Video shooting in HDR or SDR. Does HDR worth?

[Truthler]

HDR causes headache for me.

I shot the video trough that 3 layered dirty windows: See: https://i.ibb.co/gT9cbyC/windows.png

There are a lot of problems with HDR.

If somebody do not have HDR monitor can not enjoy it (makes it worse)

If somebody has HDR monitor, he also plays non HDR content and HDR content.

In Windows you must manually switch between HDR mode and non-HDR mode.

I uploaded two screenshots from live video of my FDR-AX700 camcorder.

Without HDR:

https://i.ibb.co/Z16GTTQ/without.png

With HDR:

https://i.ibb.co/tXhLqX9/HDR.png

Does the HDR mode increased the details or colors?

[rrats]

One of them is sharpened, other is not

[Truthler]

One of them is sharpened, other is not

So, do you think that the activation of HDR has a sharpening effect?

Did you turn on and off the HDR for your monitor to examine the video snapshots?

[rrats]

I don't need an HDR monitor to see the sharpening halos.

[Selur]

Yes, HDR seems sharper in native resoltion. Looks like some contrast sharpening.
Does not seem like more colors more like the lighting changed a bit.

[Truthler]

Yes, HDR seems sharper in native resoltion. Looks like some contrast sharpening.
Does not seem like more colors more like the lighting changed a bit.

Exactly Selur.

User S-mp was wrong.

When I make the screenshot in HDR mode, the picture looks much sharper..... There is no artificial sharpening in the camera. IT is made by (somehow) the Windows HDR mode.

[usually_quiet]

Your camera uses HLG for HDR. That is the problem. In general, support for HLG is not as good as support for HDR10. All UHD HDR monitors and UHD HDR TVs are required to support HDR10. Windows 10 officially supports HDR10. I can't find anything indicating there is support for HLG HDR metadata in Windows.

Sony UHD TVs do support HLG and are recommended for watching video direct from your camera but not all TVs support HLG and most UHD HDR monitors only support HDR10. However, unlike HDR10, HDR10+, and Dolby Vision, HLG is backward compatible with standard dynamic range displays and HLG provides only relatively mild enhancement. Your Windows PC is likely ignoring HLG's HDR metadata and using the SDR-compatible video data.

[Edit] HLG uses the BT.2020 color space for SDR, which means traditional SDR displays that can only interpret BT.709 won't display it correctly.

[Truthler]

Your camera uses HLG for HDR. That is the problem. In general, support for HLG is not as good as support for HDR10. All UHD HDR monitors and UHD HDR TVs are required to support HDR10. Windows 10 officially supports HDR10. I can't find anything indicating there is support for HLG HDR metadata in Windows.

Sony UHD TVs do support HLG and are recommended for watching video direct from your camera but not all TVs support HLG and most UHD HDR monitors only support HDR10. However, unlike HDR10, HDR10+, and Dolby Vision, HLG is backward compatible with standard dynamic range displays and HLG provides only relatively mild enhancement. Your Windows PC is likely ignoring HLG's HDR metadata and using the SDR-compatible video data.

[Edit] HLG uses the BT.2020 color space for SDR, which means traditional SDR displays that can only interpret BT.709 won't display it correctly.

I use a smaller 55" Sony XR55A83JAEP TV as my monitor. https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/support/televisions-projectors-oled-tvs-android-/xr...specifications

[DB83]

@Truthler, No I do not have HDR but I do have a serious question for you. So I would appreciate a serious, no BS, answer. In fact just a simple answer.

The question:


What is your viewing distance from your normal sitting position to your 55" tv/monitor ?

[Truthler]

@Truthler, No I do not have HDR but I do have a serious question for you. So I would appreciate a serious, no BS, answer. In fact just a simple answer.

The question:


What is your viewing distance from your normal sitting position to your 55" tv/monitor ?

40 cm, to see the individual pixels. I had to turn my head frequently (which is healthy) and continuous refocus with my eyes to see the edges and the center of the TV. Thus my eyes & neck work continuously, I can avoid the side effect of watching monoton way in 1 direction, and focusing for 1 distance.

