Help with bloated files resulting from a Super 8 capture.

[gilbert12113]

Hello all.

Context: I am a newbie and not particularly interest in video tools [I am much more in music and books]

Context: I am or used to be a computer scientist and know my way around a PC, so I can install and do what you'd recommend

Context: 15 years ago, I asked the local photo shop to transfer Super 8 movies to a computer format. I did not pay much attention until a few days ago... and discovered that they are huge... Typically 700MB for 3'15".

Question: how can convert them to lighter files without loosing (too much) quality. I have tried random things with VLC, but don't know what I am doing.

More information: 25.00 frame/s ; Data rate 28805kbps; 720x576, no audio. type AVI. The tool used seems to be STUDIO 10.

Thanks in advance

G.

[gilbert12113]

Can someone help me with this video problem?

No response for 5-6 days. I would have thought VideoHelp was for Helping people who have Video problems. If not, please tell me which forum you would recommend for getting Help on Video.

Thanks in advance.

[DB83]

Not much info given.

Install a program called mediainfo and post a text-mode report of one of these videos.


We can then take it from there. And apologies from me at least since I did not see your original post.

[DB83]

And maybe to move progress a little quicker install another program called avidemux. Load a video, use the A/B markers for 20-30 secs of the video. Select copy for video and avi for the output format. Save the file and upload that here as an attachment. Then one can suggest ways to make the files smaller.

[usually_quiet]

If you could provide more complete information about the video it might improve your chances of getting help. An AVI file can be used to hold many types of video and audio.

Download and install MediaInfo. Open one of your files with MediaInfo. Click on "View" and then click on "Text" in the drop-down menu. Cut all the text in the window and paste it into a post in this thread.

It looks like DB83 and I had the same idea.

[Richard_G]

Looks to me like the footage has been saved as DV. 700Mb for 3'15" works out at just under 13Gb (700/3.25x60=12923) which is about spot on for a DV .avi file. I wouldn't call it huge personally, storage is cheap.

[usually_quiet]

Looks to me like the footage has been saved as DV. 700Mb for 3'15" works out at just under 13Gb (700/3.25x60=12923) which is about spot on for a DV .avi file. I wouldn't call it huge personally, storage is cheap.

I think keeping the original AVIs for archival purposes would be useful. However, if this really is DV, it makes sense to convert it to something else (for example, AVC in an mp4 container) that can fit on a USB flash drive and can be played by more devices.

[DB83]

Yes. The encoded bit-rate on the info provided does exactly match DV.avi. But IMO rather an odd choice of delivery format.

But we really need that sample to guide the OP in the best direction

[gilbert12113]

Can someone help me with this video problem?

No response for 5-6 days. I would have thought VideoHelp was for Helping people who have Video problems. If not, please tell me which forum you would recommend for getting Help on Video.

Thanks in advance.

@DB83 Here is the text report on one of the 20 files.

I will reply to other suggestions in another post

G.

General
Complete name : N:\*****\BGKJD.00.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name : DVCAM
File size : 882 MiB
Duration : 4 min 16 s
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 28.8 Mb/s
Writing library : VirtualDub build 24415/release

Video
ID : 0
Format : DV
Commercial name : DVCAM
Codec ID : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint : Sony
Duration : 4 min 16 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 24.4 Mb/s
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 FPS
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Bottom Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357
Stream size : 882 MiB (100%)

[gilbert12113]

Thanks all for your suggestions. I have provided the mediainfo suggested by DB83 and usually_quiet.

@DB83: Re: And apologies from me at least since I did not see your original post.

No need to apologise... I may have to do it for not being very patient.

@usually_quiet @all: Re: However, if this really is DV, it makes sense to convert it to something else (for example, AVC in an mp4 container) that can fit on a USB flash drive and can be played by more devices.

Indeed, this is what I'd need. Any suggestion about which software can do that (for free of course) and which common format (and which parameters) to use?

@Richard_G : Re: I wouldn't call it huge personally, storage is cheap.

Indeed, I have no problem for archival purpose - I only a 40ish of them, less than 36GB. However, this does not fit well for sending through dropbox or even sending a low quality version by email.

Thanks for your help

G.

