Hi everyone, I'm looking for a better way to digitize my Laserdiscs using a Pioneer CLD D704. I'm looking for a capture card with a 3D comb filter, as well as a way to capture the digital audio track.
Right now I use an i-o data gv usb2 which has a 4 line comb filter, but the rainbow effects still show up strong, especially on white text.
I also have a Pinnacle 710 USB which has an annoying audio noise issue and gives me much worse results than the i-o data, and an USB3HDCAP (the Startech version of the Yuan UB535) which looks identical to the i-o data with PAL and NTSC composite sources, but has also a good SECAM encoder (unlike the i-o data).
I heard that an old Hauppauge WinTV HVR 1250 (which is cheap on eBay here as nobody needs ATSC in Europe) has a 3D comb filter and is compatible with Windows 10 as well. The new European model HVR 5525 also does that I heard, but it's quite expensive. I heard about the old ATI cards being amazing, but other than having to set up an old Windows OS PC, I'd have to find them, and it's not easy.
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Other than the Hauppauge I'm not aware of any cap cards than have a 2 or 3D comb filter built in. There are a handful of other devices than have good 3d comb filters. I sometimes use a Toshiba RS-X32 dvd recorder as a pass-through for it's filter. Other Panasonic dvd recorders have decent, but not great 3d comb filters. I also use an EVAL 7842 board. There is a neat satellite receiver by Sony; MBT (forgot the rest of the numbers) but it has an excellent cf. There is a newly discovered Kramer 773 that folks at the laserdisc forums are saying is great. I have an HLD-X0 LD player and use it's built-in cf, and then use Neat Video in post to clean up any remaining rainbows etc.
There aren't many cap cards than can capture digital audio simultaneously with analog video. I have an Osprey 827e which can do digital & analog video & audio. No built-in comb filter though. I'm using Windows 10.
At this point I may go for the HVR 1250. Has anyone tested it before? All the other devices you mentioned look pretty difficult to find. I'm not sure if your elite player looks that much better compared to the CLD D704.
For digital audio I may go for a sound card.
3D comb filter it is not so uncommon - to name few companies offering digital video decoders with 3D comb filter: TI, AD, Renesas, ATI (THEATER 550 PRO) - this one may be most interesting...
Seem Conexant is also with 3D comb filter https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1356251#post1356251
Last edited by pandy; 19th Feb 2022 at 07:24.
I know someone who tried the Domesday duplicator but had no success. I'm not sure if I should bother. I see my captures have no smear (unless it's baked in the master tape they used), so I'm not going to get a 3000$ player.
For the Hauppauge I think I posted the wrong model by looking at the old comparison charts. It's the HVR 1600/50, 1800/50 and 2250 that have the 3D filter.
I'll look into the SM14. I think I need an SDI device though.
Yes you will need an SDI interface, If you have a desktop a PCI SDI card can be installed cheaply, SDI-USB3 adapters are little pricey. But that's about as high in quality as you can go compared to a conventional USB 2.0 route and its inherit problems.
I got the card today so I may just as well post this. The CX23888 chip adds way too much ghosting/checkerboarding on pretty much anything that moves. I don't think there's a setting to tweak it either.
I may go for the DVD recorder route if there's a good one.
Many have found simple passthrough into JVC S-VHS decks to be quite adequate.
There are some unique TBCs with comb filters, though you have to be careful not to get the common latter flawed models (ie, the crap on eBay).
ATI 550 chips/cards have AGC issues, avoid.
Be wary of Hauppauge. Many cards are long lived, and they recycle model numbers. So cards can vary, even with the same number. It's hard to track some of these, aside from buying and cracking open to verify chips.
I've seen the Conexant CX23418 has a 3D comb filter and signal stabilization on top (unlike the 23888) but the cards (like the HVR 1600) are PCI and not PCIe. My motherboard only has PCIe slots.
I was hoping to find a S VHS machine for parts just to use it as a passthrough now that you mention it, but I can't find any. Then they probably wouldn't even output NTSC.
