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  1. Hello, sometimes when I want to encode a relatively old bluray that has 2 family of versions (one family of versions for EU countries at 24 or 25 FPS, and one version for USA/JAP at 23.9 PFS) I have to choose between:
    - changing the audio of the EU version and muxing it with the USA video
    OR
    - using directly the EU bluray without any FPS conversion

    but I don't know how the EU version is created. I read in a doom9 thread that most of the time both videos (of the EU and USA BD) have the same number of total frames, but the speed changes. If I'm not wrong, I suppose the method used to create the EU version from the USA version is equivalent to changing the timestamp of frames, but in this case it should be better to speed up/down the audio instead of the video. So in such situations I should prefer to speed up/down the EU audio and use the USA video instead of keeping the "speeded" EU bluray.

    Is it true that the EU versions of Bluray (that have a counterpart USA Bluray with different FPS) are created in this way? If not, how are they created?
    If sometimes this method is used, how can I know what bluray is created in this way and what not?
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  2. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    **
    If the production was originally shot intended primarily for film release, it will have been shot at 24fps, regardless, because ALL normal theaters (other than HFPS48 and ToddAO30 specialty presentations, and maybe a few IMAXes) show only at 24FPS. Then you will have to do a litttle digging to see what the distribution company did to get it to the state it is in on the Bluray or DVD.
    The most common for subsequent release to PAL-lands is:
    24FPS-->25FPS via speedup (4%), so only change in duration of frames, and then accompanying speedup of the audio (likely with pitch correction, but not always). But it could also be left at 24FPS directly when on BD.

    If the production was shot intending video & consumer media release, it could have been 24, 23.976, or 25 or 29.97 or 30, etc. Then you will have to do a LOT of digging, because it would likely be more complicated.

    If you have a (PAL) BD that is 25FPS, and you know (via IMDB, etc) that the original production was 24, and you want to combine it with elements taken from NTSC (e.g. different language audio), you would have to revert the 25-->24 via slowdown, with accompanying slowdown of the audio (with pitch correction if appropriate). The NTSC audio elements should need either NO adjustment, or a 0.1% speedup adjustment, depending on if they were on a Bluray at 24FPS or at 23.976FPS.
    ...OR you could leave the PAL BD video as is (sped up) and then speed up the NTSC audio (4% + optionally 0.1%) to match. The choice depends on whether you personally LIKE the sped up motion or not. If you are a purist, originalist, you would do the former, as that is closer to the state of the original assets and their motion (this all assumes 24FPS production).

    In NTSC-land, productions rarely shoot directly at 23.976, unless they are direct-to-video with BD and DVD releases (not necessary for purely streaming). Most "cinema-intended" NTSC-land productions shoot at 24 and then slow down to 23.976 for editing, and then sometimes re-conform back to 24, but sometimes they stay at 23.976 (with subsequent Telecine to 29.97 when necessary, e.g. DVD, broadcast). Most "video-intended" productions in NTSC-land shoot at 29.97 or 30FPS or 59.94/60FPS.

    Regardless, you will have to find out via online sources what methods were used in the production, editing, and distribution. There is no single set of rules.

    I thought I had gone over that before...


    Scott

    (** gonna use the terms NTSC and PAL throughout, even though they don't apply exactly the same way with HD and UHD material)
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 25th Feb 2022 at 15:39.
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  3. Very few EU movies are released at 25fps on Blu-ray - movies in both Europe and the US are usually released at 23.976fps, with some European movie transfers made at 24.000fps. Blu-ray can carry 1080p23.976 and 1080p24.000 and both US and European HDTVs handle these near-identical formats fine. In video terms US and EU releases of mainstream movies are identical in 'on disc' video terms.

    The only major exception to this rule is for European movies shot for European TV, and TV shows, which are usually shot at 25fps. However as Blu-ray doesn't support 1080p25 (i.e. 1080 progressive at 25fps), they can't be released as 1080p25 encodes. Instead the nearest compatible format supported by Blu-ray is interlaced 1080i25 (sometimes known as 1080/50i) which will take the 1080p frame and split it into two 540 line interlaced fields. These discs will still 'look' 1080p - but the signal that is carrying them is interlaced. These discs are not usually that easy to play on US players and TVs. (Ignoring regional restrictions - this is just a fact of life - US gear doesn't like 50Hz video, but European gear is fine with 24/50/60)

    Any major movie release in the EU/UK won't be 25/50 on Blu-ray - it will be 23.976, same as the US.

    (This is VERY different to the situation with DVDs and Broadcast TV where 23.976fps movies are sped up to 25fps in Europe and then carried as 576i25 aka 576/50i for DVD and SDTV, and 1080i25 aka 1080/50i for HDTV )
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  4. Originally Posted by nogginvid View Post
    Blu-ray can carry 1080p23.976 and 1080p24.000 and both US and European HDTVs handle these near-identical formats fine.
    How does a regular home tv in US show 24.000 fps? Or anywhere else?
    I have thought that those are locked to "1/1001"-speeds?
    Do they just show them at 23.976 fps?

    Do they still make different models for US and Europe and US models have features stripped down?
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  5. I'm amazed; this is happening like "right now", not in the past history or far future:
    https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1613548043
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  6. Member
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    Originally Posted by toke View Post
    Originally Posted by nogginvid View Post
    Blu-ray can carry 1080p23.976 and 1080p24.000 and both US and European HDTVs handle these near-identical formats fine.
    How does a regular home tv in US show 24.000 fps? Or anywhere else?
    I have thought that those are locked to "1/1001"-speeds?
    Do they just show them at 23.976 fps?