[Alwyn]

Any suggestion about which software can do that (for free of course) and which common format (and which parameters) to use?

Handbrake. I'm not a whiz but, after loading your video, try these tab settings:

Summary: No change

Dimensions: No change Cropping: Custom, make all boxes 0 (the "Source Dimensions" should show your video dimensions), Resolution limit, set to your file resolution eg PAL SD 576P.

Filters: No ChangeDeinterlace set to Yadif

Video: Check video encoder on H264, set frame rate to match your file's frame rate and "Constant", set Quality slider to 18 (lower number=better quality, larger files)

Audio: set AAC bitrate to 192.

Subtitles/Chapters: no change

And lastly, Go to Tools>Preferences>Output Files down the bottom set "MP4 File Extension" to "Always use MP4".

You can experiment with the CRF setting to reduce the file size. On a PAL DV file, CRF 18 is giving me around 50mb/minute.

[DB83]

Thank you for the mediainfo report. This confirms everyone's suspicion that you do indeed have DV.avi.

Now in your initial post you mentioned "Studio 10" yet the report states the writing library to be Virtualdub.


Now it is more years than I care to admit to when I last handled 8mm film yet the 3+ mins for a 50ft reel felt right. But now I see 4+ mins


And since the original film would have played at 18 frames per second yet we now have DV at 25 frames per second some transcoding would appear to have gone on. Of course we do not know the original transfer process (for all we or you know your local store did not do the actual work)


Handbrake has been suggested. But there are others. More than happy to experiment for you with various, and free, softwares. And with the above remarks the sample is even more important now.

[Alwyn]

Gilbert, re a sample that will help us help you, if you have a file that is less than 500mb, you can attach it here directly to a post by using the Upload Files/Manage Attachments button. If they are all over 500mb, you could pick one that isn't R-rated and put it onto Google Drive (set the link "for anyone") and post the link here so we can download it.

Alternatively, use Virtual Dub 2 to trim a file to below 500mb without re-encoding. This old guide will help you. To get VDub running, unzip the zip, then just run "VDub2-32.exe".

Pipe up if you get stuck.

[VoodooFX]

And since the original film would have played at 18 frames per second yet we now have DV at 25 frames per second some transcoding would appear to have gone on. Of course we do not know the original transfer process (for all we or you know your local store did not do the actual work).

Why do I have feeling that OP meant Digital8 instead of "Super 8"...

[DB83]

^^ You may be right but then I would have expected some audio and why such sort run lengths ?

[gilbert12113]

Thanks to all for your further comments and suggestions.

@DB83 Re: But we really need that sample to guide the OP in the best direction

Well, I value privacy over many things... So I would not share these videos or excerpts on an open board. At least for the time being

@Alwyn and all Re: handbrake

will do that and let you know probably this evening UTC+1 or tomorrow (UTC+1 too)

@DB83 Re: Now in your initial post you mentioned "Studio 10" yet the report states the writing library to be Virtualdub.

I wrote Studio 10 because <details> there is a 'DVD SUPER 8' along with the files with a version.ini file saying among other things 'Product=Studio 10'. That was my only hint. </details>

@Alwyn Re: Alternatively, use Virtual Dub 2 to trim a file to below 500mb without re-encoding.

My goal here is to actually achieve something like 10-20Mb/minute. Low quality should be enough. I will certainly produce an intermediate quality level later on, and archive the three possibilities. Handbrake first, trying another tool later.

@RB83 Re: ^^ You may be right but then I would have expected some audio and why such sort run lengths ?

There is no audio at all. Because, this was taken partly with a mechanical camera (you had to wind up a spring on my father's 1950's camera), then partly with a 1978 amateur battery operated camera that I bought second hand a few years later - sound was very expensive then and not needed for family movies

WRT duration: the roll was 3' in the 50's and a little bit more in the 80's. I am not sure how 4' was possible - the shortest of my collection is 3'17, the longest is 4'16. I suspect the size was not really well calibrated (though the process was surely very well known. Unless there were different brands with thinner films?)

