Playing back PCM (44,100 kbps) audio tracks on blu-ray player = out of sync

[digitalfreaknyc]

I have synced up some laserdisc audio tracks to their HD video files. They play back perfectly on my laptop and are completely in sync. However, when I try to play them back on my LG 4k player, either via a burned data disc *OR* playing it off of a drive, it is out of sync. The regular native track that came with it originally remains in sync as does the other 5.1 track I added from another disc (which is 48000 as well).

I've also tried playing it back by hooking up the drive to my tv. That plays back perfectly on all 3 tracks with them in sync. The only variation is that first track in 41000. What could the problem be with the blu-ray player? Would I need to re-encode to 48000 for some reason to get it in sync?

EDIT: I tried re-encoding the audio to 48000 and that did nothing. Still out of sync. The file is the exact same length as the audio file that originated with it.

[Cornucopia]

1. 44100Hz is not a valid samplerate for DVD-Video nor for Blu-ray (though it IS for audio-centric formats like DVD-Audio and SACD, as well as being THE standard for AudioCD and digital on Laserdisc). If you want it to play properly on Blu-ray, you MUST resample to 48000. If it in fact played decently on your copy on your system is just lucky coincidence (combined with the likelihood that your player may support some of those other aforementioned formats), but leaving it as 44.1 is not something that should be relied on. It could also be that it may be playing your 44.1 as 48, speeding things up and possibly raising the pitch.

2. In any of these syncing scenarios, just because the 2 tracks start at the same time and have the same length doesn't necessarily mean that they stay synced throughout. They could easily have different edits. Put both tracks in a multiple layered NLE/DAW and temporarily set the panning of 1st steam in mono all to the left, then do the same to the 2nd stream, putting it all to the right. Listen to it throughout. If it is truly in sync it will have stable, centered imaging throughout. If it doesn't, that means it has differences in timebase stability (in one or the other or both) and/or edits. This should be checked prior to re-encoding/re-authoring/recompiling.


Scott

[digitalfreaknyc]

1. 44100Hz is not a valid samplerate for DVD-Video nor for Blu-ray (though it IS for audio-centric formats like DVD-Audio and SACD, as well as being THE standard for AudioCD and digital on Laserdisc). If you want it to play properly on Blu-ray, you MUST resample to 48000. If it in fact played decently on your copy on your system is just lucky coincidence (combined with the likelihood that your player may support some of those other aforementioned formats), but leaving it as 44.1 is not something that should be relied on. It could also be that it may be playing your 44.1 as 48, speeding things up and possibly raising the pitch.

2. In any of these syncing scenarios, just because the 2 tracks start at the same time and have the same length doesn't necessarily mean that they stay synced throughout. They could easily have different edits. Put both tracks in a multiple layered NLE/DAW and temporarily set the panning of 1st steam in mono all to the left, then do the same to the 2nd stream, putting it all to the right. Listen to it throughout. If it is truly in sync it will have stable, centered imaging throughout. If it doesn't, that means it has differences in timebase stability (in one or the other or both) and/or edits. This should be checked prior to re-encoding/re-authoring/recompiling.


Scott

Again, I resampled and it didn't work. It *IS* in sync on several different programs on my laptop (including videoredo and VLC) and it IS in sync when I play it back via my LG TV. It's *NOT* in sync on my blu-ray player, either via data disc or via hard drive.

It is in sync throughout because I synced them up. However, playing back on the blu-ray player STARTS it out of sync, for some reason. My first sync point is about 2 minutes in. That's what I use to check every time I change something. I have not touched the video at all and the original audio as well as the 5.1 track that I manually edited the exact same way that i did the 2.0 track are both in sync. The only problem I'm having is the laserdisc audio track.

I believe that you're right: it's playing the 44100 back as 48000. It's just slightly out of sync, not wildly. But then that begs the question of why it's doing it even if it's re-encoded? And how do I get it to stop doing that?

[october262]

1. 44100Hz is not a valid samplerate for DVD-Video nor for Blu-ray (though it IS for audio-centric formats like DVD-Audio and SACD, as well as being THE standard for AudioCD and digital on Laserdisc). If you want it to play properly on Blu-ray, you MUST resample to 48000. If it in fact played decently on your copy on your system is just lucky coincidence (combined with the likelihood that your player may support some of those other aforementioned formats), but leaving it as 44.1 is not something that should be relied on. It could also be that it may be playing your 44.1 as 48, speeding things up and possibly raising the pitch.

2. In any of these syncing scenarios, just because the 2 tracks start at the same time and have the same length doesn't necessarily mean that they stay synced throughout. They could easily have different edits. Put both tracks in a multiple layered NLE/DAW and temporarily set the panning of 1st steam in mono all to the left, then do the same to the 2nd stream, putting it all to the right. Listen to it throughout. If it is truly in sync it will have stable, centered imaging throughout. If it doesn't, that means it has differences in timebase stability (in one or the other or both) and/or edits. This should be checked prior to re-encoding/re-authoring/recompiling.


