Dropped frames regardless of Capture Card/Software/Codec

[ENunn]

I'm capturing stuff off my cable box and I'm trying to capture with zero dropped/inserted frames, however it's legitimately impossible most of the time. Sometimes it won't happen at all, but when it happens, it's completely random. I have tried using multiple capture cards (Elgato HD60S, Elgato Camlink, Avermedia C027, Avermedia Live Gamer 4k), using both Amarec and Virtualdub2, I have tried using multiple codecs (Utvideo, MagicYUV, x264vfw), tried with different settings with both programs and nothing has fixed the issue. Is this a Windows issue? Is there a fix? I'm at a loss of what to do. I always have nothing running in the backgroun except Reaper when I'm capturing yet I still drop frames. I'm capturing 1080i and 720p.

i7-8700K
Zotac RTX 2060
64GB RAM
2X WD Black 4tb (I'm recording to one of them)
Windows 11 Build 22000.527

[jwillis84]

windows is a multi-tasking operating system with pre-emptive interruption of tasks (aka 'programs') the device drivers are supposed to "interrupt" the interrupter to make sure the device buffers never over-run and loose incoming and outgoing communications, unfortunately that happens

it is why a DVD recorder has two CPU's, running two different operating systems; one for the RTOS (non-interruptable - real time operating system), one for the user interface.. and they share the hard drive, or dvd drive

the only alternative is to "out source" the capture to an external 'box' like a hardware compression device that only delivers the finished digitized product on demand when copying the capture to the PC. That is what a DV encoder does.. it delivers a compressed pre-captured product to the PC after its fully captured. that is what an SDI encoder does.. it delivers an uncompressed pre-captured product to the PC after its fully captured.

when a PC is in charge of every aspect of the capture.. if it looses focus; even for an instant.. it can loose data or sync with the capture process and you get problems

a time base corrector or a frame sync can "buffer" and give a PC "time" to catch up.. while its juggling lots of other balls.. but they are extra boxes

[sum_guy]

2X WD Black 4tb (I'm recording to one of them)

Personally, I only capture to an SSD drive using Hauppauge LIVE USB 2, Amarectv. 0 dropped/inserted frames, perfect audio sync, Windows 11 with everything turned off at boot (not safe mode), I have a WD Black 2 TB and everything goes out of whack when I try to capture to that drive. Virtualdub2 doesn't capture properly. I know, I just went through an extensive VHS-C capture project.

[ENunn]

the only alternative is to "out source" the capture to an external 'box' like a hardware compression device that only delivers the finished digitized product on demand when copying the capture to the PC. That is what a DV encoder does.. it delivers a compressed pre-captured product to the PC after its fully captured. that is what an SDI encoder does.. it delivers an uncompressed pre-captured product to the PC after its fully captured.

Is there anything that works with HDMI that records losslessly?

a time base corrector or a frame sync can "buffer" and give a PC "time" to catch up.. while its juggling lots of other balls.. but they are extra boxes

Not really useful for HDMI unfortunately.

Personally, I only capture to an SSD drive using Hauppauge LIVE USB 2, Amarectv. 0 dropped/inserted frames, perfect audio sync, Windows 11 with everything turned off at boot (not safe mode), I have a WD Black 2 TB and everything goes out of whack when I try to capture to that drive. Virtualdub2 doesn't capture properly. I know, I just went through an extensive VHS-C capture project.

I thought of getting an SSD but I don't want to heavily reduce the life of it.

Mine's a little bit different, I'm capping through HDMI and I'm not using any VHS tapes, I leave that to my XP machine. I'm not getting any sync issues in Amarec or Vdub thankfully but it's a random jolt of frames that get inserted.

[sum_guy]

Try capturing with OBS, I have a ROKU 3 connected to HDMI to USB dongle. At 1920x1080 and a high bit rate, lossless capture, it might be overwhelming your WD drive. My SSD capture drive is 5 years old now and shows no signs of dying (SMART). Depending on which WD Black you have, if for example it's a 5400 rpm drive, small cache, it might be overwhelmed.

[lordsmurf]

Windows 11 Build 22000.527

This is probably the problem. Each successive Win OS has gotten worse for video capture, including HD.

But it could be other hardware in the computer. RAM, HDD.

Personally, I only capture to an SSD drive using Hauppauge LIVE USB 2, Amarectv. 0 dropped/inserted frames, perfect audio sync, Windows 11 with everything turned off at boot (not safe mode), I have a WD Black 2 TB and everything goes out of whack when I try to capture to that drive. Virtualdub2 doesn't capture properly. I know, I just went through an extensive VHS-C capture project.

The fragmented write nature of SSD makes it an overall poor choice, it has more drops than HDD.

VirtualDub2 (usually) actually induces dropped frames, do not use for capture (*few exceptions).

Amarec works in Win10, but only with some cards. It's buggy, but decent when working. It took many many attempts to find hardware that cooperated with it, and testing on multiple OS. VirtualDub is better, but sometimes Win10 and/or Nvidia fight it.

[sum_guy]

I'm capturing with Win 11 Pro 22000.527, no issues. Amarec, OBS, Virtualdub 1.9, all capturing perfectly.