G.
PS: that does not make me so old... I was very young at the time

[DB83]

Well we all respect privacy. But you must realise that without an actual sample we are just 'feeling in the dark'

Would anyone, I guess there might be, know someone in the video ?. Yet I have uploaded a sample clip where there were people, just friends/acquantancies of me who might have been known from another source - one where I initially got to know them. Yet I gave it little thought that in, what is, yes, an open forum but equally quite an exclusive one which only those who, like yourself, find for the assistance.


And if we are talking about the 50's, or even the 80's, would any rando really recognise anyone ?


But it is your perrogative. You asked for help. But I often compare the availablity of help with a visit to the doctor. The doctor can guess. But without the full facts it is but a guess.


The ultimate choice is yours. But I have tried and will retire gracefully from the discussion in the event of no ferther information/sample

[Alwyn]

My goal here is to actually achieve something like 10-20Mb/minute. Low quality should be enough

I'm unsure of the exact relationship between CRF value verses MB/minute (lower CRF = higher quality/larger file size), but you can also use the Avg Bitrate setting on the Video tab to more accurately control the final size/MB per min. You'll need to experiment a bit. For example, using 3000kbps, I got 22mb/min on a DV file of mine.

DB83, to be fair to Gilbert, he did say:

how can convert them to lighter files without loosing (too much) quality. I have tried random things with VLC, but don't know what I am doing.

We probably don't need a sample to answer the question.

Now if he comes back and asks for tips to improve his videos, then we'll need a sample.

[DB83]

Anyway. Allow me to illustrate what is potentially possible. The upload is a 9 sec DV.avi with a conversion to AVC(h264) with an avg CRF @ 20, resized from the original 720*576 (non-square) to 720*540 (square) but also removing the original sound. So now we have a 34 mb original (excluding sound) reduced to 4.5 mb. My calclator tells me that we have a file sub 15% of the original. I did this quite quickly in avidemux without giving a thought of interlacing.

But my main concern is aspect ratio. Your DV (as with mine) will display as 768*576 4:3. Yet the original super 8 (standard 8 will be even smaller) is no where close to 4:3 or even 3:2. So your image could well be distorted at present.

[Alwyn]

My "quite quick" conversion to H264 at CRF 20 with Handbrake yielded basically the same bitrate. Mine, 32mb/min, yours 30mb/min. Your point?

As for format, a super 8 frame is apparently 5.8mm by 4.01mm, being a 1.45:1 ratio, between 4:3 and 3:2, so yes, Gilbert's is probably slightly distorted.

[DB83]

The only point is that there is more than one way to "swing a cat"

But important to appreciate that not all players support DAR flags and a 576p video could well end up as 5:4 and not 4:3. The simple resize takes care of that.


Using any CRF value (I thought your non-posted sample used 18) provides no guarantee of final bitrate. That was not the main purpose of the examples.


We can argue for ever as to what is best. And, I guess, we are both using original DV.avi whereas our friend is not.

[DB83]

I double checked (really should have spotted this before)

If there was filming in the 50's then the stock would have been regular 8 - super 8 only existed from the mid 60's. The AR for regular 8 is almost 4:3


The longer run length would be down to projector speed - the slower the speed the longer the run-time. So 4+ mins for a regular 8 film is possible.

[ConsumerDV]

Even for regular 8, which was 16 fps, 4:16 per 50-ft roll seems too long. Was it projected at 14 fps and digitized to 25 fps? Speeding it up to 30 fps would make it about right (Not that I know anything about film, just googled up some numbers).

[gilbert12113]

Dear all,

I have tried handbrake with the recommended process and settings (from alwyn). I tried a few values of RF, and chose 20. This gives a good enough result, (I can't see a real difference quality wise). Anyway I am keeping the huge files as a reference.

I can't of course thank you enough, because I would not have "guessed" what to do without huge efforts.


File size: high variability (between 9.7 and 30 MB per minute)

Super 8: correct. I mixed up my memories... The movies I wanted to convert were all Super 8, with a 1976-78 camera.

Privacy: privacy is privacy is privacy. I recommend you watch the Anon (2018) movie, final scene.

Thanks again

Gilbert

[DB83]

Well if you are happy with the final result, and the displayed image does not look distorted, then that is all that matters.