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  1. Hi,
    I have over forty DV-AVI captures taking from my Sony video camera that I need to convert to Mpeg2. I have already done this before, way back in 2006 using Nero 7 to encode and author to DVD. I was never happy with the results of having to compress them to fit onto DVD. I just bought TMPGEnc Master Works 7 and I'm hopping to get better results by encoding to file this time, bypassing the DVD limitations. Unfortunately, there in no user manual for MW7 to explain any of the settings.
    I want to make sure I'm using the best settings for the best possible picture quality before I start converting all of them. I'm not converting these to reduce the file size, only converting because AVI is not a supported format for my video player. I don't want to use any Filters, prefer raw video without any additional processing. Once again, I don't care at all about the final file sizes as these will all be stored on a external 4TB HDD and played thru an Oppo UDP-203.
    I'm limited to using the Standard Encoder and MP@(Automatic)ML as Profile & Level.

    Any help would be appreciated......thanks.
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  2. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    Use vidcoder and encode to h264 mkv or mp4.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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  3. You could also consider the mfx container for a simple remux, if your player is able to play mfx
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  4. Very few players outside a PC will play DV in any container. Encoding to something else is usually a necessity. And DV AVI will usually be interlaced so it needs to be encoded interlaced or deinterlaced before encoding, whatever codec you use.
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  5. Member DB83's Avatar
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    FTR*

    Even a simple avidemux will convert DV.avi to mpeg-2. The issue is what bitrates such a conversion supports.


    The 'default' is still dvd - maybe not what was experienced but still 'dvd' @ 9250 kbps video (audio is extra)


    To actually acquire a program in 2022 to convert legacy programs is thowing good money after bad.


    Like I inferred to, avidemux should provide adequate mpeg-2 bitrate. Whilst mpeg-2, AFAIK, can go to 25 m/bs (actually higher than that DV source you have) you require bespoke Mpeg-2 encoders. Maybe HEnc can do that. Not that it gives you any more real quality than that is on the DV.avi.


    * I did a quick conversion of avi.dv to .mpg within avidemux. There are multiple issues what you must address. DV (NTSC) will always display @ 640*480. Then you have the interlaced field-order that for avi is, typically, bottom-field-first whereas mpeg-2 is ,typically, top-field-first. To ask a new product to deal with legacy formats is really 'throwing dice' - they may work but typically do not.
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  6. Originally Posted by johns0 View Post
    Use vidcoder and encode to h264 mkv or mp4.
    The mp4 family always uses way too much compression and knocks the sharpness out of the video, get better results with mpeg2 so that's what I'm sticking with.
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  7. Originally Posted by ProWo View Post
    You could also consider the mfx container for a simple remux, if your player is able to play mfx
    The Oppo UDP-203 doesn't support that file type, never even heard of that file type. I think no matter what container you put an AVI file into the player is still going to know it's AVI and not be able to play it.
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  8. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Very few players outside a PC will play DV in any container. Encoding to something else is usually a necessity. And DV AVI will usually be interlaced so it needs to be encoded interlaced or deinterlaced before encoding, whatever codec you use.
    Exactly, the AVI files are interlaced and encoding to mpeg2 keeps them interlaced which is what I want. My TV plays interlaced content really good, no need for deinterlacing which usually never works well, degrading the picture quality.
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  9. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    Mpeg2 is antiquated codec and what you said is untrue,Any codec can reduce sharpness of videos with too low of a bitrate,mpeg2 is low to begin with so you won't as good results as with h264 and up.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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  10. Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    FTR*
    The 'default' is still dvd - maybe not what was experienced but still 'dvd' @ 9250 kbps video (audio is extra)
    I'm encoding to File not DVD. With the Master Works 7 https://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tvmw7.html I can use a 15,000 bitrate.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    FTR*
    Like I inferred to, avidemux should provide adequate mpeg-2 bitrate. Whilst mpeg-2, AFAIK, can go to 25 m/bs (actually higher than that DV source you have) you require bespoke Mpeg-2 encoders. Maybe HEnc can do that. Not that it gives you any more real quality than that is on the DV.avi.
    Actually, my AVI's are at almost 29 Mbps Image
    [Attachment 63924 - Click to enlarge]



