub forum, It doesn't hurt to give more advice than what it's needed, One thing I couldn't understand is "Cleaning the S-VHS recorder's lense with a Q-tip dipped in alcohol?"
Originally Posted by Scott
Originally Posted by Desve
You can see the difference by opening one of your AVIs in Virtual Dub and right-clicking on the video then choosing 4:3. You'll see the image widen a tad to be more natural.
DAR (Display Aspect Ratio) = 4:3 -> the 720x576 frame will be properly displayed by the player (i.e. VLC) at heigth * DAR x heigth = 576 * 4/3 x 576 = 768x576
SAR (Storage Aspect Ratio) = ratio between the width and the height of the frame = 720/576 = 5/4
PAR (Pixel Aspect Ratio) = DAR / SAR = 4/3 / 5/4 = 4/3 * 4/5 = 16/15
Sometimes the names are mixed between them, i.e ffmpeg calls SAR what generally is defined as PAR and MediaInfo calls DAR what generally is defined as SAR
Yes, SAR as in scripts just means Sample Aspect Ratio, the sample is the unit of sampling which is referred to as pixel in the digital domain. When you are sampling an analog signal you can't call it pixel yet so the name sample stuck I guess, But yes names are mixed up and it is confusing sometimes for a lot of people.
Updated the files in the OP. I extracted the untouched audio into one single file and converted the untouched video file to .mp4.
Without applying too much filter to the audio, what would be some of the most effective filters to use? As you can hear the background noise is less prominent in the filtered wav files, but I assume there's room for improvement
I used a JVC S-VHS HR-S8500EH https://www.manualslib.com/products/Jvc-Hr-S8500eh-256317.html, Hauppage 610 Usb-Live 2, and VDub
huffyuv PAL captures in Vdub output files that has a 5:4 AR? I added a video to the OP, the aspect ratio of which I have changed to 4:3 (it has only been lossy converted once from the lossless original video)
Even if the audio is the main focus, getting tips about how to improve the video won't hurt either, even though that's a little bit of a lower priority at the moment. I also tried another workflow once, where I burned captured VHS tape signals from a VCR onto a DVD with a DVD-recorder, so I assume the video has been stabilized for that version a little bit. But it also had playback compatibility problem, if I just skipped a little bit ahead in the video or sped/slowed it down, then the audio got out of synch, until I played it from scratch again, at least that's how the files I copied/ripped to the computer acted like. The original burned DVD-disc itself played well though.
Perhaps that would decrease the levels of background noise if I were to make an attempt to digitize the tape again? Hopefully the tape's hasn't degraded in quality too much since last session
I followed a guide on Digitalfaq and/or the one here on Videohelp (the popular one(s) that received good feedback in the comments etc) sort of thoroughly, it was a couple of years ago I digitized the tapes so I don't have it super-fresh in memory. The sample is from VDub, using PAL B or G (for region SE). I don't recall if there was any changable field that wasn't greyed-out, in Vdub once hauppage usb-live 610 had been recognized as a device and the correct PAL region had been (but not entirely sure about this) that allowed you to specify DAR and set it to 4:3 when using huffyuv codec for PAL G/B. Maybe there was, if so I have to go back and set it all up again. When Vdub detected the usb device and the right region had been selected most of it, for that part, seemed to be automatic - for example it automatically inserted 720x576. I might have to redo it all again though. Just thought I'd see how the major concensus was about the capture, the audio qulity in particular.
Mediainfo probably just divides 720 by 576. It should be you who should know whether it is 4:3 or 14:9 or 16:9 and adjust PAR accordingly when creating a deliverable. Use a container that has robust metadata support like MKV or MP4.
Going to try to reconstruct what I wrote earlier that got lost...
@Alwyn, I'm sorry to hear you're getting that kind of info from your systems. I trust that you know well enough what you're doing, and can compensate for equipment or apps that don't provide proper information, so am sure all is good in the end. But rest assured, there are better quality devices that fully follow the 601 spec and provide non-square output with proper flagging, to give you a true 4:3 DAR designation upon saving and playback. I've used a number of devices, but mostly recently they have been Ospreys. Not that I do much analog capture any more, but once upon a time, that was what I did commercially day-in-day-out.
ConsumerDV is probably right if MediaInfo is considering that number a Storage AR (which doesn't exist). For a long time now, I've wanted MI to document where & how they derive their info from (container, vid stream, direct from headers, calculated...), and had even put in a couple of requests for the same, but never got a budge on that so gave up. MI is often a useful tool, but one has to know that it has its weaknesses. This is one of them.
Scott, I won't be forking out hundreds for an Opsrey. I'll cope with my 5:4. I just find it odd that I've never had a 4:3-designated capture file and you've never had a 5:4 capture.
Originally Posted by ConsumerDV
If in doubt, check with a ruler.