[ENunn]

Try capturing with OBS, I have a ROKU 3 connected to HDMI to USB dongle. At 1920x1080 and a high bit rate, lossless capture, it might be overwhelming your WD drive. My SSD capture drive is 5 years old now and shows no signs of dying (SMART). Depending on which WD Black you have, if for example it's a 5400 rpm drive, small cache, it might be overwhelmed.

I don't like using OBS for capture cards. OBS has an inherent frame drop issue that always happens regardless of capture card/settings/computer/resolution/framerate. It also doesn't support capping at 1080i which I do a lot. I have a 7200RPM WD Black, it should be more than enough for Amarec and Vdub.

Windows 11 Build 22000.527

This is probably the problem. Each successive Win OS has gotten worse for video capture, including HD.

But it could be other hardware in the computer. RAM, HDD.

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I dunno exactly what could be causing it though.

VirtualDub2 (usually) actually induces dropped frames, do not use for capture (*few exceptions).

I did try recording with Vdub 1.10 but I had the same issue with random dropped frames. I'd try some other software but Amarec and Virtualdub are the only software that actually works halfway decently. I can't get Avermedia Center 3D working for my C027, my Avermedia Live Gamer 4K doesn't work with capturing interlaced properly, I can't use the Elgato software for my HD60s and Cam Link because I can't capture 1080i as 1080i, OBS has it's issues. Very crappy situation.

I tried Vdub 1.9 and I still have problems. It's not as bad as Amarec but it still sucks.

Amarec works in Win10, but only with some cards. It's buggy, but decent when working. It took many many attempts to find hardware that cooperated with it, and testing on multiple OS. VirtualDub is better, but sometimes Win10 and/or Nvidia fight it.

It worked with everything I threw at it when I had Win10, but I still had the framedrop issue and I never found a fix.

I'm capturing with Win 11 Pro 22000.527, no issues. Amarec, OBS, Virtualdub 1.9, all capturing perfectly.

Guess I'm just unlucky :/

[sum_guy]

I don't like using OBS for capture cards. OBS has an inherent frame drop issue that always happens regardless of capture card/settings/computer/resolution/framerate.

Maybe on your hardware, not on mine. I can capture for 3+ hours without a single dropped frame. Sample below.

https://files.videohelp.com/u/84671/Game%20Change-00.20.06.000-00.25.03.000.mkv

[jwillis84]

you have provided two new additional pieces of information; indirectly

- using an HDMI connection to, your cable box

First you need to be aware that most HDMI content output by a cable box will have problems if HDCP is involved.

"Un" -intuitively, cable boxes may briefly or for short periods of time, pass content over HDMI to a capture device, like for commercials or unprotected content.. but more and more even the commercials are 'protected content' and the port shuts down. That is not a frame drop.. that is how HDCP was supposed to work.. and then didn't as it was abused by broadcasters and content producers.. there is nothing you can do about that. Some people try things like strippers.. but then you have to answer questions about whether you should be doing that.. I am not on either side of that fence. Simply; HDMI ports are pure hell at getting capture content signals to work reliably.

Cable and SAT boxes at one time had an alternative to HDMI for output.. called HDTV over YPrPb (analog).. some people called it RGB or the YUV cables.. those generally do not have as much trouble.. but they do not support as high a resolution or frame rate because those connections can not carry higher resolutions and frame rates as HDMI can. Some Cable and Sat boxes would even "downscale" higher resolution content.. so it could squeeze that content out those connections. You might even have a 480i S-Video connection you could capture from.

All that aside.

To answer your direct question; (Is there anything that works with HDMI that records losslessly?) yes there is, several things.

But.

The Copy protection enforced by HDCP over HDMI will restrict or shutdown the connection as soon as Copy protected content begins to play.. like right after a commercial and the program starts. You may get a few seconds of video and sound "before" the HDMI port shuts down.. but you will not get any warning.

I have seen some HDMI ports "flicker" between viewable content with sound and shutting down, then a few more seconds back and forth.. like an unstable connection.. its not unstable. The HDCP chips in the transmitter are "testing" whether the HDMI receiver has legitimate "keys" to allow the transmission.. it fails and it shuts down again. That it provides no visual queues or "message" that its shutting down.. is both a cost savings measure.. and an assumption of guilt.. if the connection gets shut down.. they don't want to help "pirates" to troubleshoot their gear.

I do not know your entire situation. And there are legitimate situations in which HDCP shut down is triggered inappropriately.. but even though technically HDMI is TDMS (and hence 'analog' with a digital flavor) the signal quality is usually so far above the common problems common to VCRs and unstable video tape captures.. its almost certain your problem is not 'frame drop' related.

As for what "works" with HDMI capture.. when.. you don't have an HDCP problem.

Several things.

