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  1. Here are six frame grabs from the source window in VirtualDub2.
    • The video was produced by JVC in the late 1980s and was supplied with a motorized VHS-C to VHS adapter. Full video can be watched here (video).
    • The JVC GR-SX950 SVHS camcorder has built-in TBC, but does not play Hi-Fi stereo. A comparison to a cheap DV camcorder can be seen here (video). Frankly, the SX950 produces underwhelming video for SVHS badge.
    • The JVC GR-SZ7 SVHS camcorder records Hi-Fi stereo, but does not have TBC. A short review and some footage can be seen here (video). It shoots better video than the SX950 thanks to much higher sensor pixel count.
    • The "ViXS TV/FM" is a TV/FM/composite/SVideo combo card installed in my 2008 HP Pavilion, it uses ViXS chipset.
    • The DVC100 is Pinnacle Dazzle DVC100 A/D converter; a comparison of Dazzle models can be see here (video). I used some info from this forum as well.
    • The KWorld is a KWorld UB445-U2 Hybrid TV stick that also has analog input and can be used as A/D converer; it uses Conexant Polaris chip. I have a video where I use it together with Arcsoft Total Media to capture into DVD-legal MPEG-2.
    • DV conversion has been done through Canon Elura 100 (composite into the Canon, Firewire into a computer).

    JVC GR-SX950 + ViXS TV/FM


    JVC GR-SX950 + DVC100


    JVC GR-SX950 + KWorld


    JVC GR-SZ7 + ViXS TV/FM


    JVC GR-SZ7 + DVC100


    JVC GR-SZ7 + KWorld


    JVC GR-SX950 TBC ON + DV passthrough


    JVC GR-SX950 TBC OFF + DV passthrough
    Last edited by ConsumerDV; 10th Apr 2022 at 19:36. Reason: Changed the title to better reflect thread's content.
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  2. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    Pics are nice, but short lossless samples cut to the same frames would be better. (Like 5-10 secs each.)

    Does any of this equipment have built-in picture quality menu settings, like JVC VCRs do?

    You've got an interesting little YT channel there. I subbed a few days ago. Surprised how low the view counts are on your videos.

    Thanks for joining us here on the VideoHelp forum. The discussions you've found yourself in here have certainly been "lively" wouldn't you say...
    My YouTube channel with little clips: vhs-decode, comparing TBC, etc.
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  3. I have them in Cineform. Maybe I will re-capture them later in uncompressed. Color and sharpness controls were set to default values both on the camcorders and in VirtualDub2.

    Thanks for the welcome! Glad to be here. I don't mind lively discussions

    Some video samples:
    Last edited by ConsumerDV; 8th Apr 2022 at 22:16. Reason: Added video samples
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  4. More pix:

    SX950 (TBC ON) - SVideo - AVerMedia CE310B - VDub2 (uncompressed)


    JVC GR-SX950 + ViXS TV/FM


    JVC GR-SX950 + DVC100


    JVC GR-SX950 + KWorld


    JVC GR-SZ7 + ViXS TV/FM


    JVC GR-SZ7 + DVC100


    JVC GR-SZ7 + KWorld


    JVC GR-SX950 TBC ON + DV passthrough (JVC GR-D93U)


    JVC GR-SX950 TBC ON + DV passthrough (Canon Elura 100)


    JVC GR-SX950 TBC OFF + DV passthrough (Canon Elura 100)
    Last edited by ConsumerDV; 20th Apr 2022 at 17:34. Reason: Added AVerMedia CE310B screenshot
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  5. Just based on the pictures:
    There are - as expected - differences in color tint, chroma noise, chroma sharpness, (sharpening) halos, line wiggle, other artefacts .....
    In general the 'DV passthrough' suffer from blurry chroma, as I see it.
    It looks like the tapes are in very good condition.
    Last edited by Sharc; 9th Apr 2022 at 04:49. Reason: typos
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  6. Did you adjust any settings on the capture cards? Some have some sharpening (sharpness setting) on by default which you generally don't want for VHS capture.

    Also seems to be some differences in what line the capture devices start at, vixs one is shifted down a lot, dazzle is shifted the other way a bit much maybe, kworld starts on the half-line which seems best in this regard.