Most of my age group (b. late 1970s early 1980s) have to wear eye glasses or contact lens... for long readings (office works), because their eyes aren't perfect.

I chosed the Ax700, because after a pixel deep examionation of 8 pro-summer camcorders... it gave the highest details at my home test. I returned the other camcorders (I have 12 days for that) and I get the full refund of the warehouse. I chosed the Ax700 to remain as my own camera.

[usually_quiet]

Your camera uses HLG for HDR. That is the problem. In general, support for HLG is not as good as support for HDR10. All UHD HDR monitors and UHD HDR TVs are required to support HDR10. Windows 10 officially supports HDR10. I can't find anything indicating there is support for HLG HDR metadata in Windows.

Sony UHD TVs do support HLG and are recommended for watching video direct from your camera but not all TVs support HLG and most UHD HDR monitors only support HDR10. However, unlike HDR10, HDR10+, and Dolby Vision, HLG is backward compatible with standard dynamic range displays and HLG provides only relatively mild enhancement. Your Windows PC is likely ignoring HLG's HDR metadata and using the SDR-compatible video data.

[Edit] HLG uses the BT.2020 color space for SDR, which means traditional SDR displays that can only interpret BT.709 won't display it correctly.

I use a smaller 55" Sony XR55A83JAEP TV as my monitor. https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/support/televisions-projectors-oled-tvs-android-/xr...specifications

Sony's product page for your TV says it supports HDR although does not list the individual types of HDR with support. Your Sony model isn't sold here in the USA so I can't use my usual review websites to find more details about the types of HDR it supports. However, since it is a recent Sony OLED model, I will assume HLG is supported.

HLG metadata is supposed to enhance the brightness, sharpness, and color gamut of an image beyond SDR when the video is displayed on a compatible TV. Unfortunately, Windows doesn't currently have support for HLG's form of HDR. This means video using HLG won't display properly even if the TV connected to your computer does support HLG and BT.2020.

[Edit]My bad. I just discovered that HLG, unlike all the other forms of HDR that TVs support, doesn't use metatata. The actual problem is that Windows 10 doesn't know how to interpret the logarithmic portion of the signal curve that provides the HDR information used to produce a wider dynamic range. Instead, Windows 10 uses the gamma curve intended for SDR TVs. The gamma curve may be what introduces the sharpening effect.

[lordsmurf]

What is your viewing distance from your normal sitting position to your 55" tv/monitor ?

40 cm, to see the individual pixels. I had to turn my head frequently (which is healthy) and continuous refocus with my eyes to see the edges and the center of the TV. Thus my eyes & neck work continuously, I can avoid the side effect of watching monoton way in 1 direction, and focusing for 1 distance.
Most of my age group (b. late 1970s early 1980s) have to wear eye glasses or contact lens... for long readings (office works), because their eyes aren't perfect.

Ask a serious question, get a bullshit answer. Par for the course.

Normal viewing is 15" from a 55" TV?
Right.
Uh-huh.
No.

The "age group" comment is an underhanded attempt to insult anybody over his age (teens, 20s), a variation of GenZ smart-ass kids using "Boomer" to insult anything they don't understand or agree with. This "age" aspect is continued from another now-locked thread, where his comments are outing him, his age is showing.

In your own vernacular, he's taking the piss here. But he's not as clever as he thinks he is.

[Cornucopia]

Plus he/she isn't even remotely following SMPTE or DCI recommendations on optimal viewing distance. So much for aspiring to professionalism and "quality".


Scott

[DB83]

If you think, as I do, that 40 cm (appr. 15") is close, then you ought to have seen the original answer - 30 to 35 cm

I do not know what is optimal, even for this glasses-wearing 'oldie' but I will generally sit appr. 22" (55 cm) away from my modest 21" monitor.


And the reason for a serious question ? I saw the 'headache' comment. And even if I misconstrued that do carry on and your 'perfect' eyes will soon not be. Just as 'perfect' ears can often be damaged by incorrect use of headphones.

[Truthler]

If you think, as I do, that 40 cm (appr. 15") is close, then you ought to have seen the original answer - 30 to 35 cm

I do not know what is optimal, even for this glasses-wearing 'oldie' but I will generally sit appr. 22" (55 cm) away from my modest 21" monitor.


