Tape-based Digital8, DV and HDV camcorders capable of sending video via USB

[ConsumerDV]

The topic was discussed on this forum before. This 2015 thread seems to be the most specific of the discussions with actual users' reports.

Panasonic DV camcorders capable of USB data transfer (USB2 in High-Speed mode or faster is required), "PV-" (NTSC) or "NV-" (PAL) prefix is assumed.

• GS35
• GS150
• GS180
• GS200
• GS230
• GS300
• GS320 - verified
• GS400
• GS500 - verified

JVC:

• GR-DV500
• GR-DV800
• GR-DV900
• GR-60
• GR-70

Feel free to add the models you know of, I will be updating this post accordingly.

I have both Panasonic PV-GS500 and NV-GS500 and can confirm that they transfer DV video over USB2+. Works for me in Windows 7 64-bit. No special drivers. Worked in Vegas capture module, then audio became disabled somehow. But Windows Photo Gallery works fine.

To everyone who thinks that USB transfer is low quality - it is not. Panasonic listed USB transfer as the primary method, and Firewire as the optional one. USB method was not available on Mac, though.

[lordsmurf]

What about frame dropping?

[ConsumerDV]

What about frame dropping?

There were some. In this video you can see there are 85/438, but I edited the video, so I am not sure when they appeared. I believe they were mostly at the start of the capture. I will try to capture a whole 1-hour tape and report the results.

[dellsam34]

I have captured Digital8 via Pinnacle 500-USB using USB port passthrough, though never looked for glitches or drop outs, I had it working under Win 7 and Win 10 using the Win 7 drivers from Pinnacle website.

[ConsumerDV]

I have captured Digital8 via Pinnacle 500-USB using USB port passthrough, though never looked for glitches or drop outs, I had it working under Win 7 and Win 10 using the Win 7 drivers from Pinnacle website.

The topic of the thread is: DV or HDV (Digital8 as well for good measure) camcorders that have USB port and are capable of sending DV or HDV video over USB digitally.

Pinnacle 500 is not a camcorder.

[dellsam34]

The camcorder does the emulation the exact same way the Pinnacle devices do from firewire to USB, D8 or miniDV they are the same signal. This answered Lordsmurf question about USB bottleneck as it has less bandwidth compared to IEE1394 port, I dug some of those files and found a lot of drop outs, I may have to revise my opinion about transferring DV over USB due to limited bandwidth.

[pchan]

USB 3.1 Gen 2 was released in July 2013. This usb version beat firewire in transfer speed.

[DB83]

Careful now. The OP does not want his own topics even going slighty 'off' even if he he does this, without shame, to others (even quoting posting guidlines in to the bargain)

But I watched that video. I only glanced briefly at the GS500 manual and failed to see the page that described usb transfer (other than 'saving important data' or words to that effect)


But back to the video. The camcorder is MiniDV. Yes ?. But the mediainfo report of the transfer - on screen oh so briefly - stated the video was now DVCPro. Surely these are incompatable formats and some transcoding has taken place.


Yes. Mediainfo is not perfect but a sample native vid speaks more than what yt can show.


And that level of frame dropping, wherever it happens, is not acceptable IMHO.

[lollo]

I may have to revise my opinion about transferring DV over USB due to limited bandwidth

The problem of frame drop is elsewhere. With USB 2.0 we are capable of capturing lossless analog video, much higher bitrate than DV (25Mbps).

[dellsam34]

USB 3.1 Gen 2 was released in July 2013. This usb version beat firewire in transfer speed.

Camcorders and devices with capability of emulating firewire over USB are USB 2.0, it doesn't matter if they are hooked up to USB 3.0 or USB 14.0.

The problem of frame drop is elsewhere. With USB 2.0 we are capable of capturing lossless analog video, much higher bitrate than DV (25Mbps).

In theory yes, In practice is another story.

[pchan]

USB 3.1 Gen 2 was released in July 2013. This usb version beat firewire in transfer speed.