    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    FTR*
    I did a quick conversion of avi.dv to .mpg within avidemux. There are multiple issues what you must address. DV (NTSC) will always display @ 640*480. Then you have the interlaced field-order that for avi is, typically, bottom-field-first whereas mpeg-2 is ,typically, top-field-first. To ask a new product to deal with legacy formats is really 'throwing dice' - they may work but typically do not.
    Yeah, my DV-AVI videos are 720 x 480 so that would be a downgrade. Master Works 7 is keeping the correct field order, bottom-first when encoding to mapeg2.
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  11. Does anyone here actually own TMPGEnc Master Works 7 https://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tvmw7.html
    and have experience using all the settings when encoding to mpeg-2 ?
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  12. Member
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    If you have some issues post some screen shots of the app/settings and use it
    with your question(s)
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  13. Originally Posted by johns0 View Post
    Mpeg2 is antiquated codec and what you said is untrue,Any codec can reduce sharpness of videos with too low of a bitrate,mpeg2 is low to begin with so you won't as good results as with h264 and up.
    I tried H264 and Mpeg2 both at 15Mbps. The Mpeg2 wasn't too far off from the original AVI quality with a finished file size of 8.6GB. The H264 with a finished file size of just under 1GB looked like any crappy web video that you would find on a amateur porn site. It just didn't have the same sharpness/detail that the mpeg2 was able to retain.
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    The details are important, either post a mediainfo (text view) report for your efforts,
    Or an actual clip of each
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  15. Originally Posted by Purple2112 View Post
    I tried H264 and Mpeg2 both at 15Mbps. The Mpeg2 wasn't too far off from the original AVI quality with a finished file size of 8.6GB. The H264 with a finished file size of just under 1GB looked like any crappy web video that you would find on a amateur porn site.
    You did something wrong. If they were both at 15 Mb/s they would have been about the same size. Your h264 video has only 1/8 the bitrate of the mpeg2 video -- it's no surprise the h264 video looks bad. If you don't have another h.264 encoder upload your source and I'll convert it for you. I guarantee the quality will be better than your MPEG2 encoding.
    Last edited by jagabo; 21st Mar 2022 at 20:41.
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  16. Member DB83's Avatar
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    And you fail to understand the difference between Sample (Storage) Aspect Ratio = 720*480 and the final display = 640*480 (before any upscaling on your actual display). (Or just do the maths (480/3*4)

    You wasted your money. Better had you asked first rather than buy and ask after. (As I already said, I can do what you require and at no cost)
    Last edited by DB83; 21st Mar 2022 at 17:42.
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  17. Member Skiller's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Purple2112 View Post
    Does anyone here actually own TMPGEnc Master Works 7 https://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tvmw7.html
    and have experience using all the settings when encoding to mpeg-2 ?
    Probably nobody here does. Last time I used TMPGEnc (XPress) was in 2008 or so because I switched to other MPEG2 encoders. But it doesn't matter because most settings are shared among pretty much all MPEG2 encoders out there. So if you have questions about the settings, just ask.
    I have almost two decades of experience in MPEG2 encoding.
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  18. Member DB83's Avatar
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    As for bitrate, read this legacy topic.

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/233010-Question-about-minidv-bitrate


    Which explains the difference between the DV (video) bitrate @24.4 mb/s against the total video bitrate @ 28.8 mb/s - even my own DV captures quote 28.8 (excluding audio)


    And quality-wise that 8,000 kb/s mpeg2 gives practically the same quality. More than that, unless you just want i-frame, is just a waste.
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  19. Member Skiller's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Purple2112 View Post
    I have already done this before, way back in 2006 using Nero 7 to encode and author to DVD. I was never happy with the results of having to compress them to fit onto DVD. I just bought TMPGEnc Master Works 7 and I'm hopping to get better results by encoding to file this time, bypassing the DVD limitations.
    DVD limitations were not the problem, it was Nero.
    It is perfectly possible to make very high quality DVD-compliant encodings from a shaky home video DV source, although it certainly does come with some pitfalls.

    But if you are not aiming for DVD or some broadcast delivery format, there is barely a good reason to use MPEG2!
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  20. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    How about there is no good reason to use mpeg2 as a codec for anything but dvd authored.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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  21. Member Skiller's Avatar
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    For typical applications the hobbyist has that would apply, but I'm not inclined to agree this is always the case.
    For one, interlaced support on the playback side is by far best with MPEG2.
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  22. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by Purple2112 View Post
    I tried H264 and Mpeg2 both at 15Mbps. The Mpeg2 wasn't too far off from the original AVI quality with a finished file size of 8.6GB. The H264 with a finished file size of just under 1GB looked like any crappy web video that you would find on a amateur porn site.
    You did something wrong. If they were both at 15 Mb/s they would have been about the same size. Your h264 video has only 1/8 the bitrate of the mpeg2 video -- it's no surprise the h264 video looks bad. If you don't have another h.264 encoder upload your source and I'll convert it for you. I guarantee the quality will be better than your MPEG2 encoding.
    My bad, I must have clicked on the wrong H.264 file when doing a size comparison. They are both really close in size, in fact the H.264 is slightly larger. I'm not sure what you mean by my H.264 has only 1/8 the bitrate of the mpeg2. I just encoded two of the same video, one as H.264 and the other mpeg2. I set both to VBR(Constant Quality) @ 15Mbps Max and (Quality) to 100, see settings.
    Image
    [Attachment 63999 - Click to enlarge]
    Image
    [Attachment 64000 - Click to enlarge]