Scott

Again, I resampled and it didn't work. It *IS* in sync on several different programs on my laptop (including videoredo and VLC) and it IS in sync when I play it back via my LG TV. It's *NOT* in sync on my blu-ray player, either via data disc or via hard drive.

It is in sync throughout because I synced them up. However, playing back on the blu-ray player STARTS it out of sync, for some reason. My first sync point is about 2 minutes in. That's what I use to check every time I change something. I have not touched the video at all and the original audio as well as the 5.1 track that I manually edited the exact same way that i did the 2.0 track are both in sync. The only problem I'm having is the laserdisc audio track.

I believe that you're right: it's playing the 44100 back as 48000. It's just slightly out of sync, not wildly. But then that begs the question of why it's doing it even if it's re-encoded? And how do I get it to stop doing that?

does your blu-ray player have the latest software / firmware update ??

[digitalfreaknyc]

does your blu-ray player have the latest software / firmware update ??

Yep.

[hech54]

I had a file like that once. It just would NOT sync up once it was removed from the original DVD. After years of revisiting this project occasionally.....I gave up.
My only thought was that this particular file was straddling two VOB files in the original DVD.....and that did something to it. SO annoying.

[digitalfreaknyc]

I had a file like that once. It just would NOT sync up once it was removed from the original DVD. After years of revisiting this project occasionally.....I gave up.
My only thought was that this particular file was straddling two VOB files in the original DVD.....and that did something to it. SO annoying.

But the problem isn't one of the originals. It's one of the two that I synced to the original.

[Cornucopia]

...It is NOT in sync on my blu-ray player, either via data disc or hard drive.

That, to me, sounds like you are not re-authoring, but rather saving & playing as a generic media file, using the "generic media file" player on the bluray. Re-authoring OUGHT to assist in maintaining proper sync, through timestamps and offsets added to the media streams and/or playlist info (VOB & IFO for DVD, M2TS & MPLS for Bluray, respectively). I'm betting this is over and above what a (non-authored) generic media file is capable of, as authored data is specifically designed to recover from variations in data read speed due to dropouts, etc, and that might affect sync. And normally, this wouldn't be an issue anyway, but yours is a special case, having gotten your audio from a separate, external source.
hech54 backhandedly alluded to this.


Scott

[digitalfreaknyc]

...It is NOT in sync on my blu-ray player, either via data disc or hard drive.

That, to me, sounds like you are not re-authoring, but rather saving & playing as a generic media file, using the "generic media file" player on the bluray. Re-authoring OUGHT to assist in maintaining proper sync, through timestamps and offsets added to the media streams and/or playlist info (VOB & IFO for DVD, M2TS & MPLS for Bluray, respectively). I'm betting this is over and above what a (non-authored) generic media file is capable of, as authored data is specifically designed to recover from variations in data read speed due to dropouts, etc, and that might affect sync. And normally, this wouldn't be an issue anyway, but yours is a special case, having gotten your audio from a separate, external source.
hech54 backhandedly alluded to this.


Scott

I'm not authoring. I said I'm playing it as a data file from all sources.

It just doesn't make sense that the other 2 audio files play back properly. And 1 of the 2 that does play back is also from a separate, external source. That file, however, is 5.1 48khz and DTS.

[jagabo]

Maybe the player is ignoring an initial audio delay value for the PCM track?

You haven't described it way it's out of sync. Is it a constant amount all through the video? Does it get more and more out of sync as the video plays?

[digitalfreaknyc]

Maybe the player is ignoring an initial audio delay value for the PCM track?

You haven't described it way it's out of sync. Is it a constant amount all through the video? Does it get more and more out of sync as the video plays?

Apologies.

There is no audio delay value on any of the tracks. It doesn't drift. Constant

[jagabo]

Is the audio playing early or late? By how much? What happens if you compress the audio to match one of the other audio tracks?

Is the video constant frame rate or variable frame rate? What codec?

[digitalfreaknyc]

Is the audio playing early or late? By how much? What happens if you compress the audio to match one of the other audio tracks?

Is the video constant frame rate or variable frame rate? What codec?

Playing too early, I believe. It's by a fraction of a second.
I haven't made an AC3 out of it - only uprezzed to 48kbps, which had no effect.
I also ran quickstream fix, which also had no effect.

HOWEVER....looks like you might have helped solve the problem.
Here's the mediainfo:

General
Unique ID                                : 209360928159280477783047832833958172665 (0x9D8172B4E3E80BE0F0F4A5E67FA957F9)
Complete name                            : blahblahblah
Format                                   : Matroska
Format version                           : Version 4
File size                                : 14.0 GiB
Duration                                 : 2 h 20 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 14.2 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-05-01 22:44:43
Writing application                      : mkvmerge v67.0.0 ('Under Stars') 64-bit
Writing library                          : libebml v1.4.2 + libmatroska v1.6.4