    I think the vixs card uses a NXP/Philips video ic but not sure which one exactly.
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  7. JVC GR-SZ7 + DVC100 looks the best imo
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  8. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    [double post, sorry]
    My YouTube channel with little clips: vhs-decode, comparing TBC, etc.
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  9. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    The "ViXS TV/FM" is a TV/FM/composite/SVideo combo card installed in my 2008 HP Pavilion, it uses ViXS chipset.
    Originally Posted by oln View Post
    I think the vixs card uses a NXP/Philips video ic but not sure which one exactly.
    According to another post, model number is 48B0 (this particular thread has a typo adding an extra 0). Definitely NXP chip visible upside-down in ConsumerDV's photo. I think I can barely make out SAA7136. Something like 48A3?
    My YouTube channel with little clips: vhs-decode, comparing TBC, etc.
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  10. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    Between the 2 video samples provided, I have a preference for ViXS capture

    comparison frame 250: https://imgsli.com/MTAzMjEx (use fullscreen and zoom)

    comparison frame 340: https://imgsli.com/MTAzMjEy (use fullscreen and zoom)

    even if judging interlaced frames is weird and the YUV levels are not coherent between the 2 captures:

    Image
    [Attachment 64205 - Click to enlarge]


    Image
    [Attachment 64206 - Click to enlarge]
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  11. I updated "JVC GR-SZ7 + KWorld" screenshot, it was not correct, I apologize.

    My own observations:

    Between ViXS, DVC100 and KWorld I like ViXS the most, KWorld the least. DVC100 produces image with sort of shimmering, kind of faint noise. KWorld has more color noise but but does not have the shimmering. ViXS is the cleanest.

    On the screenshot with an envelope DVC100 ranges [5, 255], ViXS [0,244] with sharp drop-off (there are some values close to 255, I think they are from the head switching area), KWorld [0, 246] with soft fall-off.

    The SZ7 does not have TBC, so it was interesting how different ADCs handle it. The ViXS is the best, KWorld is the worst. Maybe - just maybe - a high[er]-quality ADC can alleviate the need for line TBC? Oops, I should not have said that.

    Now, the Canon DV conversion. Frankly, I like it. Yes, it is softer, but for skin it works better. Look at the woman's face: red face with green shade. Her hand just below the sleeve - green shade again. Now thinking about it, maybe I could shift Q chroma component up and left? Trying Flaxen VHS right now (I use exclusively VirtalDub2 for this stuff, I have never been adept with Avisynth), not sure it is much better. Now look at Canon DV version, both the face and the hand are smoother in color, the skin tone is more natural, although the countertop tiles look pinkish - adding a bit of blue to high tones will help with this.

    I suppose that Canon DV version also may seem softer because there is less sharpening, the ringing at the edges is less pronounced. Oh, and no macroblocking. Comparing camcorders I worked with I would rank them as Canon, Panasonic, Sony, JVC. I never saw macroblocking with Canon, did see with JVC. It seems that DataVideo external DV converter would be a distant fifth

    Between the two camcorders, the SX950 seems to be a better VTR than the SZ7. I think that the branding on child's sleeve starts with "B" or "D", and there is "i", I can see something that looks like a dot on the "i". I don't see this dot on the SZ7 output. The SZ7 is a much better camera, though. So, shoot with the SZ7 and capture with the SX950? Sadly, the SX950 does not play Hi-Fi stereo.

    Here are DVC100, ViXS and CanonDV together in one screenshot - in this order left to right - in Vegas. Pulled them from the source window of VirtualDub2. I apologize for the sloppy levels and color correction.

    Scopes: DVC100, ViXS, CanonDV


    Scopes: DVC100, ViXS, CanonDV, adjusted, video levels


    Scopes: DVC100, ViXS, CanonDV, adjusted, computer levels
    Last edited by ConsumerDV; 9th Apr 2022 at 17:22.
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  12. Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    ...I use exclusively VirtalDub2 for this stuff, I have never been adept with Avisynth ...
    You may be missing something. For fixing deficiencies Avisynth has many excellent filters which work in YUV colorspace which is preferable for analog captures in YUV. Many of the VirtualDub2 filters work in RGB only, means the video has to be converted to RGB, possibly producing non-recoverable out-of-gamut issues unless the levels are carefully controlled for capturing.
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  13. Originally Posted by oln View Post
    Did you adjust any settings on the capture cards? Some have some sharpening (sharpness setting) on by default which you generally don't want for VHS capture.
    All capture settings are default. I wanted to capture as is and then adjust to taste, but looks like things like oversharpening should be dealt at capture time. Thanks for the tip!
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  14. Passthrough mode via JVC GR-D93U (SVideo IN, DV out). Video only. There is a TRRS jack for composite A/V, both can be used simultaneously, and the camcorder will pick SVideo for video if SVideo cable is inserted - nice!