AverMedia for one made some DVR (Digital Video Recorders) that captured direct to a laptop hard disk or SSD hard disk, like the ER310. they can only be bought used today and produce only Compressed h.264 content. ~$300 range used

AmerMedia also made a chunky brownie, HDMI capture DVR that captured direct to a PC or Mac over an SMB network connection and produced only Compressed h.264 or h.265 content, but only sold it outside North America (non US or Canada markets) but it can be bought online an imported into the US or Canada. ER330

Those were intended for Consumer video use.. and do not have any kind of TBC or Frame buffer.. because the nature of HDMI precludes that need.

Beyond that you can get some HDMI capture cards of broadcast signal quality, for quite a bit more from places like Blackmagic.

The Blackmagic Hyperdeck I and II devices which cost many thousands of dollars could capture to "special" certified SSD hard drives, Uncompressed content.. but that is in a whole other category.. and still won't capture "HDCP Copy protected" content. Notably the SSD hard drives had to be regulary "TRIMmed" in other equipment to keep their blocks freed up and organized for maximum capture speed.

Capturing Camera footage over HDMI to a portable hard drive as Uncompressed video, is a rather common thing.. but high quality lightly Compressed video is also becoming more acceptable.

Keep in mind (ALL) of these will not by-pass HDCP problems with Copy protection

Often people ask about Roku, they discontinued their last HDTV over YPrPb device some years ago.. and made sure the device could no longer be activated by a Roku account to help with by-passing HDCP.. so that avenue is closed.

AppleTV likewise.. had some loop holes that have also been discontinued.

HDMI keeps getting updated for higher and higher resolution and frame rate, and audio type content.. its been an arms race.. and the old 'strippers' approach no longer works. The HDMI adopters group has a rather large "BANNED" manufacturers list it publishes monthly as they keep updating the specification to eliminate work arounds.

I mention this to give you a lay of the land, its been a battle field for some time.. and beginners often waste a lot of time starting their campaigns.. only to be disappointed.

The only things that "sort of work" today, are to either use "old" gear with a stripper.. or to use a downscaler and then "jump" over to using YPrPb connections or S-Video and more traditional capture methods.

Its not very satisfying when you want Dolby Atmos audio with 4K video capture.. but that's the reality of the situation.

Most Churches I think go the route of using Downscalers.. or older Up/Down scalers.. which got made before everything got locked down.. mainly since they wanted to avoid any potential problems with HDCP compatibility between their equipment.

Some businesses Ingest video capture and upscale it then dump it out an SDI to Analog connection and Mix with Camera content to "appear" higher res and faster.. but those are hoops most people on this forum just wouldn't touch.

---

p.s. Also.. be aware if you have an alternative output connection, other than HDMI.. many Cable and Sat boxes will "disable" the alternative output connection "while" anything is connected to the HDMI port. Some people (would like to) leave it connected to a TV or Monitor to compare or troubleshoot while trying to capture from YPrPb or S-Video.. but Cable and Sat boxes deny that option.. which is kind of funny since "simultaneous" outputs used to be the normal behavior, and its actually difficult to toggle off that extra output.. they went the Extra mile anticipating they might be used for that.. and actually imposed the block on Analog Outputs while HDMI is being used and vice versa.

Even a TV left connected, but turned off will "Talk" to the Cable or Sat box HDMI port.. and keep the Analog ports shut off.. you have to physically "disconnect" the HDMI port and make sure they are the ports being used.. inside of menus on the Cable or Sat box.. they sure don't make it easy to use Analog ports.

[ENunn]

I don't like using OBS for capture cards. OBS has an inherent frame drop issue that always happens regardless of capture card/settings/computer/resolution/framerate.

Maybe on your hardware, not on mine. I can capture for 3+ hours without a single dropped frame. Sample below.

https://files.videohelp.com/u/84671/Game%20Change-00.20.06.000-00.25.03.000.mkv

Weird, I always get a duplicate frame every once in a while whenever I use a capture card with OBS. I've tried multiple capture cards and two PCs and I get the same problem with both of them.

"Un" -intuitively, cable boxes may briefly or for short periods of time, pass content over HDMI to a capture device, like for commercials or unprotected content.. but more and more even the commercials are 'protected content' and the port shuts down. That is not a frame drop.. that is how HDCP was supposed to work.. and then didn't as it was abused by broadcasters and content producers.. there is nothing you can do about that. Some people try things like strippers.. but then you have to answer questions about whether you should be doing that.. I am not on either side of that fence. Simply; HDMI ports are pure hell at getting capture content signals to work reliably.

The Copy protection enforced by HDCP over HDMI will restrict or shutdown the connection as soon as Copy protected content begins to play.. like right after a commercial and the program starts. You may get a few seconds of video and sound "before" the HDMI port shuts down.. but you will not get any warning.

The Copy protection enforced by HDCP over HDMI will restrict or shutdown the connection as soon as Copy protected content begins to play.. like right after a commercial and the program starts. You may get a few seconds of video and sound "before" the HDMI port shuts down.. but you will not get any warning.

And that's why I always use HDMI splitters and have been using them for several years now. HDCP is evil.

Cable and SAT boxes at one time had an alternative to HDMI for output.. called HDTV over YPrPb (analog).. some people called it RGB or the YUV cables.. those generally do not have as much trouble.. but they do not support as high a resolution or frame rate because those connections can not carry higher resolutions and frame rates as HDMI can. Some Cable and Sat boxes would even "downscale" higher resolution content.. so it could squeeze that content out those connections. You might even have a 480i S-Video connection you could capture from.