Camcorders and devices with capability of emulating firewire over USB are USB 2.0, it doesn't matter if they are hooked up to USB 3.0 or USB 14.0.

mini DV tape only run at one speed and it need firewire to handle its throughput in DV format.
Otherwise, it needs to encode into another format in order to reduce its throughput either by the camcorder or some other device in order for the USB to handle.
One such device is the Pinnacle Moviebox.


[Attachment 64224 - Click to enlarge]

[Brad]

mini DV tape only run at one speed and it need firewire to handle its throughput in DV format.
Otherwise, it needs to encode into another format in order to reduce its throughput either by the camcorder or some other device in order for the USB to handle.
One such device is the Pinnacle Moviebox.


[Attachment 64224 - Click to enlarge]

The Pinnacle Moviebox does not re-encode the incoming DV stream. Anything that did would break compatibility with DV capture software.

A classic orsetto post for anyone who wants to settle in with a nice hot beverage: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/380541-Where-can-I-get-USB-3-0-to-Firewire-400-con...er#post2460147

The topic was discussed on this forum before. This 2015 thread seems to be the most specific of the discussions with actual users' reports.
[...]
To everyone who thinks that USB transfer is low quality - it is not. Panasonic listed USB transfer as the primary method, and Firewire as the optional one. USB method was not available on Mac, though.

Thanks for posting this list! Much appreciated.

[ConsumerDV]

A classic orsetto post for anyone who wants to settle in with a nice hot beverage: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/380541-Where-can-I-get-USB-3-0-to-Firewire-400-con...er#post2460147

Thanks! From his post:

The sad fact is FireWire is dead. It never really expanded beyond the Apple Mac market...

Wha...???

...aside from a brief flurry of Sony Vaio Windows laptops.

Ah! I still have a 1998 or 1999 Vaio equipped with 4-pin i.Link. Pentium III 500 MHz with 256 MB RAM. But I also have a 2008 HP Pavilion, which has a host of inputs including Firewire right on the front panel. Works for capturing DV when running Windows 7 64-bit.

So when fickle Apple decided to inexplicably throw FireWire under the bus and move to ThunderBolt (on the verge of USB3, yet- doh!) FireWire was doomed.

People hate Apple for coming up and then getting rid of connectors and protocols, but keep buying their stuff. Crazy. I have a Gen3 MBP. I got it after I was issued one at work and I liked it. The best laptop ever made. Never cared for Gen4. Aside of the laptop, I stay with Windows and Android.

[dellsam34]

There are quite few besides the Moviebox, the 500-USB, the flat square model, and probably more, As I said I managed to get mine working on Win10 using the old Win7 driver, But since they are driver dependent I suppose the camcorders with USB out will need some drivers from the camcorder manufacturer otherwise Windows will not see the camcorder.

[ConsumerDV]

The battery died at minute 53, it was still 28 dropped frames. Captured from the Panasonic PV-GS500.

[dellsam34]

Have you tried the same tape for 53 minutes over iLink to see how many frames will be dropped?

[DB83]

Well that sample kinda confirms what I previously wrote - that we now have DVCPro and not vanilla DV.Maybe it does not matter and I simply over-react. Maybe this is a result of a trim and the program that did the export applied that codec. Which is why the request was for a straight-from-camera sample and not, potentially, a resampling.

[dellsam34]

Indeed, my Pinnacle firewire to USB adapter produced DVCPro files, here is a sample from a customer tape (very low budget D8 camcorder), But I think that's just the commercial name, I will have to dig up some D8/miniDV files done over iLink and look at their specs.

[DB83]

Well DVCPRO is a variant of vanilla DV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV


and probably acts like it at 29.97/25 fps


It would be interesting if the OP did a similar -but direct from camera- sample using his PAL GS500 since that would prove the fact that it is not just reporting a 'commercial name'

[ConsumerDV]

There is no difference between DVCPRO and DV in a file-based form besides chroma subsampling. @DB83, do you expect to see 4:1:1 chroma in a PAL Panasonic camcorder? This would be a fun little experiment to do.