    It took some time for Win7 64-bit to re-jiggle the drivers. Scenalyzer finally was able to find the device, but WinDV could not.

    Comparison between Canon Elura 100 and JVC GR-D93U DV passthrough: https://imgsli.com/MTA0NzMz
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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    Image Attached Files
    Last edited by ConsumerDV; 18th Apr 2022 at 20:34. Reason: Added a comparison between Canon Elura 100 and JVC GR-D93U
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  15. So I am comparing the SVideo/ViXS/Cineform path (which is supposedly 4:2:2) and Composite-CanonDV path (which is 4:1:1) and I see horizontal streaks in both: https://imgsli.com/MTA0NzQ3 I expected chroma in the SVideo/ViXS/Cineform to look more like squares. Did I mess it up somewhere?
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  16. The S-video is sharper, and has more details, perhaps somewhat stronger halos as well. Also the colors are more saturated. You can inspect and compare luma and chroma planes in avisynth, something like
    Code:
    clip=last
    Y=clip.greyscale() #luma Y
    U=clip.UtoY()  # chroma U
    V=clip.VtoY()  #chroma V
    Last edited by Sharc; 19th Apr 2022 at 03:59.
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  17. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    So I am comparing the SVideo/ViXS/Cineform path (which is supposedly 4:2:2) and Composite-CanonDV path (which is 4:1:1) and I see horizontal streaks in both: https://imgsli.com/MTA0NzQ3 I expected chroma in the SVideo/ViXS/Cineform to look more like squares. Did I mess it up somewhere?
    Look more like squares?? Please explain.

    In pixel terms, less than 60px across the width of the image are needed to store the entire possible theoretical chroma bandwidth of VHS (of course, in practice it will often be worse). S-VHS uses the same chroma bandwidth, and Hi8 is similar. All look smeared.

    4:1:1 being detrimental for consumer analog tape source is a myth that just won't die no matter how much evidence is presented. It's also conflated with the fact that DV compression can harm chroma. No other format uses 4:1:1, so the two are seen as going hand-in-hand.
    My YouTube channel with little clips: vhs-decode, comparing TBC, etc.
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  18. We are presented screenshots and clips for comparison from different cameras using different capture devices, different capture methods and formats (PAL DV video, NTSC DV video, 4:2:2, 4:2:0, 4:1:1 .....) with different settings in this thread.
    Nice, but what is really expected from this? Collecting comments, personal (subjective) ratings and "recommendations"? Proving something? Solving a problem?
    Never mind my confusion, seems I have just somehow lost the focus
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  19. Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    So I am comparing the SVideo/ViXS/Cineform path (which is supposedly 4:2:2) and Composite-CanonDV path (which is 4:1:1) and I see horizontal streaks in both: https://imgsli.com/MTA0NzQ3 I expected chroma in the SVideo/ViXS/Cineform to look more like squares. Did I mess it up somewhere?
    Look more like squares?? Please explain.
    Brain fart. For I moment I thought that the SVideo/ViXS sample was 4:2:0, not 4:2:2 which it really is (hopefully).
    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    In pixel terms, less than 60px across the width of the image are needed to store the entire possible theoretical chroma bandwidth of VHS (of course, in practice it will often be worse). S-VHS uses the same chroma bandwidth, and Hi8 is similar. All look smeared.

    4:1:1 being detrimental for consumer analog tape source is a myth that just won't die no matter how much evidence is presented.
    Right. So I expected shorter streaks in the SVideo version, but they don't look much different than in a DV capture. Do you share the opinion that 4:1:1 being detrimental for consumer analog tape source is a myth?
    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    It's also conflated with the fact that DV compression can harm chroma. No other format uses 4:1:1, so the two are seen as going hand-in-hand.
    So your take is that it is DV compression harms chroma, not 4:1:1 per se?

