HDMI USB Capture with 576i (uncompressed) support

[slikvik]

I have a Panny DMR-EZ49V VHS VCR which has HDMI out (at 576i). I want to capture this interlaced and uncompressed but cant seem to find a cheapish HDMI to USB capture device that supports it.

Has anyone found one? Anything under £100 would be okay.

The cheap £15 devices on Amazon are actually okay and let you capture uncompressed but they support 576p not 576i which means I have to set the VCR to 576p and use its deinterlacer.

Some like the Elgato Game Capture HD which I can get on eBay for £30, say the support 576i but encode to MP4 in the device!

[Skiller]

they support 576p not 576i which means I have to set the VCR to 576p and use its deinterlacer.

The Pannys just fill in the missing lines, so the deinterlacing can be undone losslessly.

There is currently a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (USB 3.0) on eBay UK. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295027630096
No idea how much it will cost when the auction ends, but just wanted to point it out.

[slikvik]

Dammit, really?1 I might just reorder one of the cheap ones again because apart from the 576p thing I was actually pretty impressed.
So the Panny is just bob deinterlacing? I don't suppose you have a link to how to undo it?

[Skiller]

Yes, they just bob-deinterlace, and in 576p HDMI mode there is no rescaling hence the filled in lines by the Panny's deinterlacing can be deleted and you are left with the raw 576i. The deinterlacing is not very impressive either, very basic, which is good in this case.

However, it is possible that have to figure out which of the lines are the interpolated ones and which are the original ones for each capture. A 576p capture may start at a former top or bottom field. By looking at the isolated fields it should be rather obvious which ones are synthetic and which ones are "natural". There are always only two possibilities (top or the bottom lines) and one of them is the right one.


To undo it I would recommend AviSynth, or VirtualDub.
The process is the same as if you were converting a 50p source to 25i for DVD for example.
You take every other line of the first frame and throw out all the other lines of this first frame. On the next frame you also take every other line but the opposite ones (top/bottom field alternation). Those two fields are then combined into an interlaced frame and you are back at 25i losslessly.

[slikvik]

Hey Skiller. Thanks very much for replying. Since your original reply I have in fact been trying this with AviSynth

However I'm seeing some strange behaviour which I've literally just posted about here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/406032-SeparateFields%28%29-SelectEvery%284-0-3%29...6i-not-working

I'd value your thoughts on this. I did try scripts for TFF and BFF but still seeing the same issues.

[Eric-jan]

There are converters that have both HDMI input and output, so using that as passthrough, you can strip the DHCP, and capture with a HDMI > dongle
don't try to capture in progressive this way, most of the time this has side effects.
This HDMI Video Capture dongle goes under various brand names the one from EarKings use USB3, others use USB2.

[slikvik]

There are converters that have both HDMI input and output, so using that as passthrough, you can strip the DHCP, and capture with a HDMI > dongle
don't try to capture in progressive this way, most of the time this has side effects.
This HDMI Video Capture dongle goes under various brand names the one from EarKings use USB3, others use USB2.

Hi Eric, unfortunately it's something very similar that I used. (I tried two!)

The first issue was that 480i/576i was greyed out in the HDMI settings of my Panny when connected to this sort of device, presumably because the handshake didn't allow interlaced.

I then had to set the Panasonic and encode to 576p, which caused all the problems you can see in the thread linked above. Turns out that although it will accept multiple resolutions and framerates, anything other than a 30fps source ends up with bad frame cadence. It looked reasonable in motion and was only when stepping through frame by frame that we could see it was AABBCCDDEE (for 60) and ABBBCDDDEDDD (for 50).

