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  1. Some years ago I had a bunch of super 8 movies digitized. They were digitized to 2 sets of files, a pro-res set that doubled every 3rd frame to bring the 18fps up to 24fps, so that set is good as is. But I also had a set of uncompressed files made. The uncompressed files are of the actual frames, but it's still set as a 24fps file, so it plays too fast. But it has an accurate representation of the frames on the original movies.

    Uh.....what can I do with these files?

    I've not been able to figure out anything useful to do with them. I can pull them into a Sony Vegas session, and I've figured out how to create a Vegas session to be 18fps. But, I can't figure out how to pull in the file and have it set properly.

    I can set the playback speed to .750, but then the frames still drift and get to a point where the frame of the project is in between 2 frames of the movie. Not sure why I can't get it to work out perfectly there, apparently 24 actually means 23.976.....because keeping frame rates at even numbers would just make things too simple, and we can't have that.



    What's the best practice at this point? Is there something you'd recommend I do with the uncompressed files to get them in an 18fps format? Or is the pro-res 24fps files with the doubled frames the best option for super 8?
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  2. What's the final output format? Unless you're wanting to create an "industry compliant" video for a DVD or Bluray, why not just keep it at 18fps if Vegas can convert it to 18fps? If you're going to create an MKV or MP4, 18fps should be fine. I know nothing about Vegas so I can't help there.
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  3. Member DB83's Avatar
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    I know nothing about Vegas either. But surely using any editor is going to be a compromise.


    What you might wish to try is quite a basic editor avidemux. Once you change the video from 'copy' you can select various filters.


    One is Changefps which will also alter the run time.


    The other is resamplefps which leave the runtime the same.


    But the real tool for this is, I guess, avisynth. I would suggest you extract a short sample of the video with avidemux and A/B markers and upload that as an attachment here. Then one can determine just what is in the 24fps uncompressed and the best way forward.
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  4. Keep it at 18 fps? The problem is - it isn't at 18 fps. It's at 24 - and plays too fast. How do I get a file that is at 18fps?
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    Use Avidemux, change the video from "Copy" to say (pick your format) I use Mpeg4 AVC (x264), then click on "Filters" and Change FPS to 18 this will change the duration i.e. slowing it down.

    Image
    [Attachment 62063 - Click to enlarge]
    It's not important the problem be solved, only that the blame for the mistake is assigned correctly
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  6. I'm assuming the uncompressed file has unique frames , no duplicates

    What does vegas think the fps is ? What does it say in the clip bin ? What does mediainfo say ?

    If it's 24000/1001 (23.976), you'd use 0.75075 . If it's 24/1 you'd use 0.75



    The other option is to patch the uncompressed files to 18fps before importing, depending on what type of uncompressed file and container . Or slow it down in avisynth or vdub, and re-export uncompressed again. Patching would be faster than having to re-write the entire file out again, but it depends on what type of file

    One issue in many NLE's, including vegas, is different types of "uncompressed" get treated differently. So the type of "uncompressed", the pixel format and fourcc matters
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  7. Here's mediainfo on one of the uncompressed files
    Image
    [Attachment 62064 - Click to enlarge]


    Trying to use avidemux, the video doesn't play right - pretty screen of random colors.

    Vegas thinks the fps is 23.976. Vegas only lets me set playback speed up to 3 decimal places, so my only options are .750 or .751, either way the frames drift from the project's frames. So that option is out.

    Yes - patching the file - hopefully with the media info we can come up with the best method. I'd rather not have to do a conversion from one format to another, anything that would add a digital generation to the files, so if it were possible to just patch these files to be 18fps, that would be ideal.
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  8. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Oh well. Twas worth a go. Probably does not like that bitrate. Quite 'severe' for 'uncompressed'.
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  9. For MOV files you can use AMCDX video patcher

    https://mogurenko.com/2021/01/29/amcdx-video-patcher-v0-6-7/


    For "digital generation", if you used uncompressed to uncompressed in the same pixel format, there is no loss.