    When playing them and checking the info it shows the mpeg2 using about 12 1/2 Mbps video bitrate and the H.264 using about 14 1/2. (this was with a video with very little movement)
    Image
    [Attachment 64001 - Click to enlarge]
    Image
    [Attachment 64002 - Click to enlarge]

    As for having you convert them for me, I have over forty to convert and they are all adult videos of girlfriends/female friends and I can't risk having them leaked to the public, but thanks.

    For right now I want to first try using the best setting for mpeg2, member (Skiller) has experience using TMPGEnc/Pegasy software and maybe you and others from this thread will help, most settings are universal across all software, but I've always just used the defaults. This time I want to try different advanced settings. Then, I'll try the best H.264 settings and compare the two. After that, I'm more than willing to try different encoders/free software that you and other members in this thread have mentioned. I'm already stuck with this new software so I may as well try pushing it to the limits to see what kind of quality I can get from it.
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  23. Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    And you fail to understand the difference between Sample (Storage) Aspect Ratio = 720*480 and the final display = 640*480 (before any upscaling on your actual display). (Or just do the maths (480/3*4)

    You wasted your money. Better had you asked first rather than buy and ask after. (As I already said, I can do what you require and at no cost)
    The displayed picture on my TV never looks stretched whether connecting the video camera directly to the TV or converting over to mpeg. The software is doing the 4:3 Aspect Ratio @ (Pixel 10:11) granted it's not 1:1, but it's always looked fine to me. I never even thought about it until you mentioned it.
    I just tried converting one after adjusting the resolution down to 640x480 and the picture doesn't seem as sharp now. Is this because now the software actually has to use a filter and reprocess the entire video instead of just encoding the AVI over to mpeg?
    Does it matter whether I do a crop or changing the resolution, either way it does the 4:3 @ a 1:1 Pixel ratio. I could kill two birds with one stone by cropping, I could center subjects that are slightly off and correct the resolution at the same time?

    As for wasting my money, many people swear by TMPGEnc/Pegasy software for editing/creating 4K content. I plan on using it for editing 4K videos after I'm done converting all my AVI's. I've already downloaded the Avidemux install file that you suggested, but want ot see what I can get out of this software first.
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  24. Originally Posted by Purple2112 View Post
    Originally Posted by johns0 View Post
    Use vidcoder and encode to h264 mkv or mp4.
    The mp4 family always uses way too much compression and knocks the sharpness out of the video, get better results with mpeg2 so that's what I'm sticking with.
    I stand corrected now after experimenting a little with both and am willing to try converting to both , but want to see what I can get from Mpeg2 first and then compare the two.
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  25. Member DB83's Avatar
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    As for resing etc it is a little more complicated than I inferred. The image width of 720 pixels on the DV include 16 (some argue 18) of black. Only when the 16 are cropped away will you get the true 4:3 image (720-16=704)/11*10 = 640.

    Simple cropping away from 720 to 640 actually makes the image slimmer since you still have the PAR of 10/11 and has you already stated you lose detail were you to attempt a compromise with a PAR of 1:1.


    A quite common alternative is to resize from 720*480 to 720*540 and PAR 1:1. With the high bitrate there is also little harm resizing to 1440*1080 so a tv does not have to rescale (unless its 4K and I would not suggest you resize any higher)


    The main issue keeping at 720*480, despite what your eyes tell you, is that not all players recognise the original PAR/DAR and you will end up with a stretched image.