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4
Format settings                          : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 4 frames
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration                                 : 2 h 20 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 10.6 Mb/s
Nominal bit rate                         : 6 144 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 15.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.213
Stream size                              : 10.4 GiB (74%)
Writing library                          : x264 core 160 r3000
Encoding settings                        : cabac=1 / ref=4 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=4 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-3 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=3 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=119 / keyint_min=11 / scenecut=0 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=20 / rc=abr / mbtree=1 / bitrate=6144 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=12288 / vbv_bufsize=31250 / nal_hrd=none / filler=0 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio #1
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : A_PCM/INT/LIT
Duration                                 : 2 h 20 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 411.2 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS (1764 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 1.39 GiB (10%)
Title                                    : Laserdisc SPDIF
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No

Audio #2
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : DTS XLL
Format/Info                              : Digital Theater Systems
Commercial name                          : DTS-HD Master Audio
Codec ID                                 : A_DTS
Duration                                 : 2 h 20 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 2 002 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 6 channels
Channel layout                           : C L R Ls Rs LFE
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 93.750 FPS (512 SPF)
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Stream size                              : 1.97 GiB (14%)
Title                                    : DVD sync
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No

Audio #3
ID                                       : 4
Format                                   : E-AC-3
Format/Info                              : Enhanced AC-3
Commercial name                          : Dolby Digital Plus
Codec ID                                 : A_EAC3
Duration                                 : 2 h 20 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 224 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 226 MiB (2%)
Title                                    : Original Amazon
Language                                 : English
Service kind                             : Complete Main
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No

This might be a huge newbie mistake but wtf is up with those frame rates for the audio??

[Cornucopia]

Since AUDIO DOES NOT HAVE A FRAMERATE, it is likely the audio encoding app(s)s - uncompressed is still coded - and the muxing app(s) are trying their best to efficiently packetize the stream, but ultimately it turns out those aren't evently divisible in the same manner/along the same lines that the video framerate is. And then there is Mediainfo doing its best (but not good enough in this case) of translating that packetization as a "framerate".

Some compressed formats use the term "Frame" for their packet and/or analysis window granularity, but they are not frames in the sense that video is. And notice how Mediainfo has "SPF" aka samples per frame? Considering that frequency-domain codecs no longer use "samples" in the same sense that LPCM does, this is also misleading.

While these differences in demarcation might be indicated in cases of desynchronization, their existince is not necessarily the REASON for the desync.

Scott

[digitalfreaknyc]

Since AUDIO DOES NOT HAVE A FRAMERATE, it is likely the audio encoding app(s)s - uncompressed is still coded - and the muxing app(s) are trying their best to efficiently packetize the stream, but ultimately it turns out those aren't evently divisible in the same manner/along the same lines that the video framerate is. And then there is Mediainfo doing its best (but not good enough in this case) of translating that packetization as a "framerate".

Some compressed formats use the term "Frame" for their packet and/or analysis window granularity, but they are not frames in the sense that video is. And notice how Mediainfo has "SPF" aka samples per frame? Considering that frequency-domain codecs no longer use "samples" in the same sense that LPCM does, this is also misleading.

While these differences in demarcation might be indicated in cases of desynchronization, their existince is not necessarily the REASON for the desync.

Scott

Crap. Thanks. So I'm back to square 1...
No reason why this is happening.

[jagabo]

Maybe it's just a bug in the player. That's why I suggested converting the PCM to AC3 or some other common codec and checking.

[october262]

Since AUDIO DOES NOT HAVE A FRAMERATE, it is likely the audio encoding app(s)s - uncompressed is still coded - and the muxing app(s) are trying their best to efficiently packetize the stream, but ultimately it turns out those aren't evently divisible in the same manner/along the same lines that the video framerate is. And then there is Mediainfo doing its best (but not good enough in this case) of translating that packetization as a "framerate".

Some compressed formats use the term "Frame" for their packet and/or analysis window granularity, but they are not frames in the sense that video is. And notice how Mediainfo has "SPF" aka samples per frame? Considering that frequency-domain codecs no longer use "samples" in the same sense that LPCM does, this is also misleading.

While these differences in demarcation might be indicated in cases of desynchronization, their existince is not necessarily the REASON for the desync.

Scott

Crap. Thanks. So I'm back to square 1...
No reason why this is happening.

what program did you use to add the audio to the HD video files ??

[digitalfreaknyc]

Maybe it's just a bug in the player. That's why I suggested converting the PCM to AC3 or some other common codec and checking.

Honestly, that's what I'm thinking as well.

what program did you use to add the audio to the HD video files ??

It's above. mkvmerge v67.0.0

[october262]

Maybe it's just a bug in the player. That's why I suggested converting the PCM to AC3 or some other common codec and checking.

Honestly, that's what I'm thinking as well.

what program did you use to add the audio to the HD video files ??

It's above. mkvmerge v67.0.0

have you tried using ffmpeg ??

[hech54]

I had a file like that once. It just would NOT sync up once it was removed from the original DVD. After years of revisiting this project occasionally.....I gave up.
My only thought was that this particular file was straddling two VOB files in the original DVD.....and that did something to it. SO annoying.

But the problem isn't one of the originals. It's one of the two that I synced to the original.

What I meant to say was that the VIDEO I was trying to add CD(LPCM) audio to straddled to VOB files. The CD audio never would line up despite being identical in length and everything to the video. Having said that.....have you tried losslessly cutting a second or two off of the video. That has worked for me on several occasions.