    Do they still make different models for US and Europe and US models have features stripped down?
    Yes, they still make different models for the US and Europe. For one thing, the TVs are equipped with tuners that support different broadcast systems and decoders for different broadcast subtitling/closed captioning systems.

    The majority of the panels made for US TVs have a 60 Hz refresh rate. A few recent high-end TVs have panels with a 120 Hz refresh rate to support video games that can supply input at 120Hz. However, newer US TVs often accept HDMI input at "PAL" refresh rates. The 2015 Samsung that I tend to use supports 1080p at 24 Hz/ 25 Hz / 30 Hz / 50Hz / 60 Hz plus 1080i and 720p resolutions at 50Hz / 60 Hz.
    Ignore list: hello_hello, tried, TechLord, Snoopy329
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  7. Originally Posted by toke View Post
    Originally Posted by nogginvid View Post
    Blu-ray can carry 1080p23.976 and 1080p24.000 and both US and European HDTVs handle these near-identical formats fine.
    How does a regular home tv in US show 24.000 fps? Or anywhere else?
    I have thought that those are locked to "1/1001"-speeds?
    Do they just show them at 23.976 fps?
    Some blu-rays made for the US market are 24.0fps and I've never heard of any problem. The major studios still release everything at 24/1.001. Maybe they know something or maybe they're just being cautious.
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  8. Sometimes an old movie, which had been definitely shot on film, is released on BD at 25fps. Quite often these are just lazy DVD upscales. True remasters are usually 24.00 when released in regions B and C.

    As for panels, TVs that switch to 72 Hz refresh rate existed fifteen years ago and maybe even earlier. They call it "film mode" or "movie mode", which is tied to deinterlacer that can correctly remove the pulldown. Pioneer was one of the brands that was big on this (I wish I got the Kuro). 120 Hz panels are suitable for both "video" and "film" content in NTSC land even with a crappy deinterlacer. To include 50 Hz content into the mix the rate should be increased to 300 Hz, and I think this is where the development is headed.
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  9. Originally Posted by toke View Post
    Originally Posted by nogginvid View Post
    Blu-ray can carry 1080p23.976 and 1080p24.000 and both US and European HDTVs handle these near-identical formats fine.
    How does a regular home tv in US show 24.000 fps? Or anywhere else?
    I have thought that those are locked to "1/1001"-speeds?
    Do they just show them at 23.976 fps?

    Do they still make different models for US and Europe and US models have features stripped down?
    The two frame rates are so similar that the HDMI spec allows them to use the same HDMI 'Mode' and TV's processing and panels will lock to the HDMI input frame rate and pixel clock they receive, as the difference is so small. The panels aren't usually locked to a local clock.
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  10. Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    Sometimes an old movie, which had been definitely shot on film, is released on BD at 25fps. Quite often these are just lazy DVD upscales. True remasters are usually 24.00 when released in regions B and C.

    As for panels, TVs that switch to 72 Hz refresh rate existed fifteen years ago and maybe even earlier. They call it "film mode" or "movie mode", which is tied to deinterlacer that can correctly remove the pulldown. Pioneer was one of the brands that was big on this (I wish I got the Kuro). 120 Hz panels are suitable for both "video" and "film" content in NTSC land even with a crappy deinterlacer. To include 50 Hz content into the mix the rate should be increased to 300 Hz, and I think this is where the development is headed.
    Should point out that there is no need for 300Hz for panels to cope with both 50 and 60Hz refresh rates.

    For many years there have been panels that can cope with multiple refresh rates. My second LCD HDTV bought in the UK in the mid-00s happily coped with 23.976/24Hz, 50Hz and 59.94/60Hz inputs and displayed them correctly (my first only coped with 50Hz and 59.94/60Hz). The panel was able to be refreshed at 48Hz (with 2:2), 50Hz and 60Hz. Because it had a constant backlight, the 48Hz refresh didn't flicker in the same way it would have with emissive displays like plasmas (which had to use 72Hz), or CRTs (and now OLEDs).

    Current European HDTVs with "120Hz" panels simply drop to 100Hz for 50Hz/25Hz sources.

    My MacBook Pro 16" does the same - I can manually select between 48/50/60Hz refresh rates (and 1000/1001 variants) and the panel will then refresh at those rates - which is near-vital for those of us who edit 50Hz video on our laptops.
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  11. Originally Posted by nogginvid View Post
    Should point out that there is no need for 300Hz for panels to cope with both 50 and 60Hz refresh rates.
    I meant, for content that mixes 50 Hz and 60 Hz rates, which is not possible presently. I don't think that constant switching of panel refresh rate will work. In related news, ASUS just released a 500 Hz gaming monitor.
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  12. Originally Posted by ConsumerDV View Post
    Originally Posted by nogginvid View Post
    Should point out that there is no need for 300Hz for panels to cope with both 50 and 60Hz refresh rates.
    I meant, for content that mixes 50 Hz and 60 Hz rates, which is not possible presently. I don't think that constant switching of panel refresh rate will work. In related news, ASUS just released a 500 Hz gaming monitor.
    Ah - mixed 50/60Hz format content isn't 'a thing' anywhere that I'm aware of. I'm not aware of any mainstream editing platform that would support it (timecode alone would be a nightmare), or LongGOP compression scheme that would allow it to be compressed to a rate suitable for a consumer. This is far future stuff. I guess you'd have to go to 300fps for editing it...

    Only mixed format stuff I could think of is 50/60Hz cut-scenes or video in a game, followed by high frame rate gameplay stuff. But then the video/cut scene would be 50 or 60Hz not both?
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  13. Maybe Chromecast is the last piece of the puzzle that does not support "real film cadence"?

    I'm wondering also, why so many motion pictures are still released in 23.976fps?
    Because they use same timed audio masters for bd / uhd than with dvd?
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