My cable box only has HDMI but even if it had component I would never cap through analog unless that was the only option.

I have seen some HDMI ports "flicker" between viewable content with sound and shutting down, then a few more seconds back and forth.. like an unstable connection.. its not unstable. The HDCP chips in the transmitter are "testing" whether the HDMI receiver has legitimate "keys" to allow the transmission.. it fails and it shuts down again. That it provides no visual queues or "message" that its shutting down.. is both a cost savings measure.. and an assumption of guilt.. if the connection gets shut down.. they don't want to help "pirates" to troubleshoot their gear.

I don't have to worry about that problem thankfully.

I do not know your entire situation. And there are legitimate situations in which HDCP shut down is triggered inappropriately.. but even though technically HDMI is TDMS (and hence 'analog' with a digital flavor) the signal quality is usually so far above the common problems common to VCRs and unstable video tape captures.. its almost certain your problem is not 'frame drop' related.

AverMedia for one made some DVR (Digital Video Recorders) that captured direct to a laptop hard disk or SSD hard disk, like the ER310. they can only be bought used today and produce only Compressed h.264 content. ~$300 range used

AmerMedia also made a chunky brownie, HDMI capture DVR that captured direct to a PC or Mac over an SMB network connection and produced only Compressed h.264 or h.265 content, but only sold it outside North America (non US or Canada markets) but it can be bought online an imported into the US or Canada. ER330

I'll keep an eye out.

Beyond that you can get some HDMI capture cards of broadcast signal quality, for quite a bit more from places like Blackmagic.

The Blackmagic Hyperdeck I and II devices which cost many thousands of dollars could capture to "special" certified SSD hard drives, Uncompressed content.. but that is in a whole other category.. and still won't capture "HDCP Copy protected" content. Notably the SSD hard drives had to be regulary "TRIMmed" in other equipment to keep their blocks freed up and organized for maximum capture speed.

I heard BM was pretty good, but is there an upgrade to those when all my other capture cards already send an uncompressed signal from the get go?

Capturing Camera footage over HDMI to a portable hard drive as Uncompressed video, is a rather common thing.. but high quality lightly Compressed video is also becoming more acceptable.

I got my Elgato Cam Link 4K for that.

HDMI keeps getting updated for higher and higher resolution and frame rate, and audio type content.. its been an arms race.. and the old 'strippers' approach no longer works. The HDMI adopters group has a rather large "BANNED" manufacturers list it publishes monthly as they keep updating the specification to eliminate work arounds.

I mention this to give you a lay of the land, its been a battle field for some time.. and beginners often waste a lot of time starting their campaigns.. only to be disappointed.

Yeah I definitely understand, what a big can of worms.

Its not very satisfying when you want Dolby Atmos audio with 4K video capture.. but that's the reality of the situation.

Thankfully my splitter can record 4k60 HDR off my Roku for the one case I had to use it for. Doubt it works with Dolby Atmos but I don't think any capture card supports it anyways.

[sum_guy]

my splitter can record 4k60 HDR

What, exactly, is the splitter you have?

[hdfills]

i had this issue and after capturing too a ssd hard drive , all issues are gone

[dellsam34]

To put an end to all your problems get a BlackMagic HDMI capture card, use the MediaExpress capture app contained in Desktop software, a PCI is prefered and cheaper but USB 3.x ones work well but little pricy. Never use USB 2.0 for this task, It is for SD but can barely do SD lossless:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393968863203?epid=25028874521&hash=item5bba5fc7e3:g:dzkAAOSwe81iH939

[jwillis84]

you have provided, more information

- I always use HDMI splitters

so your not actually performing analog capture.

That eliminates 99% of the topics to discuss, except to say; this has nothing to do with Time Base Correction or Frame Synchronization.

The TDMS signal type is already synchronized and has no time base errors.. in fact its almost certain its "Progressive" not "Interlaced".. so its much more like game capture than "analog capture"

The Cable box is technically a DVR.. Digitial Video Recorder.. so your trying to offload an encrypted drives contents by circumventing the encryption.

That's how it was designed.. to prevent that.. and picking an HDMI recorder to work against that.. even with a "Stripper" is at odds.. its not a signal problem.

I can say "Strippers" are well know to have very poor cooling abilities.. most people take them apart and put forced air fans on them.. or at the very least heat sinks with fans like retro GPU coolers. Using Strippers is a graduating skill level.. Level 1 people "think" the problem is poor construction but whail about how hot they get. Level 2 people whail about how often they fail. Level 3 people start to take them apart or explore game capture hdmi devices.. you sound like your approaching Level 3

Game capture HDMI devices have no TBC or Frame syncs for a reason too.. it adds nothing when capturing an HDMI signal.. it adds "blur" and "blips" to the HDMI capture and eventually de-synchronizes audio and video.. lip sync. I am not defending the choice to "disable" TBC and Frame Sync in the ADV7842 or likewise other designs.. but there is a reason. TBC and Frame sync is just not right for HDMI capture.