[Eric-jan]

Other problem with these "sticks" is that the aspect ratio isn't picked up correctly, i know for sure the input gets the correct aspect ratio.
To hook up HDMI video camera's these sticks are usable, but also not perfect.
capturing analog video is best be done without pc, or have a good HDMI capture card (no USB) installed in your windows(?) pc, have a converter with HDMI in and out to strip the HDCP of your EZ49V you can use your EZ49V also as passthrough for any camcorder, the EZ49V gives a stable video signal ?
If my ES35V gives up the ghost, i still have a DMR-EH63 dvr with HDMI output, recording/capturing outside a pc/laptop is a better option, due to "upgrades" of operating systems, that changes also the interface each time with that

Did some searching…. best is to switch off VIERA LINK and set video format on automatic, but chance is still... it will output a widescreen with the 4:3 & sidebars, it will do this for sure in the 1080 setting.
My guess is, it sees the dongle as a 1080i device, most of the time you can't control the dongle's setting, with Mac this is even more of a problem…. these dongle's don't need a driver though…


[Attachment 65362 - Click to enlarge]

^^Click on image to enlarge^^

[Pinto007]

AVerMedia ExtremeCap UVC supports uncompressed 576i.

[slikvik]

AVerMedia ExtremeCap UVC supports uncompressed 576i.

Brilliant! That's exactly the one I've been looking at!

I've been doing some digging around these cheap HDMI devices. They all use the same chip and it seems to have also sorts of issues with either resolution/framerate limitations or formats - uses MJPEG. One example from another forum:

"you are using a HDMI capture device based on the Macrosilicon MS2109 chip. Technically, this chip can only output 1080p30. It seems that some vendors are offering devices with a tweaked firmware that offers 1080p60 MJPEG output. But in that configuration, every second frame is empty (and thus discarded), that's what your log output is telling you. So effectively you only get 1080p30 although the device is configured to 60Hz. It's fake 60Hz."

[Eric-jan]

No problems from HDCP sofar ? most consumer devices with a tuner, will not allow comunication with a capture device, unless you strip the HDCP, or it fails to handshake for setting a resolution.

[dellsam34]

I have a Panny DMR-EZ49V VHS VCR which has HDMI out (at 576i). I want to capture this interlaced and uncompressed but cant seem to find a cheapish HDMI to USB capture device that supports it.

Just a thought, Have you tried the conventional way of capturing Y-C and audio out of the SCART connector using a USB capture device? I know it's a rabbit hole but the hole you are in now seems to be deeper, HDMI is not the recommended method of capturing analog video for these same reasons.

[Pinto007]

I recommend HDMI, because whites are less overblown than via analog outputs.

[dellsam34]

That's one of the reasons why capturing analog video via a regular capture device is better, The levels are more accurate, HDMI has wrong levels because it's not rec.601 compliant, Therefore image is darker, colors are pumped.

[Pinto007]

I don't know, where do You get these fairytales from, but I can assure you, that You are not right. My duo DMR-EX78 + Avermedia ExtremeCap UVC produce fully compliant SD video - 576i REC.601.

[slikvik]

I don't know, where do You get these fairytales from, but I can assure you, that You are not right. My duo DMR-EX78 + Avermedia ExtremeCap UVC produce fully compliant SD video - 576i REC.601.

I was just about to ask if the ExtremeCap outputs YUY2. About to purchase.

No problems from HDCP sofar ? most consumer devices with a tuner, will not allow comunication with a capture device, unless you strip the HDCP, or it fails to handshake for setting a resolution.

I believe this is because they're UVC spec so aren't technically Capture devices?

[dellsam34]

I don't know, where do You get these fairytales from,

I get them from my fairy tales book.

[Skiller]

I also recommend the HDMI route. It may be tricky to get going first but the results are good with a Panasonic DVD/HDD or VHS/DVD machine with HDMI out and with uncompressed HDMI capture hardware. And there is nothing such as non-compliant rec.601 levels with this setup. I cannot see where you got such claim from, dellsam34. First time I hear about that. Have been capturing with this method since 2014. These Panasonics spit out nothing but standard 8 Bit YUY2 via HDMI (resolution as per user's choice). They don't do any other fancy modes that HDMI may support.

[Pinto007]

One note about my video sample: if you completely desaturate colours, you will see gray rectangle under "REC-601 SDTV" - it means that video is compliant with REC 601.

[Skiller]

Yes, the levels of all channels (Y, Cb and Cr) are Rec.601 compliant, just like with traditional capture hardware.