And the reason for a serious question ? I saw the 'headache' comment. And even if I misconstrued that do carry on and your 'perfect' eyes will soon not be. Just as 'perfect' ears can often be damaged by incorrect use of headphones.

Optimal viewing distance is not equal with healthy viewing distance. Fixed focus fixed pupil, no moving of head etc... That is unhealthy "optimal comfortable" viewing distance. Healthy distance means if your head and eyes moving like the eyes and head of a WW2 pilot during dogfight. Your official viewing distances were determined by general movie watching pleasure/comfort and not for video editing. Becaue, PIXELs MATTERS!

[Cornucopia]

No. Wrong again, @Truthler.

[Truthler]

No. Wrong again, @Truthler.

Why? In the official optimal viewing distance, you can not see the individual pixels of the video! It is important in the comparison of video editing/conversion etc.

[DB83]

Maybe you should seek out and ask someone who ACTUALLY knows what one writes about. 'Individual Pixels' do me a feckin' favour.

And even if you could (which you can not) see the individual pixels (or at least even in your 55" display) what are you gonna do about the ones that are wrong ? Or is that an error in the camera or the display ?


BTW The prize for the member who changes his image more often than he changes his socks goes to...


BTW2 Most regular people will move their head and re-focus their eyes on an image that is greater than their standard (narrow) view. Even sitting some 22" inches away from a 21" monitor the human eye can only focus on the part of the image directly in front. Move the head (or the eyes) - a natural reaction in most 'healthy' people will re-focus. At a certain point, viewing at an odd angle will impair ones perception of accuracy. To even suggest that regular head movements and eye-refocusing (even if you can) at extreme points is 'healthy' is suspect. But you are not a medical professional. If you want others to believe the sh*t that you regularily spew out then at least you need to link to actual clinical findings when you can still see to find those links.

[Truthler]

Maybe you should seek out and ask someone who ACTUALLY knows what one writes about. 'Individual Pixels' do me a feckin' favour.

And even if you could (which you can not) see the individual pixels (or at least even in your 55" display) what are you gonna do about the ones that are wrong ? Or is that an error in the camera or the display ?


BTW The prize for the member who changes his image more often than he changes his socks goes to...


BTW2 Most regular people will move their head and re-focus their eyes on an image that is greater than their standard (narrow) view. Even sitting some 22" inches away from a 21" monitor the human eye can only focus on the part of the image directly in front. Move the head (or the eyes) - a natural reaction in most 'healthy' people will re-focus. At a certain point, viewing at an odd angle will impair ones perception of accuracy. To even suggest that regular head movements and eye-refocusing (even if you can) at extreme points is 'healthy' is suspect. But you are not a medical professional. If you want others to believe the sh*t that you regularily spew out then at least you need to link to actual clinical findings when you can still see to find those links.

People who do not really care about quality , won't understand it. It is a necessity for video editing to apply effects, and check the quality, before the video will be saved.

[DB83]

There are many things written or linked to on here that I do not fully understand. But they are here and that gives me the opportunity to explore the subject fuller.

I guess that many on here do not even understand your topic header which I repeat here since you will surely revise that at some stage.


With HDR or without HDR? Does it worth?




But most people who come across it even when they accidentally tread on it recognise Bullshit when they see it.

[Truthler]

There are many things written or linked to on here that I do not fully understand. But they are here and that gives me the opportunity to explore the subject fuller.

I guess that many on here do not even understand your topic header which I repeat here since you will surely revise that at some stage.


With HDR or without HDR? Does it worth?




But most people who come across it even when they accidentally tread on it recognise Bullshit when they see it.

You can put only limited short question in the lead.

For those who don't use HDR capable monitor or cameras, the whole question is unimportant. Many narrow-minded people exist on our planet, who consider automatically everything bullshit, which is personally not important for them. Unfortunatelly, they are the global supermajority in all societies.

[usually_quiet]

Speaking of this thread's original subject: It's possible that Scott might know more than I do about HDR.