Blackmagic as mentioned is a current.. and more reliable method for HDMI capture .. at a relatively cheap cost. But they do not support audio Preview.. which people expect from using VCRs or DVRs.. its just assumed.

Blackmagic uses their combo Drivers and Application installer "Desktop Video Suite" to install device drivers and Media Express.. but also a generic WDM filter for capture using older software and third party DirectShow based applications. Noel Danjou's AMCap works well with the Blackmagic WDM device driver. So does OBS and Cyberlink PowerDirector.. if your looking for more traditional tools. SONY Vegas / Magix Vegas also supports WDM capture using the old Vidcap 6.0 treating it "as if" it was DV video capture over Firewire.. but instead uses WDM to capture the AVI natively.

The most important thing about Blackmagic today is that they keep updating the signed device drivers with new PKI Certificates.. so newer and newer versions of operating systems like Windows or MacOS do not block them as malware when installing.

---

p.s. I guess its worth mentioning. Blackmagic Designs also makes Media Express for MacOS.. which does not have the Directshow infrastructure of Windows. Its kind of stand alone.. but works well for Thunderbolt or "other" connection types on a Mac for SDI and HDMI audio/video capture on modern Macs. There are "other" vendors that make SDI / HDMI capture devices.. like Magewell.. but they cost about x5 times more for entry level capture devices.. and they are mostly PCI express.

[dellsam34]

Depends on what cable box, Old school QAM tuner are interlaced at 480i/1080i but progressive at 720p, If the cable box is Ethernet or fiber with online contents then most of the contents should be progressive.

[lordsmurf]

To put an end to all your problems get a BlackMagic HDMI capture card, use the MediaExpress capture app

Just to clarify, for HD sources, like the HD cable box. BM carsd do HD fine.
It's SD those are terrible at (VHS, etc), all sorts of issues.

[ENunn]

my splitter can record 4k60 HDR

What, exactly, is the splitter you have?

I bought this off of Aliexpress a long time ago. It allows me to record 4k60 HDR off my Roku through my Avermedia Live Gamer 4K. It's fantastic.



For my cable box however,, I found that the signal kept dropping out when I had it directly plugged it into the splitter. I've since gotten a newer box, so I'm not sure if that still happens, so just incase, I have the box plugged into my old ViewHD splitter that I got off Amazon a long time ago. Works perfectly. No dropouts, no issues.

i had this issue and after capturing too a ssd hard drive , all issues are gone

Honestly that wouldn't be a bad idea, but I'm concerned about the lifespan. I'll be recording fairly often.

To put an end to all your problems get a BlackMagic HDMI capture card, use the MediaExpress capture app contained in Desktop software

But can it record losslessly? I prefer recording lossless and compressing later.

Never use USB 2.0 for this task, It is for SD but can barely do SD lossless

Of course, I'm not looking for USB 2 cards anyways.

The Cable box is technically a DVR.. Digitial Video Recorder.. so your trying to offload an encrypted drives contents by circumventing the encryption.

That's how it was designed.. to prevent that.. and picking an HDMI recorder to work against that.. even with a "Stripper" is at odds.. its not a signal problem.

It's not an issue with the box, or the signal, or the capture card, or the splitter. It's stripping out HDCP. If it didn't the capture card wouldn't have displayed anything at all. The signal isn't dropping out or being degraded, it's displaying perfectly fine. Again, the issue is with duplicate frames popping up randomly during capture. When I'm not capturing, the image is silky smooth with no dropouts. It's not an issue with the splitter.

I can say "Strippers" are well know to have very poor cooling abilities.. most people take them apart and put forced air fans on them.. or at the very least heat sinks with fans like retro GPU coolers. Using Strippers is a graduating skill level.. Level 1 people "think" the problem is poor construction but whail about how hot they get. Level 2 people whail about how often they fail. Level 3 people start to take them apart or explore game capture hdmi devices.. you sound like your approaching Level 3

Not really, I've had these cards for years except the Avermedia C027 which I just bought a week ago. The splitters I've used works with everything I throw at it, including my PS3. Cooling issues are not a concern for me. No matter how hot they get, the signal is still there and not dropping out.

Game capture HDMI devices have no TBC or Frame syncs for a reason too.. it adds nothing when capturing an HDMI signal.. it adds "blur" and "blips" to the HDMI capture and eventually de-synchronizes audio and video.. lip sync. I am not defending the choice to "disable" TBC and Frame Sync in the ADV7842 or likewise other designs.. but there is a reason. TBC and Frame sync is just not right for HDMI capture.

The capture cards I have do not have any blurring. Don't know about the blips, but it might just be Windows being Windows.

Noel Danjou's AMCap works well with the Blackmagic WDM device driver.

I considered trying AMCap but it's paid. It's probably worth it though :P

Depends on what cable box, Old school QAM tuner are interlaced at 480i/1080i but progressive at 720p, If the cable box is Ethernet or fiber with online contents then most of the contents should be progressive.

