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  1. I have an SRT in Subtitle Edit but there's a lot of work put into it and I'm not experimenting on it. In Tools there is a Split feature. Assuming that is how to get two lines, very short, from one showing a new speaker, what are the steps to do so? I see there is some sort of calculation to do. Please explain the process in steps.

    thanks for assistance.
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  2. Member Ennio's Avatar
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    I appreciate the enormous amount of time and work that can go behind an srt. My strong advice is first to create multiple "testing" copies that are allowed to be buggered up. Learning new stuff, it's hard to go around trial runs which are prone to human error. Working with "disposables" is a reassuring way to get confident with how things are done.

    What "calculation" do you mean? Correct me if I'm wrong in understanding, but when you right-click a subtitle and go "Split", the selected subtitle will be split into two lines without any calculation on your side. Of course SE itself will auto-set a new end- and startpoint inbetween. I assume if editing these to your own likings, you want to do this visiually instead of with a calculator?

    BTW don't confuse with "Tools --> Split subtitle". This is an entirely different function where a whole srt-file can be chopped up into two or more, and where you indeed need to first enter specific parameters.
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  3. Ok I managed the split. And yes, I have backups made after every session. And yes, I did mistake the Split Subtitle for editing. Can I fine tune at the split within the timings? This is very short-- Like First Speaker Hello, Second Speaker Hello.
    But in breaking the lines there needs to be perhaps a lengthening of one beat and give the screen time to refresh without messing up everything else.

    Re-reading above, I don't know the use of the 'calculator.'

    Also I think I made the error of trying a delay and applying it to the whole instead of just one line. And this job requires listening for words spoken and then written incorrectly-- the obvious example that caught my eye first was 'whelp" written as 'wealth". Of course it didn't make any sense and my written copy proved it. So the job got a lot more detailed.



    Anoither problem I saw was where a delay for a stage cross is needed to synch with the speaker. This is all getting pretty fine grained I know,
    but I'm in it now to do the best I can.
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  4. Member Ennio's Avatar
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    My use of the word "calculator" was to point to your phrase "I see there is some sort of calculation to do." Where I didn't know what calculation you were speaking of. Never mind now, it's sorted.

    With very short lines like "Hello. - Hello." times can be very short and my first consideration would be not splitting the line. It depends how fast the words are spoken and the timegap inbetween. I think you want to avoid too short durations, even for a very short line. I have set minimal duration of 800ms. Sometimes I find it necessary to let the first line start a bit earlier and/or the second one end later. It all depends.

    When editing the start- and endpoints, and timings are critical, a good way is using the buttons in the "Create" tab. Take a look at the screenshot.

    Image
    [Attachment 62692 - Click to enlarge]


    Note the buttons and values in the red area. The value represents a step backwards or forwards in time when hitting one of the adjacent buttons. I set this to (about) one frametime. In this example, for working with 23,976 fps I set it to 42ms. This allows me to take steps frame by frame. When fine-tuning, I use the buttons to go to the exact frame where I want to start/stop and then use either F11 or F12 (or 'Set start time' and 'Set end time' buttons).
    When during hard screenchanges also speakers are switched, you may want to consider editing frame-accurate instead of "audio-accurate". With not too big differences between the two, it can be way easier to the eye when subtitles switch at the the same moment video does.
    As for splitting lines manually I also use the tab. When the two parts have to be displayed direcly after each other, I found a (for me) handy way by going to the point where you want to end the first part of it, "Set end time", step to the next frame and use the button "Insert new subtitle at video pos". Cut the second part out of the first & paste in the second. Probably needed, adjust end time of the second part.

    Doing subtitles for years, I think I know how "fine grained" things can get. Do note that I also think everyone should adapt a workflow he/she is comfortable with. Exploring the possibilities and options of the software, you may experience doing edits another way easier or more suited to you. As such, the examples of my workflow show nothing more than a way things can be done and not how they should be done.
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  5. I think you are right about the line split. In thinking it through a solution would be to use one line, show the first speaker (who is off screen) in parenthesis' name and a couple of dash lines without messing with the timings.