I'm sure I read that analogue capture files don't have AR info in them
Mediainfo shows the SAR, or better the width/heigth ratio as Scott prefers to call it.
And not all capture programs save as AVI. Other containers can include aspect ratio flags -- MOV for example.
Yes, the capture software is responsible for setting any AR information at the container level. Since AVI usually doesn't flag display or sampling aspect ratios programs like MediaInfo just use the frame dimensions. 720:576 = 5:4, 720x480 = 3:2. I seem to recall long ago that some program(s) would just assume a 4:3 display aspect ratio when it encountered the standard ITU frame sizes in AVI.
Thank you Jagabo.
Note that the pictures blow shows the the settings I had for Amarec. The first Mediainfo picture I posted in the OP shows stats for the Amarec video to the left (i.e. only the reference clip intended to compare audio, which I was not supposed to analyze as closely) while the Vdub video stats was to the right (all of the rest of the clips and audio that I wanted to analyze). But I believe I made certain (most likely), unless the AR field was greyed-out, that Vdub was also set to 4:3
[Attachment 65426 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 65427 - Click to enlarge]
Desve, don't get wound up about the ratio. You've set AmarecTV and VDub correctly. They are not setting the correct flag in the file info, as per Jagabo's comments. Mediainfo is basically correct; your AVI capture files come out as 5:4 (as they are for most of us). Don't worry about it, just encode your "Save" or export file as 4:3.
I think I used this:
Regarding the audio: It sounds better than the typical VHS linear audio track. The noise level is probably on the tape, from the original source. It's stereo in the sense that there is a left and right audio track. But they are nearly identical. So effectively mono.
Last edited by jagabo; 15th Jun 2022 at 10:47.
Also I thought the audio tracks looked very similar so yea, not the best, not the worst quality
So I finally got the big old heavy tv out of the closet and checked the tape. First, I checked with a commercial "newer" vhs-tape. While it was running, I was able to switch between all the supported audio modes with the remote, as was expected for a commercial vhs. They were either:
1. (speaker icon pointing to the left) Norm (speaker icon pointing to the right)
2. (speaker icon pointing to the left) (speaker icon pointing to the right)
3. (speaker icon pointing to the left)
4. (speaker icon pointing to the right)
When I inserted the tape that I'm currently analysing from which I've also included samples in this thread (1.avsnitt etc.), I discovered that only "Norm" (#5 above) was the possible mode after having tried to toggle between the audio modes in vain. So, except cleaning VHS-tape (risky) or the VHS deck, I guess I can't get any better audio quality out of it than what's present in the audio clips in this thread. I assume it's not a setting either , (I've used the audio button on the remote, and looked into the vcr's menu for other options). That's a shame, but, the MGM tape itself is recorded in -94, so even if stereo/hifi sound was still possible back then for VHS decks/tapes, the units that supported that function were perhaps not so common or a bit more pricy during the time (taking a wild guess here, maybe someone knows more about this). At least it seems like none of those kind of units were used back then when the programme was recorded.
A few random questions about settings:
I always activate the in-line TBC function switch on the vhs-deck, but there's another one beneath that called Rec Link. So far I've left it untouched
Also, in the VCR's menu settings I chose to de-activate 'time scan audio'
In the menu for the VCR there's an option called: Rec Level CTL (HiFi-rec level control) I've just set to "preset" instead of manual (the marker is in the middle between a min and max scale)
Actually I've turned off almost every setting: Auto Timer, O.S.D, B.E.S.T, Auto SP-LP timer, Digital 3R (I read somewhere that my VHS deck has a primitive version of this function so I deactivated it), Edit, Time scan audio
Only these were different: Colour system: PAL/NTSC, AV2 Select: video, S-VHS: Auto
Do these settings seem ok? I'm a little unsure of O.S.D and B.E.S.T but I don't know how well they perform in JVC S-VHS HR-S8500EH
The stationary heads are the linear audio heads, You stated that with the tape in question there is no option for left or right which clearly and without a doubt indicates that the tape is indeed non HiFi Stereo, so the audio is coming from the stationary heads right before the pinch roller.
As to settings:
1- Time Scan - OFF but this feature has no effect on capturing.
2- Rec Level is only for recording, not capturing/playback
3- B.E.S.T (Biconditional Equalised Signal Tracking) should be ON all the time, It works for both recording and playback.
4- Digital 3R is tape based, test it for each tape and decide.
5- Picture mode should be set to EDIT.
6- OSD should always be off during capturing.
7- Auto SP-LP timer OFF but this is a recording feature.
I also noticed that your model has "SPATIALIZER" feature for audio, make sure it's OFF.
Last edited by dellsam34; 19th Jun 2022 at 13:22.
I read that Spatializer simulates stereo sound for mono sources spacious sound for stereo sources. Should this setting still be off even for HiFi tapes? And should the rest of the settings remain as-is when capturing signals from HiFi tapes?