I also heard those Panasonic DVD recorder models only support either PAL or NTSC depending on the region, so that'd be another problem.
As for the TBC you mentioned, which models have the comb filters?
Also, is there any difference between a 4 line and a 5 line 2D comb filter? Because I have a 32bit exclusive device by Pinnacle that has a 5 line filter.
Yeah, at least for models from 2005 and on (not sure about the older ones, not sure if those have 3d Y/C either.)
Newer dvd/hdd recorder models from Pioneer (from 2006) and Sony ones based around the same chipset like the RDR-HX750 in europe and australia can also do both ntsc and PAL, and have 3d Y/C.
There are some recievers and media processors that do too, there are long threads on the lddb forums with various tests on laserdisc specifically.
I found an European instruction manual for the DMR ES15 and it says it supports all 3 formats. The US one says that PAL is not supported instead. I found an unit on FB Marketplace for cheap.
As for Pioneer and Sony, do all models after 2006 have 3D filtering? I see for sale some with HDMI support and such.
I attached a LD capture test with the CX23888 on animation (so you can see the ghosting better).
This 'ghosting' has nothing to do with poor 3D comb filtering. Google for IVTC (inverse telecining) and PAL (or Film)<->NTSC framerate conversion.
Last edited by Sharc; 17th Mar 2022 at 12:13.
here. (The GX257 has a completely different interface.) Older Sonys, and the ones that are combo with VCR are completely different.
@Sharc I don't IVTC my LD rips. I prefer to keep all the information, especially because some older masters have field blending instead of 3:2 pulldown, the hard subs on Japanese LDs are inserted in 60i, etc.
Maybe I used the wrong term. What I meant is I see very visible checkerboard artifacts on anything that moves, they don't show up like that with the 2D comb filter. I have some rip from a R7G with S Video and the 3D comb filter doesn't do that.
Yep, I see what you mean. There is dotcrawl which is a case for a good comb filter, I agree.
This is a chip from 2002 which was included in higher end Panasonic DVD/HDD recorders in the later years. (DMR-EH80 +)
It does just about everything.
In Japan this chip was the center piece of several "Video Stabilizers".
I think only Roland/Edirol Mixers and Converters ever got the chip in North America.. but they were hard to come by... and nose bleeding expensive, when new.. heck even when used today.
Take note the need of a 16 Mbit external SDRAM memory to enable its features.
Chasing a feature in consumer equipment is like looking for a needle in a hay stack, by the time you get to the right gear you will be broke. Just a reminder that PAL DVD recorders passthrough NTSC 4.43MHz not the true US 3.58MHz version as far as I know. The issue is irrelevant as long as you are connecting via component or HDMI but that opens up another can of worms for capturing thru those connections.
Isnít DMR EH80 a VCR combo?
I have the cheaper NV VP one that doesnít record on DVD, but the signal from the AV out seems the same. The S Video out though only applies to DVD playback.
Iím aware of the NTSC problem. For an example the Australian model of the combo I mentioned does proper NTSC, while the European models do 4.43.
Giving up and not looking is an option.
And it would be less expensive and less effort.
The exact model I was referring to wasn't meant to be taken literally as what to search for.. I was merely tossing it out as an example. I'm sure it was used in "many" models after the first year it was introduced.
I looked up the Service manual by inputting MN674744 into the Panasonic Service Manual "Find" field.
The model number popped out - (introduced in 2003) DMR-E80HP & DMR-E80HPC (not the EH80.. sorry my short term memory must be failing).
In UK/EU PAL fashion that would be the DMR-E85HEG (or something like that.. I don't know UK/EU models numbers that well.. but I thought they always added a "5" and sometimes made a separate UK and Germany model for the Continent.. I "think" the Germany models sometimes supported SECAM.. but I've never been to Europe)
In any event deeper details in the datasheet will indicate the Chip is multiformat sensitive and could process NTSC/PAL/SECAM.