    I'll go over what you've said above. It takes me quite a while to absorb things.
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  6. I am back and re-reading this. In looking at the info above I know little about all the timing issues. But a question on adjusting time is:
    Won't Subtitle Edit throw up red flags for any of this as over writing or whatever term Nikse used for a violation? I haven't got it open right now. What I do is for personal use so I can fool around with this. But I think dealing with frames and such could go awry-- meaning I'd screw it up. The other thing is I have to get to a completion some time. As I go over the first one of these I've tackled in a big way, more and more errors and refinements crop up with each "run through" which is a 2 hr 20 minute play. I'm on the third one by my reckoning.
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  7. Member Ennio's Avatar
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    I'm not quite sure what you exactly mean with timing issues here.
    In the first place there can be timecode values which can cause playback issues. There are some well-known reasons which can cause a player to show issues, such as overlapping timecodes or no/too short gaps between end- and starttimes. Note that not every player behaves the same way.

    I have learned it's good practice to run "Tools --> Fix common errors". There is a quite extensive list with various matters you can select to "scan for & repair". Some are timings-related and will certainly address issues mentioned in this thread. So yes, SE definitely can "throw up red flags". It may be handy to run it before go editing. As I learned that subtitle editing can introduce flaws, it's certainly one of the last things I do.

    when timings are ill-chosen, a bad experience can also be acknowledged as issue. When subtitles are incorrectly time-matched to audio and/or video, things can become ugly to watch.
    If timings are critical (which you will decide in the first place) things can indeed "get pretty fine grained". Where dealing with frames - as I explained - is not really dealing with frames. Mine is just a way of being able to set start/end timecodes very precisely, with the help of frame-by-frame preview. And it's really not difficult at all; just set a small step-time and practice with the buttons. You'll get the hang of it within a couple of times trying. Don't worry about screwing up, it comes with learning.
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  8. One question on Subtitle Edit. By accident I had the video window expanded so I could read my subtitles without squinting.
    But I do not know how to control it or even if it is worthwhile since I'm using the SE edit window for every line.
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  9. Member Ennio's Avatar
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    In Options --> Settings --> Video player you can set the font type & size for the subtitles preview to your convenience.
    As for the video window there is an option to go Video --> Un-dock video controls, the preview window will detach and you can drag it to any size and position. To go back, go Video --> Re-dock video controls.

    Hope this helps.
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  10. Ok I'll experiment with it. Thanks for all your replies.
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  11. I just need to ask a lot of querstions about these red flag error things in SubtitleEdit. If I am using the Controls in SubtitleEdit
    F11 and F12, will the problem line stop showing red when the right length is achieved?

    I saw a problem showing on screen that introduced a third line. Where would a third line go?

    I have a poor understanding of this and even with working a scratch practice file, want to know what to expect.
    Last edited by loninappleton; 16th Jan 2022 at 22:26.
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  12. Member Ennio's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    If I am using the Controls in SubtitleEdit
    F11 and F12, will the problem line stop showing red when the right length is achieved?
    You have to differentiate the functions of the step value, the buttons and the F11 and F12 keys. If you set both the "step value" in the Create tab, and "Minimum gap between subtitles" in General Settings to the same value, the lines that you applied the splitting to the way I described, will indeed not show up in the list after you searched with "Fix common errors". At least, not for timings issues. Of course other lines can pop-up because the original timings can have smaller gaps than the value you have set.

    Again, the proper value for minimal gap is player-dependent. Some players just know how to handle "no gaps" properly. Others don't. What I did to be fool-proof is set the value to 42ms. This ensures me that the endtime of a subtitle and the starttime of the next one can't coexist within one frame (with frame-rates of 23.976 fps and higher, that is).