[DB83]

^^ Exactly that.

I have a file that was a trim from a longer DV recording that states 'DVCPRO' yet the full clip states 'DV'. Yet the chroma is 4.2.0 which kinda proves that the info is not accurate.


But it would still be enlightening to see the effect of a PAL recording in your workflow.


But I suspect that mediainfo is assuming that where it detects NTSC, whether DV or DVCPRO, it states 4.1.1 and 4.2.0 where it detects PAL.

[ConsumerDV]

@DB83, no dice. This is exactly why I bought a Panasonic DV camcorder - to send video over USB and not to fiddle with Firewire. I tried rolling up Windows updates, and it completely destroyed my install, the machine would blow up into BSD and restart every freaking time it would get to the login screen. I had to roll the update back.

I tried using legacy 1394 driver, did not help.

My Canon DV camcorder is recognized both by WinDV and by Scenalyzer. I had to install Canon's driver. When I turn it on, it shows as a separate audio/video device in the device manager.

So, maybe some other time.

[DB83]

Methinks you misunderstood me (or maybe I misunderstood you)

I thought earlier in this topic you stated you had both PAL and NTSC variants of the Panny g500.


So if you have the PAL variant you must have shot some video with it.


This has zero to do with a firewire connection (but that should work without issue on your Win7-64 and no additional driver). I am just curious as to what you would get from the PAL camcorder with the usb connection.

[ConsumerDV]

Yes, I misunderstood you. I mean, I understood but then forgot what I had understood. Five minutes ago when I was making coffee I realized what you have suggested and what I agreed to do, and then I did something else. This happens often with me lately. Alzheimers? I was not quick enough to update my post

Anyway, yes, I have both NV-GS500 ("PAL") and PV-GS500 ("NTSC"), so I shall connect the PAL one via USB and upload a sample. Cheers!

[ConsumerDV]

Attached a short sample.

MediaInfo:

General
Format                           : AVI
Format/Info                      : Audio Video Interleave
Format_Commercial_IfAny          : DVCPRO
File size                        : 38.9 MiB
Duration                         : 11s 280ms
Overall bit rate                 : 28.9 Mbps
Recorded date                    : 2019-09-21 17:38:29

Video
ID                               : 0
Format                           : DV
Format_Commercial_IfAny          : DVCPRO
Duration                         : 11s 280ms
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 24.4 Mbps
Width                            : 720 pixels
Height                           : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio             : 16:9
Frame rate mode                  : Constant
Frame rate                       : 25.000 fps
Standard                         : PAL
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Scan type                        : Interlaced
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 2.357
Stream size                      : 38.7 MiB (100%)
Encoding settings                : ae mode=manual / wb mode=pre-set / white balance=sunlight / fcm=manual focus

Audio
ID                               : 0-0
Format                           : PCM
Muxing mode                      : DV
Muxing mode, more info           : Muxed in Video #1
Duration                         : 11s 280ms
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                        : 16 bits
Stream size                      : 0.00 Byte (0%)

Vegas:

Video: 00:00:11.280, 25.000 fps progressive, 720x576x24, DV
Audio: 00:00:11.280, 48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, DV Audio

Also, some 2006 news from The Globe and Mail:

Firewire isn't a common feature on PCs (although standard on Macs) but until recently, was the only way to transfer video from a camcorder. Newer camcorders, the GS150 included, incorporate the more common USB 2.0 connector, making it that much easier for PC users to download video.

[Alwyn]

Another lizard dead at the hand of a cat.

Otherwise, nice, super-fast DV. I love it.

Edit: is that interlaced? Doesn't look like it to me. I see MI says it is but doesn't give the field order. If that is the case, it would seem there is a encode going on during the transfer?

[ConsumerDV]

Thanks, Alwyn! The cat video was shot in Digital Cinema mode a.k.a. Progressive Segmented Frame, which Vegas recognized as 25p. Full 576-line resolution, baby! From a 4-MPix sensor, which is native widescreen, not some low-res 4:3 crap on the DVX Cinematic video for the masses. Make a PAL DVD, or slow 4% down and make a 24p NTSC DVD... well, if you still live in 2006. It upscales to 720p rather well too.

