8mm film to digital copying

[Camerart]

Hi,
I've just tried copying an 8mm film from projector/screen to digital camera, but there is a lot of flicker. (wagon wheel)
Is it possible to copy film this way?
Cheers, Camerart.

[Richard_G]

Yes it is but you need a camcorder where you can adjust the shutter speed due to the difference in fps between film (16 frames per second) and video (25 if PAL and 30 if NTSC).

[johnmeyer]

Everyone who has old film starts this way, but it turns out to be a really awful way to transfer film. Here are the reasons why, followed by my recommendations for better ways to go.

When you simply point a camcorder at the movie screen you run into problems for multiple reasons.

1. The camcorder and movie projector are running at different speeds. The camcorder takes video at 25 fps (PAL) or 30 fps (NTSC), but the projector is running at a much slower speed, anywhere between 15 and 24 fps.

2. The camcorder and movie projector are not synchronized. This means that in addition to having different frame rates, the portion of each frame that is captured by the camcorder will constantly be changing.

3. A projector has to close its shutter while the film is advanced to the next frame so you don't see the blur of the film moving. During the time the shutter is closed, there is zero light on the screen: pure black. Because of #1 and #2 above, the percentage of time in each video frame occupied by this pure black varies from frame to frame. In fact, because the video camera takes more frames per second, there will be some frames during which the projector shutter is not closed at all, resulting in a nice, bright capture, but this will be followed, within a frame or two, with a video frame which includes the entire time the shutter is closed. This exposure will be much darker.

This is what causes the flicker.

In addition, as you re-read #1-#3, you will begin to understand that you will also have video frames which contain part of one film frame, the entire time the shutter is closed, and then part of the next frame, resulting in a very soft frame because two adjacent frames are overlaid on top of each other.

The proper way to transfer film to video is to use a system which is "frame accurate". This means that each frame of video contains one frame of film, and does not contain any of when the shutter is closed, and never contains a blend of adjacent frames. If you were to lay the movie film on a flatbed scanner and then scan each individual frame, this would give you a frame accurate result. (This is not a practical transfer method, and I mention it only to make sure you understand what is meant by "frame accurate.") You then either play back this video at the native speed of the film (usually 16, 18, or 24 fps), something that all computers and most modern TVs can do, or you repeat fields or frames of video and then play back that result at the native speed of the TV display, typically either 25 fps (PAL) or 30 fps (NTSC). This older method is still needed if you make a DVD, which is hard-wired to 24, 25, or 30 fps, or if you intend to watch on a CRT TV set, something not done much any more.

If you must live with the significantly degraded result you have now, there is a script developed over at doom9.org which can "salvage" something out of the mess, but it is no substitute for doing the transfer correctly in the first place.

The power of AVISynth - salvaging "botched" transfers of old 8mm films to DVD

It is better to have the transfer done professionally. Most places charge between $0.30 and $0.50 per foot. A typical 7" can of film is 400 feet, if it is full (yes, it is expensive!). Places include Costco and Walmart (they send the film to YesVideo); LegacyBox; ScanCafe; and dozens of "ma and pa" transfer companies that you will find in any large city. If you want to do it yourself, you can purchased a transfer system from MovieStuff. Their systems used to cost under $1,000, but Roger Evans, the founder and owner, has made massive product improvements in the twenty years he's been running the place, and his new units have become very expensive. However, you can sometimes find used units on eBay for quite a bit less, and then you can sell them back, using eBay, usually for almost the same as what you paid.

[Alwyn]

John, there are quite a few second-hand variable-speed projectors on the market. Given they are much cheaper than the Moviestuff, what are your thoughts on them?

[johnmeyer]

John, there are quite a few second-hand variable-speed projectors on the market. Given they are much cheaper than the Moviestuff, what are your thoughts on them?

If you understood what I posted earlier, you should understand that variable speed projectors don't really solve any of the problems I described. Having said that, and having started my movie transfer work by doing what you are doing, and having had a variable speed projector, it is true that you can, to some degree, "tune" the transfer by adjusting the projector speed to minimize the flicker.

You should also pay attention to the camcorder's "shutter speed" because you want to make sure that it is set for something pretty slow. You most definitely do not want the camcorder to somehow get set for 1/250 of a second (or higher). You should start with1/60 (or 1/50 if you are in PAL land) and then try slower settings until you start to get blur from capturing adjacent film frames into one video frame.

[Camerart]

Hi,
The problem has been solved, but trying different and one (Lumix DC-TZ90) can record the film with little or no flicker.
Thanks, C.

[ConsumerDV]

It is better to have the transfer done professionally. Most places charge between $0.30 and $0.50 per foot. A typical 7" can of film is 400 feet, if it is full (yes, it is expensive!). Places include Costco and Walmart (they send the film to YesVideo); LegacyBox; ScanCafe; and dozens of "ma and pa" transfer companies that you will find in any large city.

Professionally, as in, doing it for a living, does not necessarily result in high quality. (Video: VWestlife's saga about LegacyBox).