    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    I saw a problem showing on screen that introduced a third line. Where would a third line go?
    Often a third line is accepted by a player. Where it goes I think depends on the player. My current player just shows them as a third line. You'll have to find out how your player reacts.
    So, the "problem showing on screen" doesn't exactly have to be a problem. SE shows you this because most probably, in General Settings, "Max number of lines" is set to 2, and "Fix subtitles with more than two lines" is selected in the common errors-list. This combination is widely used, as many people don't want more than 2 lines in their subs.
    If third lines are no problem for both you and your player, you can simply not select the fix.
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    What Ennio said

    You can use a shortcut to split at both video position and text cursor - see how here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ6BOnnnNfU&t=5m
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  14. Sorry for delays in answering. I'm not very quick on the uptake in understanding the language and process of doing this.
    Just one question here on Fix Common Problems. If, for instance, I do an edit with Spell Check in Subtitle Edit should I
    run Fix Common Errors after editing again?

    At another run- through I think the error message with third line in the Subtitle Edit player got ignored by VLC. Is the Subtitle Edit player able to or showing things other players such as VLC do not?

    @Nikse, YouTube tutorials with dancing microscopic mouse pointers give me fits. I can't and don't care to watch any of them they make me that mad (sanity and anger both) I tried to look at the series by the guy whose name always shows up and had to bail on it. Those things went on before I came back to videohelp.

    I was not able to find the Unlock screen buttons or prompts at the Tools /Video. Perhaps a screen shot would help.
    But in the end I think keeping the screens in their place even if hard to read on the Video is better than flipping back and forth. The spell check is a good feature and I only just used that recently.
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  15. Originally Posted by Ennio View Post
    My use of the word "calculator" was to point to your phrase "I see there is some sort of calculation to do." Where I didn't know what calculation you were speaking of. Never mind now, it's sorted.

    With very short lines like "Hello. - Hello." times can be very short and my first consideration would be not splitting the line. It depends how fast the words are spoken and the timegap inbetween. I think you want to avoid too short durations, even for a very short line. I have set minimal duration of 800ms. Sometimes I find it necessary to let the first line start a bit earlier and/or the second one end later. It all depends.

    When editing the start- and endpoints, and timings are critical, a good way is using the buttons in the "Create" tab. Take a look at the screenshot.

    Image
    [Attachment 62692 - Click to enlarge]


    Note the buttons and values in the red area. The value represents a step backwards or forwards in time when hitting one of the adjacent buttons. I set this to (about) one frametime. In this example, for working with 23,976 fps I set it to 42ms. This allows me to take steps frame by frame. When fine-tuning, I use the buttons to go to the exact frame where I want to start/stop and then use either F11 or F12 (or 'Set start time' and 'Set end time' buttons).
    When during hard screenchanges also speakers are switched, you may want to consider editing frame-accurate instead of "audio-accurate". With not too big differences between the two, it can be way easier to the eye when subtitles switch at the the same moment video does.
    As for splitting lines manually I also use the tab. When the two parts have to be displayed direcly after each other, I found a (for me) handy way by going to the point where you want to end the first part of it, "Set end time", step to the next frame and use the button "Insert new subtitle at video pos". Cut the second part out of the first & paste in the second. Probably needed, adjust end time of the second part.

    Doing subtitles for years, I think I know how "fine grained" things can get. Do note that I also think everyone should adapt a workflow he/she is comfortable with. Exploring the possibilities and options of the software, you may experience doing edits another way easier or more suited to you. As such, the examples of my workflow show nothing more than a way things can be done and not how they should be done.
    I wanted to get that screen attachment displayed again here. My default Subititle Edit shows 0.5 not 0,042 What is the convention for decimal. ? I have the period on mine, the sample shows commas. Your setting seems like a big difference from the default which loads. What am I getting wrong on this?
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  16. 'Found the unlock button that goes to full screen. However it is completely full screen and no control to pause.
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  17. Unlock is working now-- have the controls at screen bottom.