Yep, and that's what my box does. It does support 1080p but I prefer capturing at native resolution if I can help it, plus I'll never use the streaming features of it anyways, I'd use my Roku for that. Only downside is that my box can't output 480i because *insert poor excuse Spectrum will probably say here*. My old box did.

Also, incase anyone mentions it, if it was possible for me to record the original bitstream, I would do it in a heartbeat. My old box had a firewire output which allowed me to record channels that weren't copy protected, however with the new Spectrum DVR that's long gone sadly.

[dellsam34]

Just to clarify, for HD sources, like the HD cable box. BM carsd do HD fine.
It's SD those are terrible at (VHS, etc), all sorts of issues.

The OP is capturing via HDMI from a cable box, There could be some 480i streams but they are already digital, HDMI is the only port you can extract a video from a proprietary cable box. Not like back in the day when the FCC mandated the avaibility of a firewire port on every cable box so consumers could use a computer or a D-VHS deck to stream the programs they paid for to get recorded to HDD or D-VHS tape losslessly, Offcourse the encrypted contents has to passthrough the cable box itself for viewing to strip the encryption but at least it worked, That rule was overturned 2 decades ago, thanks to corrupted politicians.

But can it record losslessly? I prefer recording lossless and compressing later.

Yes, 10 bit RGB or YUV up to 4:4:4 the modern ones, The one I linked is HD but 10bit 4:2:2 is already overkill for cable.

[jwillis84]

- It allows me to record 4k60 HDR off my Roku through my Avermedia Live Gamer 4K.

That is quite a list of unusual exceptions.

First it appears to be an all plastic box, it really should have a lot of problems shedding heat.

The next is that permits 4K stripping, if true this would be the first stripper that can do that I have heard about.

Avermedia Live Gamer 4K, is known for protecting their status quite aggressively - if they did not they would not be in business today.

I do not have this gear.. so I can't say its performing as expected or not.

But that your asking for a solution to make this work.. suggests.. you may not be able to get it to work.

I'm drawn back to whether your getting "intermittent" connections that then get shut down once the equipment realizes its attempting to complete an unprotected connection.

I stress.. that a "few seconds" even up to a minute.. are common behavior.. and flickering back on to a test connection is common but then it should shut off the video connection. You should be able to use that setup to capture "unprotected" video.. but as soon as it hits a commercial or content with the HDCP protection signal it should start shutting down.. that is not a frame drop.. its correct and proper behavior.

The best way to know.. is to have "known" unprotected content where you have no problem.. and "known" protected content where you have the same problems.. additional "known" unprotected or protected content behaving the same way as before will confirm the problem.

The hardest thing for me to believe.. is that there is even one 4K splitter that does work. It "should" work with unprotected content.. but not with HDCP protected content. The signal changes during a broadcast.. so you can't be sure an entire recording is of one type (protected or unprotected) in a single recording.

An example of "Unprotected Content" would be video that was captured from a Camcorder with an HDMI output.

An example of "Protected Content" would be just about any movie captured from a cable or streaming provider.

A TBC or Frame Synchronizer.. will not "strip" HDCP signals.. they are embedded at two points in the digital signal.. I don't know the entire interlocking story.. but you would have to remove some of it in the VANC and some of it intertwined in the scanlines.. not the VBI as macrovision used to be.. its a very difficult thing to do. I have never tried.. I was interested in "How" it was done.. but not interested in breaking the HDCP protection.

I will say however. I have heard of content providers leaving the first half of a movie completely free and clear.. and turning it on in the second half.. which seems particularly vicious.. but they feel justified.. so I won't get into the politics of that.

The more they can get illegitimate captures to waste their time "solving the problem" is seen as a win for them.

[ENunn]

First it appears to be an all plastic box, it really should have a lot of problems shedding heat.

Rubberized plastic. Build quality's quite cheap and it's a tad warm, but it gets the job done.

The next is that permits 4K stripping, if true this would be the first stripper that can do that I have heard about. 4K requires a version of HDMI beyond that when the HDMI adopters group cracked down and gave out the keys to permit a solid connection before testing.

I thought it was impossible too. A long time ago I was looking up an article on stripping HDCP, even though I already had a splitter that stripped it. Despite me having basically no use of using anything that had HDCP 2.2, I wanted to see if it was possible to strip it. Someone in the comments linked the splitter and they said it worked for them, and they weren't lying.


[Attachment 63703 - Click to enlarge]



Example recording attached.

Avermedia Live Gamer 4K, is known for protecting their status quite aggressively - if they did not they would not be in business today.

Yeah they basically beg people not to use splitters but no one listens to them lol

I'm drawn back to whether your getting "intermittent" connections that then get shut down once the equipment realizes its attempting to complete an unprotected connection.

I stress.. that a "few seconds" even up to a minute.. are common behavior.. and flickering back on to a test connection is common but then it should shut off the video connection. You should be able to use that setup to capture "unprotected" video.. but as soon as it hits a commercial or content with the HDCP protection signal it should start shutting down.. that is not a frame drop.. its correct and proper behavior.

It's not shutting off, I also have it connected to my TV, and by then HDCP has already been stripped. The TV doesn't blackout, the capture card doesn't blackout, it's just a chunk of inserted frames during capture with Amarec and Vdub.