    Even then a maximum bitrate of 15 mb/s for SD material (6-7 gb per hour) is way too high - throwing bitrate at the lossy compression of DV is not going to save the overall quality. But at the end of the day it is your perogative. And it is a shame that you can not share even a short sample - 20 to 30 seconds would be ample - just to show what could be done with your footage.
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  26. Originally Posted by Purple2112 View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by my H.264 has only 1/8 the bitrate of the mpeg2.
    You initially reported you encoded a video at 15 Mb/s and that the MPEG 2 file was about 8 GB and the h.264 file was about 1 GB. It they were both encoded at the same bitrate they would both be the same size. If the h264 video was 1/8 the size of the MPEG 2 video then the h.264 video has 1/8 the bitrate of the MPEG 2 video. You've cleared that up now by indicating you were looking at the wrong file.

    Originally Posted by Purple2112 View Post
    I just encoded two of the same video, one as H.264 and the other mpeg2. I set both to VBR(Constant Quality) @ 15Mbps Max and (Quality) to 100, see settings.
    That doesn't mean both videos were encoded at 15 Mb/s -- only that the max bitrate used anywhere in the video was limited to 15 Mb/s. For example, here's a bitrate graph of a short video:

    Image
    [Attachment 64014 - Click to enlarge]


    The average bitrate of the video is 1456 Kbps. But many parts have more or less than the average. The max bitrate of the video is 5209 Kbps. But it's the average that determines the file size, not the max. What you are doing by setting the max bitrate is limiting the peaks. For example, if I had set the max bitrate to 2500 Kbps when I encoded that video it would have looked something like:

    Image
    [Attachment 64015 - Click to enlarge]


    (Note, I edited the first image to produce the second image. I just erasing the peaks. I didn't change the stats at the bottom so they aren't valid.) The video at all those truncated peaks would be of lower quality than they would have been without the limit. And since the peaks are truncated the average bitrate would have been a little lower.
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  27. Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    FTR* Then you have the interlaced field-order that for avi is, typically, bottom-field-first whereas mpeg-2 is ,typically, top-field-first. To ask a new product to deal with legacy formats is really 'throwing dice' - they may work but typically do not.
    Yes, the AVI Clip Properties shows Bottom-field-first and then the software just carries over the same field order unless I change it.
    Image
    [Attachment 64016 - Click to enlarge]
    Image
    [Attachment 64017 - Click to enlarge]
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  28. Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    As for bitrate, read this legacy topic.

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/233010-Question-about-minidv-bitrate


    Which explains the difference between the DV (video) bitrate @24.4 mb/s against the total video bitrate @ 28.8 mb/s - even my own DV captures quote 28.8 (excluding audio)
    Okay, the info on that link states: DV uses DCT intraframe compression at a fixed bitrate of 25 megabits per second (25.146 Mbit/s) without the added sound data, the subcode data, error detection, and error correction. I knew the difference between video bitrate and total bitrate. I was just confused when you said
    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    FTR*Whilst mpeg-2, AFAIK, can go to 25 m/bs (actually higher than that DV source you have)
    My DV source video bitrate is 25MBps



    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    And quality-wise that 8,000 kb/s mpeg2 gives practically the same quality. More than that, unless you just want i-frame, is just a waste.
    Now this is interesting, so I can do just i-frames or what about just keyframes and totally do away with the whole GOP structure? I read that I could do away with the B frames if I used a high bitrate. Is there even a GOP for AVI or is it only keyframes? I'm not worried about compression, I don't care if the finished file size is the same as the original AVI file size.
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  29. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    You were told that if you had too high of a bit rate on your encoded files for mpeg2 to be authored or played on an external player.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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  30. Originally Posted by Skiller View Post
    Originally Posted by Purple2112 View Post
    Does anyone here actually own TMPGEnc Master Works 7 https://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tvmw7.html
    and have experience using all the settings when encoding to mpeg-2 ?
    Probably nobody here does. Last time I used TMPGEnc (XPress) was in 2008 or so because I switched to other MPEG2 encoders. But it doesn't matter because most settings are shared among pretty much all MPEG2 encoders out there. So if you have questions about the settings, just ask.
    I have almost two decades of experience in MPEG2 encoding.
    Okay, great. My first question is about the (Rate Control Mode) Master Works 7 has an option that I haven't seen in other software......VBR (Constant Quality). Which one should give me better results the CBR(Constant Bitrate) @ 15Mbps Max or VBR(Constant Quality) @ 15Mbps Max and Quality @100Image
    [Attachment 64019 - Click to enlarge]


    Usually, the higher the bitrate, the better the picture, but what exactly does setting the Quality setting to 100 do when using the VBR(Constant Quality)? How does it differ from just using the Constant bitrate @ 15 Mbps. The Pegasy Help files are pretty much useless for descriptions of what each setting actually does.

    Thanks
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