    I'm not making a new topic but I noticed a difficulty. Subtitle Edit will remember previous experimental settings. So when I loaded a big job for finalization the subs
    went haywire. Then I realized I had those settings Ennio was describing above. Fortunately I have more than on backup file and mirrored PC setup. On the SE default it has .0500
    and 5.000

    From the Control box that should be the interval? I need some explanation. But once I get my synchronization back for Subtitle, Video and Audio, does
    Subtitle Edit just save the SRT which I repeatedly did throughout my edit? That began with using the audio hairline to drag back a bit to get a good start time for the
    audio. I just can't recall if that shows up in the SRT window.


    An update. I have my synch back with the audio file and video in the SE player. To make trhis work I drag the audio hairline to a mark where audio begins.
    I may need to know how to fix that delay in the audio with one of the audio tools to keep everything together for a normal playback.

    Until I see new answers I'll try a runthrough with VLC, load the separate SRT and perhaps need to fix the delay with the VLC J and K keys for forward or back just to see if that is a problem. I do not see a way to save audio with a change within Subtitle Edit.


    So several timing issues to figure out. I hope to reset the start and stop to .0500 and 5.000 and leave it there for the completion of this job.
    Last edited by loninappleton; 17th Jan 2022 at 19:48.
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  18. To begin to use Subtitle Edit with a simple test, I have a line in which I need to add a couple of words from the audio which did not get translated to text. I tried a simple insert but it threw off the timing. Many lines have the 'tan' or whatever color it is as an indicator of something.

    In a sample line (line 403) for my reference) where the start is 00:18:07.374 and the end is 00:18:09.457 and next begin line is 00:18:17.398 can I safely add a few ms to the end of that line to allow for a new word?

    This is getting very hard to parse as I look at it more finely all the time.

    Another question is: can I recalculate ( but not too much) with the Create box as described above a little more length on all? I've just not seen the F11 or F12 controls working or available

    If I get one or two I won't have to ask all the time. Do I need to find the exact length of video vs the exact length of audio even if only seconds such as in a blackout at end of performance? This piece is 2 hrs 20m minutes-- lots of places to go wrong.
    Last edited by loninappleton; 22nd Jan 2022 at 18:48.
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  19. I RTFM'ed. Pretty far down the Nikse list. Way more than I can absorb or even know where to look due to lack of-- absorption.

    Anyway I was looking at the Settings page and the default frame rate is at 23.97. Would changing that to match the video frame rate commonly 25 for British, 29.97 for US fix my problem of too short a read time on screen? IOW what I see is the speaker starts ok,
    but the text will disappear while he's still at it. Not by a lot, just not as Nikse says 'synched' to the visual image. And I saw the Synch
    illlustration. With all these settings and having my _text edit_ mostly done I worry about having porridge in the subtitles as in
    one size does not fit all errors. I could practice on a clip but settings affect the whole job, don't they?-- or is it just in playback. This is another thing I don't get. After I save what do I have?
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  20. An update of editing. I did change one line timing upward for screen time until it showed an overlap warning then backed it off to
    just prior to the red warning message. I've learned to look at the timings more carefully but there is a lot to do.

    Time passes... did a few more and they look alright but I'll confirm that on a second look.
    Last edited by loninappleton; 23rd Jan 2022 at 00:18.
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  21. Member Ennio's Avatar
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    Syncing by "Synchronization --> Change framerate" does alter end - and start timestamps. Consequently, subtitle durations are stretched or shrinked. But only by a ratio that is equal to the ratio of the "from" and "to" framerates. You usually do this kind of timestamp-syncing when the subtitles come from a source with a different framerate than the video you're doing the subs for.