When it comes to HDMI not being Rec.601 compliant, the only thing I can think of – but this does not affect capture – is that as per HDMI spec there exist no PAR or SAR, nor does blanking or active line length, only DAR. It means that as far as HDMI is concerned, 720x576 and 720x480 = 4:3 which is not Rec.601 compliant.
But since we capture the native standard definition frame size, this does not come into effect (it would if one were to set the output res to 720p or 1080i, but who would do that).

[dellsam34]

I also recommend the HDMI route. It may be tricky to get going first but the results are good with a Panasonic DVD/HDD or VHS/DVD machine with HDMI out and with uncompressed HDMI capture hardware. And there is nothing such as non-compliant rec.601 levels with this setup. I cannot see where you got such claim from, dellsam34. First time I hear about that. Have been capturing with this method since 2014. These Panasonics spit out nothing but standard 8 Bit YUY2 via HDMI (resolution as per user's choice). They don't do any other fancy modes that HDMI may support.

I wasn't talking about DVD players, I was talking about HDMI capture devices, Which in most cases they don't adhere to SD standards especially the Chinese ones and there is a whole lot of them flooding online markets, If you have read post #1 you will notice that the OP has already faced that challenge, and that's what I quoted in my response. I don't post to challenge other members pretending to know everything, Or argue to prove a useless point, I offer alternative solutions that might work based on personal experience.

You don't have to scroll up, I will copy/past it for you:

The cheap £15 devices on Amazon are actually okay and let you capture uncompressed but they support 576p not 576i which means I have to set the VCR to 576p and use its deinterlacer.

Some like the Elgato Game Capture HD which I can get on eBay for £30, say the support 576i but encode to MP4 in the device!

[Skiller]

Fair enough.

Things would be so much easier for starters if there weren't so many braindead chips on the market that only output 30 fps no matter what, and scale and deinterlace no matter what, and mess with the levels.

So yes, I aknowledge your point about more traditional capture hardware not running into these kinds of problems.

[slikvik]

Fair enough.

Things would be so much easier for starters if there weren't so many braindead chips on the market that only output 30 fps no matter what, and scale and deinterlace no matter what, and mess with the levels.

So yes, I aknowledge your point about more traditional capture hardware not running into these kinds of problems.

I completely agree and I think the value of forums like this is identifying the crap ones and documenting the good ones...

Anything with a Macrosilicon MS2109 chip (most no-brand devices under £40) should be avoided at all costs.
I will feedback on the Avermedia Extremecap when it arrives, but Pinto007 seems to to have had perfectly good and compliant results.

That's all that matters surely? Especially given analogue capture devices will become rarer and/or more expensive?

[lordsmurf]

PM'd a link to this thread...

I wasn't talking about DVD players, I was talking about HDMI capture devices, Which in most cases they don't adhere to SD standards especially the Chinese ones and there is a whole lot of them flooding online markets, If you have read post #1 you will notice that the OP has already faced that challenge, and that's what I quoted in my response.

This was how I read it as well.

So, in that context...

I recommend HDMI, because whites are less overblown than via analog outputs.

This is horrible wrong advice. Why? Because almost all HDMI "cards" (converters, dongles, whatever) rape the signal values.

I also recommend the HDMI route.
And there is nothing such as non-compliant rec.601 levels with this setup. I cannot see where you got such claim from, dellsam34. First time I hear about that. Have been capturing with this method since 2014. These Panasonics spit out nothing but standard 8 Bit YUY2 via HDMI (resolution as per user's choice). They don't do any other fancy modes that HDMI may support.

Whether or not you're aware of it, he is 100% correct here. Rec.601 matters, and wrong rec can be introduced by a crap HDMI card.

PAL vs. NTSC is also a concern.
- With PAL, wrong values can be a wee harder to detect by the "naked eye", but it's very obvious when you start to color correct it.
- With NTSC, it's obvious immediately, unless you're just a complete video novice that doesn't understand what good video should look like. Even then, most newbies immediately see the awful darkness, washout, oversaturation, and other values issues. To make matters worse, all NTSC DVD recorders seem to output forced deinterlaced mess, while only some PAL do, likely due to licensing requirements in North America.