I do not have experience with a PAL model with this exact chip.
There were a family of such chips;
You brought up casting a wide field for chips and cards.
We didn't go to such extreme here in North American.. at least not until all in one hardware compression chips for recording over the air broadcasts direct to MPEG2 became popular.
But Japan made digital signal cleaning and stabilizing chips much earlier.. and discretely to go into the DVD recorders they exported around the world.
In the US and Canada we "imported" them.. in the UK and EU.. it appears they "imported" components and assembled the units for sale in those target countries.. again I don't pretend to understand the issues as to "why they did that".
So in the US and Canada we were much less "aware" of how things were put together until someone read the service manuals for parts lists.
In the UK and EU I think they were more aware from the start.. and I don't know what year.. but I think they have a "Right to Repair" law or framework there so the information was easier to come by.
I stumbled across some imported Japan video stabilizers and went back in time using the Wayback machine at archive.org and translated some video capture blogs from over there.. not for this but for a different reason.. and ran across detailed teardowns and discussions about the chips inside them.
Panasonic (Matsushita) was a big conglomerate in Japan, much like NEC and later Pioneer and had their own chip design and fabs.. which were always ahead of the curve and did things that didn't show up in the West unless it was imported inside something else.
anyway.. i'll shut up about them now.
One other thought occurs to me,
Back in the 1970's or 80's I thought Laserdiscs came with built-in TBC chips and output only Composite..like Betacam.
The TBC was to compensate for dropouts on the Laserdiscs themselves from age.
If so.. then the signals might be a lot more stable than VHS and not have any spikes in their sync fields.. also frame lock errors should be non-existent.. so this is a very different animal from the problems a VCR would typically have.
The "crawling dot problem" is unavoidable when using a Composite output, in order to decode it into it Y Pr Pb components before analog to digital conversion, some cross talk between the color and luma is inevitable.. and thats why you need a comb filter.
So while you could use a Comb filter with a TBC and a Frame Sync for a VCR video capture workflow.
All you should need for a Laserdisc workflow should be a good Comb filter.
Early capture used 2D filters, later ones offered 2D or 3D with YNR and CNR (but 3D would soften the picture)... so it was a choice.
There is some debate as to which is better, the older Comb filter inside a playback device (if it has YPrPb or YCrCb / YUV outputs) or using a newer technology Comb filter external to the playback device.. but keep in mind the cable to carry the signal can lead to cross talk and smearing of the color and luma.
I babble on about this.. just to point out.. Laserdisc problems are not the same as VCR problems.. and you might get mixed results with the answers you receive asking in a predominately "vcr" forum.
Also.. I think Laserdisc had a higher Vertical Lines of Resolution than VHS, closer to Betacam. So that would be good.
But the storage format may be that you can never get around "dot crawl".. you may be reaching the limits of diminishing returns.
You may want to suppress ("fix") the dotcrawl with post precessing filters.
The old 32-bit VirtualDub plugin 'dotcrawl.vdf' does a pretty decent job when applied directly to NTSC telecined video. It is available from the archive here:
There are Avisynth filters as well, but for telecined NTSC footage I found the vdub plugin more effective and easier to use.
Last edited by Sharc; 18th Mar 2022 at 10:41.
Thanks. I'll try that script.
Btw I see a DMR EH55 for 25 euros which is very good. Is it like the ES15?
Can't compare the EH50 with an ES15 as I don't have an ES10 or ES15. I had an E20 however and I found the EH50 even slightly better than the E20. But there might be different opinions on that I imagine. The differences were subtle anyway.
I think you can't go wrong with an EH55 for that price, assuming it is working and does not suffer from leaked electrolytic capacitors or a dark display - the known caveats with these Pannys.
As far as I know, the EH55 is essentially ES15 + hard drive, EH50 is essentially ES10 + hard drive. If it's like the later models you want to let it sit for maye 15 minutes before capturing as there is a pop-up message when the hard-drive goes into power saving mode.