    I see a difference in saturation, but not a lot of difference in detail between SVideo/ViXS/Cineform and DV passthrough. I am looking at the hair or at the child's sleeve, there is a brand name, which is equally unrecognizable in either capture
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  20. Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    We are presented screenshots and clips for comparison from different cameras using different capture devices, different capture methods and formats (PAL DV video, NTSC DV video, 4:2:2, 4:2:0, 4:1:1 .....) with different settings in this thread.
    Nice, but what is really expected from this? Collecting comments, personal (subjective) ratings and "recommendations"? Proving something? Solving a problem?
    Never mind my confusion, seems I have just somehow lost the focus
    There was no PAL or 4:2:0, only NTSC 4:2:2 and 4:1:1.

    It is up to anyone to make their own comparisons, conclusions and comments, for example:
    • A camcorder with TBC outputs more stable frame that a camcorder without TBC (duh!)
    • Some capture cards are less tolerant to the output from camcorders without TBC than other (KWorld/Conexant video is particularly skewed)
    • A particular PCI riser card seem to outperform two particular USB dongles, which may be practical considering that the DVC 100 is a popular dongle
    • The output from the DVC 100 is a bit "rough" / noisy
    • DV passthrough captures do not look awful or blocky despite horror stories about DV compression, although they look a bit softer
    • 4:1:1 chroma does not seem to lose much info in real-life VHS capture, although the DV colors are less saturated
    • Canon colors look the most natural for the particular scene
    • ViXS card seems to push too much green
    So far my overall take from these samples is that DV passthrough captures are quite acceptable. Considering that DV is well-known and supported, I consider DV capture as a worthy no-fuss alternative to fiddling with uncompressed.

    Top: SVideo/ViXS, middle: Composite into Canon DV passthrough, bottom: SVideo into JVC passthrough. I can see rainbow effect on the child's collar on Canon's capture (is it because of composite vs SVideo?), there is no rainbow on JVC capture. Also the branding on his sleeve is less legible on the Canon. I think that on the top image I can make the first letter either "B" or "D", and the third of fourth letter is "i", but the difference is really minimal.

    JVC indeed looks a bit blocky, which matches my other experience with a JVC DV camcorder. Canon is smooth if a bit soft, which supports high opinion of Canon's tuning of DV codec.

    Last edited by ConsumerDV; 19th Apr 2022 at 13:23.
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  21. Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    There was no PAL or 4:2:0, only NTSC 4:2:2 and 4:1:1.
    Yep, the PAL DV 4:2:0 were the clips with the cat and the fence from your other thread. My bad, sorry.
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  22. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    Top: SVideo/ViXS, middle: Composite into Canon DV passthrough, bottom: SVideo into JVC passthrough.
    [...]
    JVC indeed looks a bit blocky, which matches my other experience with a JVC DV camcorder. Canon is smooth if a bit soft, which supports high opinion of Canon's tuning of DV codec.

    The bottom image (blocky JVC) is using a different resizer.


    Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    4:1:1 being detrimental for consumer analog tape source is a myth that just won't die no matter how much evidence is presented.
    [...] Do you share the opinion that 4:1:1 being detrimental for consumer analog tape source is a myth?
    You copy-pasted my words, so yes, I do indeed agree with myself. Lol...

    Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    It's also conflated with the fact that DV compression can harm chroma. No other format uses 4:1:1, so the two are seen as going hand-in-hand.
    So your take is that it is DV compression harms chroma, not 4:1:1 per se?
    Yes.

    For (PAL) Video8, we have this comparison: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/360804-DV-vs-lossless-capture-of-VHS/page3#post2394218

    For Hi8 -> DV, I additionally see compression artifacts on luma. DV conversion vs lossless capture - comparison (Hi8) [WARNING: auto-load!]
    My YouTube channel with little clips: vhs-decode, comparing TBC, etc.
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  23. Originally Posted by Brad View Post
    You copy-pasted my words, so yes, I do indeed agree with myself. Lol...
    Just checking. One can never know for sure. There are people using Canopus boxes yet blasting DV capture

    Thanks for the links with comparisons! I agree with johnmeyer, who said, "I think that several people who have been trashing the "DV codec" here in this forum only know the really crummy versions of that codec. Not all DV codecs are created equal".

    Added to this comparison the same VHS sample, digitized through AVerMedia CE310B.
    Image Attached Files
    Last edited by ConsumerDV; 20th Apr 2022 at 17:22.
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