The best way to know.. is to have "known" unprotected content where you have no problem.. and "known" protected content where you have the same problems.. additional "known" unprotected or protected content behaving the same way as before will confirm the problem.

I've been using splitters for years, going back to when I used a Hauppauge HD PVR 2 in 2016/17, even with unprotected content it would never drop the signal. Same applies today.

The hardest thing for me to believe.. is that there is even one 4K splitter that does work. Is "should" work with unprotected content.. but not with HDCP protected content. The signal changes during a broadcast.. so you can't be sure an entire recording is of one type (protected or unprotected) in a single recording.

My box would tell me if a display was hooked up that doesn't support HDCP, then black out after a few seconds.

[jwillis84]

- The TV doesn't blackout, the capture card doesn't blackout, it's just a chunk of inserted frames during capture with Amarec and Vdub.

I'm still having trouble understanding the exact problem your having.

How do you come to the conclusion its extra inserted or dropped frames?

"Assuming" it is stripping.. and just entertaining that possibility.

The Avermedia Live Gamer 4K comes in a couple different "versions" PCIexpress or USB and "generation".

Being more precise with the exact GC573 or GC513 model number would be helpful.

Also which firmware version is being used, it should be visible in the Setup menu.

"Guessing" its the PCIexpress version, you have several potential problems right away.. fragmented or "iron rust" hard disk.. PMR versus SHR hard disk.. and then wattage or reliability of your power supply.

For 4K capture your going to need a very very fast storage system.. larger hard disks are the prime enemy.

To be even remotely possible you almost have to use stripped SSDs to capture the video.. everything that worked up until now would be relying on the DDR RAM buffers in memory to catch the data feed and struggle to put them on disk before over flowing.

Blackmagic Design includes a 4K speed disk test tool to help troubleshoot problems like this.. I think you can download the Desktop Video suite of tools and install it.. or only extract the speed disk tool and test whether it is possible to keep up with the data stream.

Duplicate inserted frames however sound like (a) Progressive and (b) more likely a problem with the firmware.

I don't know how far you want to pursue this, but one way is to throw money at the problem.. get a BMD HDMI capture card.. then install the Desktop Video suite, run the test and buy multiple smaller SSDs.. and capture.. then copy those Huge files over to slower larger hard disks. - This could get expensive really really fast.

Collaterally.. getting that data "off" slower "iron rust" hard drives fast enough to playback.. will be a problem.. unless you compress or convert it to something like h.264 or h.265 .. but your already in gamer capture territory.. so I'm assuming your not really capturing in 4K but some compressed form of 4K.. and want to step up to Uncompressed.

I'm also vaguely recalling AverMedia only captures in some form of Compressed data stream.. are you sure its Uncompressed.. or trying to Decompress at the same time its Compressing to provide a Preview? Those chips are really not designed for 4:2:2 Uncompressed capture.. they are a little weak.. and would probably spontaneously combust if they tried. So I'm all kinds of confused.. without digging into the details.

[ENunn]

How do you come to the conclusion its extra inserted or dropped frames.

Amarec tells me if the frames are inserts or drops. I have an example video attached which shows the problem.

(+)0 means zero inserted frames. (-)0 means zero dropped frames. Technically, I'm not getting dropped frames, but inserted/duplicate frames, but I always count that as dropped.

The Avermedia Live Gamer 4K comes in a couple different "versions" PCIexpress or USB and "generation".

Being more precise with the exact GC573 or GC513 model number would be helpful.

I have a GC573. The GC513 is the Live Gamer Portable 2 Plus.

I am NOT using this to capture off my cable box. It doesn't handle interlaced resolutions well, can't capture interlaced as interlaced. I use the Avermedia C027 for that.

Also which firmware version is being used, it should be visible in the Setup menu.

For the GC573, the latest version.

"Guessing" its the PCIexpress version, you have several potential problems right away.. fragmented or "iron rust" hard disk.. PMR versus SHR hard disk.. and then wattage or reliability of your power supply.

For 4K capture your going to need a very very fast storage system.. larger hard disks are the prime enemy.

To be even remotely possible you almost have to use stripped SSDs to capture the video.. everything that worked up until now would be relying on the DDR RAM buffers in memory to catch the data feed and struggle to put them on disk before over flowing.

Blackmagic Design includes a 4K speed disk test tool to help troubleshoot problems like this.. I think you can download the Desktop Video suite of tools and install it.. or only extract the speed disk tool and test whether it is possible to keep up with the data stream.

I don't know how far you want to pursue this, but one way is to throw money at the problem.. get a BMD HDMI capture card.. then install the Desktop Video suite, run the test and buy multiple smaller SSDs.. and capture.. then copy those Huge files over to slower larger hard disks. - This could get expensive really really fast.

I can capture 4k video just fine. I do it all the time in OBS to record PC games.

However, forget capturing at 4k. I have zero issues recording anything through my GC573 in RECentral. My problem is that I'm getting inserts/drops ONLY when I capture with Amarec and Virtualdub regardless of what capture card I use (both USB or PCI), what hard drive I record to, what settings I use, what resolution I set, what codec I use, I still get them.