However, I do have an inkling of what Windows does with various forms of HDR video. I have 2 PCs running Windows 10 and one PC running Windows 11 and have a monitor connected to one of them that accepts UHD video with HDR10, although that monitor uses tone-mapping internally because it only has an 8-bit panel. I have downloaded and played lots of clips from YouTube and https://4kmedia.org/ both 4K and 8K with and without HDR. I have samples using HDR10, Dolby Vision, and HLG.

As far as I can tell Windows 10 and Windows 11 HDR settings are meant to be used with HDR10 and Dolby Vision. However, Dolby Vision is only available under Windows 10/11 using streaming services that can supply it when watching via their streaming apps and then only if the computer is connected to a display that supports Dolby Vision.

[Truthler]

Speaking of this thread's original subject: It's possible that Scott might know more than I do about HDR.

However, I do have an inkling of what Windows does with various forms of HDR video. I have 2 PCs running Windows 10 and one PC running Windows 11 and have a monitor connected to one of them that accepts UHD video with HDR10, although that monitor uses tone-mapping internally because it only has an 8-bit panel. I have downloaded and played lots of clips from YouTube and https://4kmedia.org/ both 4K and 8K with and without HDR. I have samples using HDR10, Dolby Vision, and HLG.

As far as I can tell Windows 10 and Windows 11 HDR settings are meant to be used with HDR10 and Dolby Vision. However, Dolby Vision is only available under Windows 10/11 using streaming services that can supply it when watching via their streaming apps and then only if the computer is connected to a display that supports Dolby Vision.

Scott (alias Cornucopia) is an old guy, because he obviously got insults (like boomer) from youngsters. He has a long experience with video making, and knows an awful lot of things about it, maybe much more than any other members on this forum. However he is not infallible either. My TV panel is (maybe) 10bit HDR, because it was in its advertisement. However the source camera FDR-AX700 works in 8bit in 4K mode.

[Richard_G]

I wondered if anyone else was going to ask and it seems DB83 has. I only looked at the thread as I had no idea what was being asked, then saw who had started it and realised it should be good for a laugh.

With HDR or Without HDR? Does it worth? So are you asking, does it work or are you asking if it is worth it? I have absolutely no idea.

What I will say is that each pixel on your TV is made up of 3 little coloured dot so by sitting there with your nose pressed against the screen you can't judge the quality of the video, only the way your TV is displaying it.

[usually_quiet]

I am convinced that HDR is worth it but it doesn't always work.

[dellsam34]

The viewing distance really depends on the screen size and resolution of the panel, The way I do it is start from a closer distance where I can discern individual pixels and back away until they disappear, that's is the optimal viewing distance in my opinion. I have a LG OLED 65" UHD TV in my bedroom (12'x12') and I'm hanging it on the wall, my bed's headboard is on the opposite wall and it happen to be a perfect viewing distance. On my media room I have a 110" projection screen fired by a Sony HD only projector and I sit at about 18' away comfortably. I know they are very close distances but those are my rooms limits, I can't knock the walls down.

[rrats]

then saw who had started it and realised it should be good for a laugh.

I kinda like Truthler's threads. He always asks a dumb question, gets an answer, doesn't listen to that answer and starts 'proving other members wrong', spawning a keyboard fight which can last for quite a while before the tread gets locked

[lordsmurf]

I'm just going to leave this right here...

Truthler
Artist // Student // Literature
United States, Deviant for 3 years, He / Him
My Bio: I prefer word technologist, love sweatpants, and the earth and truth, Like the truth that everything is conciousness which in turn means everything is you, you are your cat your are the universe etc. Time to wake up fellow humans!

Oh yeah, that's him, I'd wager money on it. (I know it lists U.S. as location, but odds are it's either BS, or a student that has moved to or from.)

[DB83]

'Deviant'. That creates a can-o-worms in itself.

But if these images are your tru-self then you are wasting your precious time. Better go to a dating site - even some 'queerers' might be interested

[Truthler]

Again, personal attacks instead of reasoning. Why are some people so inerested about my pictures / avatars... Jaundice & frustration ?

Let's go to the topic, which is about HDR.