Some more quotations. Here is one from 2008 review of the Panasonic NV-GS230 in Trusted Reviews:

As well as providing access to the contents of the SD memory card, the USB port can be switched between capturing DV on a PC or to use the NV-GS230 as a webcam, which is a handy extra capability.

And from a review of the Panasonic PV-GS250 from CamcorderInfo:

The camcorder can be connected to a computer for editing or viewing using the DV port or the USB port.

[ConsumerDV]

From the JVC GR-DV500, GR-DV800, GR-DV900 operating manual (attached). I with there was a spoiler feature on the forum. Panasonic's manuals are atrocious! I had to re-edit a couple of them. JVC's manuals in comparison are very concise.

[DB83]

Thank you for the sample, but as Alwyn points out this can raise as many questions as answers.

Kindly confirm that you used Vegas to trim a longer transfer. A trim which could have influenced what we now see e.g. frame-rate, interlacing (if any) etc.


The reason I asked, and still ask, for a direct from camera sample - and to clarify - with no third-party trim/encode was to, hopefully, elimanate any doubts. Surely if you shot @24 fps progressive then that is what we should see in the report.


If this is indeed a direct from camera sample then we simply can not trust what mediainfo tells us.

[ConsumerDV]

Thank you for the sample, but as Alwyn points out this can raise as many questions as answers.

Kindly confirm that you used Vegas to trim a longer transfer. A trim which could have influenced what we now see e.g. frame-rate, interlacing (if any) etc.


The reason I asked, and still ask, for a direct from camera sample - and to clarify - with no third-party trim/encode was to, hopefully, elimanate any doubts. Surely if you shot @24 fps progressive then that is what we should see in the report.


If this is indeed a direct from camera sample then we simply can not trust what mediainfo tells us.

I shot 25fps on a PAL camcorder. I suggested, half-jokingly, to "make a PAL DVD, or slow 4% down and make a 24p NTSC DVD". This is a DV-AVI file captured by a video import module from MS Photo Gallery in Win7: I started capture and then stopped capture. No editing or trimming whatsoever. I loaded it into Vegas just to check the metadata. MediaInfo is correct that the stream is interlaced. Vegas is correct that content is progressive. I suppose, there are flags that identify frames as progressive which MediaInfo ignores.

Attached is the same clip loaded into Vegas and saved as PAL DV Widescreen. It was saved lightning fast with "No recompression" message. Video bitrate is the same. IDK what sort of the 2 MB header Vegas has added. Feel free to check the metadata. Actually, I am going to list it right here for those who don't feel like downloading a 43 MB file.

General
Format                           : AVI
Format/Info                      : Audio Video Interleave
Format_Commercial_IfAny          : DV
File size                        : 41.0 MiB
Duration                         : 11s 280ms
Overall bit rate                 : 30.5 Mbps
Recorded date                    : 2022-04-12 23:43:24
TCOD                             : 519200000
TCDO                             : 632000000

Video
ID                               : 0
Format                           : DV
Codec ID                         : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint                    : Sony
Duration                         : 11s 280ms
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 24.4 Mbps
Width                            : 720 pixels
Height                           : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio             : 16:9
Frame rate mode                  : Constant
Frame rate                       : 25.000 fps
Standard                         : PAL
Color space                      : YUV
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Scan type                        : Interlaced
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 2.357
Stream size                      : 38.7 MiB (94%)

Audio
Format                           : PCM
Format settings, Endianness      : Little
Format settings, Sign            : Unsigned
Codec ID                         : 1
Codec ID/Hint                    : Microsoft
Duration                         : 11s 280ms
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                        : 16 bits
Stream size                      : 2.07 MiB (5%)
Interleave, duration             : 275 ms (6.88 video frames)
Interleave, preload duration     : 280 ms