Things would be so much easier for starters if there weren't so many braindead chips on the market that only output 30 fps no matter what, and scale and deinterlace no matter what, and mess with the levels.
So yes, I aknowledge your point about more traditional capture hardware not running into these kinds of problems.

Even SD cards have gotten the "cheap China treatment", ie Easycaps, ClearClicks, etc. All crap.

[Alwyn]

The Startech USB3HDCAP happily captures 576i through HDMI from my Sony HXD 890. The driver says it is capturing BT601. I do need a HDMI splitter to defeat the HDCP. Results are as good as my Comp/SVideo USB sticks.


[Attachment 65408 - Click to enlarge]

PM'd a link to this thread...

After some moral support, Dellsam?

[slikvik]

Alwyn, is that the properties screen of the Startech driver? Pretty detailed for Startech.

As I said before, surely a thread of HDMI capture devices and their true capabilities would be useful? They aren't going away any time soon.

How would you accurately check for 601 compliance? Pinto007 seems convinced from his test capture that his is.

lordsmurf, your last comment that even SD cards have recently suffered crap products shows that this is more a case of finding quality products, analogue or digital, that do the job well enough. Is it really the case that you either have to find discontinued devices or high end pro equipment to do interlaced, rec 601, uncompressed captures? This thread would suggest that's still up for discussion.

[dellsam34]

After some moral support, Dellsam?

I think you need it more than me, I don't write BS and regret it later, My social life is at home not here. I come here to try to help the ones who need it, grow up and stop writing useless posts, this is not Tiktok, it's a technical forum.

[lordsmurf]

After some moral support, Dellsam?

Or it had nothing to do with him.

lordsmurf, your last comment that even SD cards have recently suffered crap products shows that this is more a case of finding quality products, analogue or digital, that do the job well enough. Is it really the case that you either have to find discontinued devices or high end pro equipment to do interlaced, rec 601, uncompressed captures? This thread would suggest that's still up for discussion.

I don't see the problem with "discontinued devices", especially when these have been proven superior, over and over again, for years. The new cheap whizbang devices are the problem, 99% of it cheaply made in China. Many of those super-crappy capture cards literally cost less than $1 to make, and often sold shipped for under $5.

We're now living in a post-SD, post-analog era. All the "for sale new" cards are either
(1) HD and digital only,
(2) HD and digital, that "also does" (and poorly) SD/analog,

... or the cheap garbage SD card, USB, usually easy to spot (Easycap rebadges, etc).

Or get a reliable older card.
There a reason I make these cards available for others -- to help them get quality gear for capturing.

[ConsumerDV]

This was how I read it as well.

But can you count? Have you figured out what was wrong with them numbers? Or do you reject math, school and units of measurement like dellsam34?

almost all HDMI "cards" (converters, dongles, whatever) rape the signal values.

Rape, not butcher? This is a relief.

[Alwyn]

I might grow up and make another useless BS post that I'll probably regret later. Feel free to put this on Tiktok, Delssam. BTW, what is Tiktok?

lordsmurf, your last comment that even SD cards have recently suffered crap products shows that this is more a case of finding quality products, analogue or digital, that do the job well enough. Is it really the case that you either have to find discontinued devices or high end pro equipment to do interlaced, rec 601, uncompressed captures? This thread would suggest that's still up for discussion.

No. There are plenty of good, in-production, devices that will capture VHS: examples (but by no means the only, I'm sure) are IOData GV-USB2, Startech USB3HDCAP, Hauppauge USB Live2 (I don't have nay experience with the last one but it is held in good reagard by others). These work flawlessly with Windows 10.

And there are good options for HDMI capture, if that is your want. As I alluded-to above, the USB3HDCAP produces great SD video from an HDMI source.

is that the properties screen of the Startech driver? Pretty detailed for Startech.

Yes it is.

[QUOTE-slikvik]How would you accurately check for 601 compliance?[/QUOTE]
Maybe Dellsam could chime in. He appears to know all about it given he stated HDMI doesn't do compliant 601.