I'll definitely consider getting an SSD for recording though.

Duplicate inserted frames however sound like (a) Progressive and (b) more likely a problem with the firmware.

Technically it's capturing a 30p image when I capture in 1080i, yeah? I just deinterlace it in post or I tell my video player to deinterlace it. The dup frame issue, it happens with all my capture cards, but again only in Amarec and Vdub. If I use software made for the cards (except Avermedia Center 3D for my C027 because it doesn't detect my card for some reason), they have no issues. However, they all have their limitations (limited interlace support depending on the card, can't do lossless, etc.)

Collaterally.. getting that data "off" slower "iron rust" hard drives fast enough to playback.. will be a problem.. unless you compress or convert it to something like h.264 or h.265 .. but your already in gamer capture territory.. so I'm assuming your not really capturing in 4K but some compressed form of 4K.. and want to step up to Uncompressed.

Nah, whenever I record 4k with stuff like OBS and Recentral, I always go with either HEVC or H264. Recording 4k uncompressed/losslessly is insane, probably impossible for me even if I wanted to do it. My hard drive isn't slow. It's a beefy 4TB WD Black. Back then, I had issues recording anything with OBS when I had a crappy Seagate Barracuda, and all that was fixed when I upgraded to my WD Black.

I'm also vaguely recalling AverMedia only captures in some form of Compressed data stream.. are you sure its Uncompressed.. or trying to Decompress at the same time its Compressing to provide a Preview? Those chips are really not designed for 4:2:2 Uncompressed capture.. they are a little weak.. and would probably spontaneously combust if they tried. So I'm all kinds of confused.. without digging into the details.

Definitely uncompressed 4:2:2 on the C027. GC573 is also uncompressed 4:4:4, although I can only get 4:4:4 working with certain resolutions.

Sorry for any confusion.

[jwillis84]

your kind of adding a lot of information, and have split the types of captures your referring too

The C027 Dark Crystal "Combo" card is a different animal, its as you say an Analog to Digital card.

The Avermedia GC573 is an HDMI game capture card

I do see how the splitter is working now.. its Progressive at 30 fps.. at HDMI 1.3 and HDCP 1.2 or lower... so it just nudges under the cut off point when splitters stopped working due to policy changes.

I don't think I can help you in any meaning full way.

You seem to be circling the capture software you want to use, versus what seems to be working.

VirtualDub (avery lee) and Amarec (japan) are really very old and depend on uncompressed WDM support... VirtualDub 1.9.11 is the only version (end version) most people refer to.. the branched code bases for VirtualMod and others are kind of unstable and serve specialized purposes for special boutique situations

RECentral is Avermedias customized tool for interfacing with their capture devices.. it uses tricks that are not WDM standard.. so its always going to be able to do more than you can with a generic capture tool like VDUB.

-- i'll try one more time.. VDUB has some "behavior" settings in its advanced menus for "what to do when a Frame drop is detected, or audio video sync is out of sync".. it can "duplicate the most recent frame" "drop frame" or "drop audio samples", "abort capture" or "do nothing" to try to automatically re-synchronize the capture. I have never had good luck messing with these settings. In truth VDUB is having trouble keeping up with the capture and its trying to compensate for lossed data. You can try pre-allocating disk space.. or increasing memory buffers.. but its just very old.. you can't overcome hardware issues with software.

VirtualDub was a Directshow/DirectX 9.0c dependent program, those were written for Windows XP mostly in 32 bit versions. When Windows Vista came along DirectX was updated to version 10.0 and got 32 bit and 64 bit versions.. to keep using the older 32 bit versions.. it had to emulate 32 bit calls from 64 bit calls.. that took extra time. VDUB 1.9.11 also comes in 64 bit versions.. you can try that.

When Windows 7 came out DirectX got updated to version 11.. each time DirectX gets updated.. things can get worse supporting VDUB.. some functions work differently or worse due to re-implementation.. the further you get from Windows XP.. the worse VDUB performance (if it works) will get.

OBS came out "after" Windows Vista, it will not work on Windows XP and at a bare minimum requires DirectX 10.. it also keeps getting updated.. unlike VDUB which is no longer developed. It also comes in 32 bit versions or 64 bit versions. So its no wonder you get better performance with OBS.. though its really intended for streaming.. and capturing to hard disk.. is a secondary and difficult thing to do well. OBS can also take advantage of the GPU to help with compression and decompression.. and sort of does Preview better.. but its Achilles heel is using the old WDM interface.

There are so many variables.. and you've brought up so many additional bits of information.. I've lost track of what your focus is on.. I guess your still learning and trying different things and looking for some orientation.

i don't think i'm the right one to help you

[dellsam34]

Me too I don't use Vdub for any type of capturing, Vdub is not the right tool for lossless HD, it even struggles with lossless SD, For this HD task just use whatever capture software supplied with your HDMI capture device. Or as I mentioned above just get a BM PCIe card and use MediaExpress.

[lordsmurf]

VirtualDub is not what you want to capture HD.
SD only.