    Note that the srt format itself does not hold any framerate information; it is and stays just timestamps and text. As such, setting a default framerate doesn't do much, actually. You'll see that when you import a video, the framerate box will switch to that video's framerate.
    Framerate does become important when you go export to other formats.
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  22. That clears up some things. So you say just stay away from framerate.

    I'm making some progress. But there's an old (German) saying I recall which says "the further I go, the behinder I get." Or maybe it was just my uncle.

    On this, it's not really needed to repaint the Mona Lisa. But the closer I look at it the more errors from a second party (I've got to think it's not from the HD source and not the PBS source on disc: a boxed DVD which does _not_ have a subtitle file to reference. )

    Two things which I see as problematic. I have changed a couple of lines as I said to lengthen read time without going into an overlap. But this seems pretty consistent. If I used the Start and Stop box and add a bit of time to all, would those couple changed lines all overlap? I suppose if I just stopped a needed fix would not be hard. But I don't want to create a mess with issues I've seen in other videos with framerate being cumulative and such (getting worse as it goes)

    I did review the MediaInfo on the MKV. It's 30 fps from the HD source.
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    I read all your verbiage and I don't understand what the propblem is. Are the subtitles out of sync?
    Are they in sync but you're trying to fix the length of some individual lines?
    Something else?
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  24. Verbiage aside what I'm doing on this pass through the text is adding time to most lines until I hit the overlap in Subtitle Edit. Doing it manually seems to be working. But if there are other suggestions, go ahead.
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    Have you tried tools/fix common errors. One of the things it checks for is short display times based on the line length.
    The longer the line, the more time it takes to read (obviously).
    But you can only go as far as the beginning of the next line otherwise they'll overlap, as you've seen.
    If you want another set of eyes to look at it, upload the SRT and make note of the line numbers (from Subtitle Edit)
    that you're concerned about.
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  26. I used fix common errors at the outset. You could say if that should be run as a 'check' as I make changes. I'll hold off on the offer to upload, with thanks, until I hit a difficult spot.
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  27. Member Ennio's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    So you say just stay away from framerate.
    Depends on what you exactly mean by it. Maybe you have to read my post once more. The value in the framerate-box is auto-set when you import video. Which would be unnecessary to alter. Again, srt holds no framerate information. This does not take away the possibility that your source srt comes from a video with another framerate than the video you imported in SE. In which case you can use "Synchronization --> Change framerate" to sync the timestamps with the imported video.

    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    ...there's an old (German) saying I recall which says "the further I go, the behinder I get."
    I get it. buddy of mine always says something similar: "The more you know, the less you know."

    Originally Posted by loninappleton View Post
    I'll hold off on the offer to upload, with thanks, until I hit a difficult spot.
    If the original text would pose a problem, maybe for a next issue you can create & upload a short srt with generic text, but such that would represent the issue at hand. As davexnet says, maybe other people looking at it helps.
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  28. I suppose I should stay on the subject. The one thing I'd add is that in German, hinder has more than one meaning.

    I'll continue with the manual edits for the time being. It gives me a good sense of control of what needs more time.

    On the other question about Fix Common Problems, no reply on that so I'll leave it alone. Say when it would be good to start new topics.
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  29. Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    Have you tried tools/fix common errors. One of the things it checks for is short display times based on the line length.
    The longer the line, the more time it takes to read (obviously).
    But you can only go as far as the beginning of the next line otherwise they'll overlap, as you've seen.
    If you want another set of eyes to look at it, upload the SRT and make note of the line numbers (from Subtitle Edit)
    that you're concerned about.
    If I ran Fix Common Errors again, should I only check the specific thing you mentioned? There are benefits to doing it manually.
    I have found even more errors in the speeches in the transcribed subtitles and am correcting with a book text. Also used the musical notes highlight for the first time.
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    Select the fixes you want, deselect the others. Hit "next", then "apply selected fixes" on the next screen.
    If it did what you wanted, save it as a new file -
    file/save as
    subrip - (SRT) (for example)
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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