    You should use mediainfo (view=>text) to see the fourcc code. The "simple" view you pasted omits that information
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  10. I can't find anything identified as "fourcc"

    General
    Complete name : E:\Home Movies - raw files\Super8_Uncomp2\A01-UNCOMP2.mov
    Format : MPEG-4
    Format profile : QuickTime
    Codec ID : qt 2005.03 (qt )
    File size : 8.42 GiB
    Duration : 2 min 31 s
    Overall bit rate : 477 Mb/s
    Encoded date : UTC 2011-08-03 19:34:47
    Tagged date : UTC 2011-08-03 20:05:52
    Writing library : Apple QuickTime
    Media/UUID : B0CCEA69-5024-481E-8425-AE137D1DCE54

    Video
    ID : 1
    Format : YUV
    Codec ID : v210
    Codec ID/Hint : AJA Video Systems Xena
    Duration : 2 min 31 s
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 477 Mb/s
    Width : 1 280 pixels
    Clean aperture width : 1 248 pixels
    Height : 720 pixels
    Clean aperture height : 702 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Clean aperture display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Frame rate mode : Constant
    Frame rate : 23.976 (23976/1000) FPS
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
    Bit depth : 10 bits
    Compression mode : Lossless
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 21.600
    Stream size : 8.42 GiB (100%)
    Language : English
    Encoded date : UTC 2011-08-03 19:34:47
    Tagged date : UTC 2011-08-03 20:05:51
    Color primaries : BT.709
    Transfer characteristics : BT.709
    Matrix coefficients : BT.709

    Other
    ID : 2
    Type : Time code
    Format : QuickTime TC
    Duration : 2 min 31 s
    Frame rate : 23.976 (23976/1000) FPS
    Time code of first frame : 01:00:00:00
    Time code, striped : Yes
    Language : English
    Encoded date : UTC 2011-08-03 20:05:51
    Tagged date : UTC 2011-08-03 20:05:51
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  11. AMCDX fails to open the files "No supported video stream found"
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  12. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Have you actually played one of these 'uncompressed' files in any player. Not just the Vegas preview ?


    That strikes me as being a proprietory codec.
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  13. Can VLC Player play your A01-UNCOMP2.mov?
    Can ffplay.exe play your A01-UNCOMP2.mov?
    Commandline:
    ffplay.exe "full path\A01-UNCOMP2.mov"
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  14. The fourcc is "v210" ; it's just uncompressed 10bit 422 in a packed configuration

    In AMCDX, go to the 2nd tab "metadata editor", open file button . In the Frame Rate area, left click and there should be a drop down menu of options. But now that I look at it, 18 fps is not an option anyways...

    There are some mac tools that can do this , but not many on windows that can do it properly . Mov container is a bit tricky with various atoms and timecode entries



    These 2 options work for sure:

    Another option is to re-wrap (stream copy) to AVI container, then use AVIFrate . "AVI" is really a windows specific container and there are utilities that can handle it

    Or AssumeFPS(18) in avisynth, then encode to v210 again. No quality loss. You can choose MOV or AVI container (e.g. in vdub2)
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  15. The files play fine in VLC.

    I did have to install a provided codec for anything to use the files - Blackmagic_Desktop_Video_Windows_8.2. But once I installed that, the files play in VLC and import into Sony Vegas fine, except for the whole being set to 24fps instead of 18.
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  16. I do have access to a few macs if you want to give a mac based solution.
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  17. Originally Posted by armyofquad View Post
    I can't find anything identified as "fourcc"
    Code:
    Codec ID                                 : v210
    https://www.fourcc.org/yuv.php
    https://www.fourcc.org/pixel-format/yuv-v210/
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  18. I'm not up to date on current mac tools, there used to be one called Dumpster, but I can't find a download anymore.

    https://pcloadletter.co.uk/tag/dumpster/
    https://developer.apple.com/quicktime/quicktimeintro/tools/

    It's tricky for MOV, because there are a bunch of atoms that need to be edited
    https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform-software-showcase/146035-qt-frame-rate-change-pl...ml#post1030877

    It might be less compatible in some programs if you miss some entries or don't do it properly
    https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/high-definition-video-editing-solutions/472820-changing-f...-mov-file.html


    But if you re-encode it to v210, it's certain to work and no quality loss
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  19. This seems to work in vegas too. It's just stream copying and changing the timescale . I don't know if all atoms are written ok, but it seems to work in a few programs, framecount is correct . Quicktime movie inspector says "18.00 fps" so it's probably ok everywhere

    Code:
    ffmpeg -i input.mov -c copy -video_track_timescale 18 output.mov
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  20. Ok, cool - that gives me a method to create a version of the files that are set to the correct framerate for the source material. And it's playable in VLC. Looks like I can create a viewable set of uncompressed files now. Thanks.
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  21. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    This is purely theorycal not sure if it is feasible so don't beat me over it, 60p or 60 frames a second will make each frame repeat 3 times and every 3rd frame repeat 4 times, Meaning that out of the 18 frames: 1st frame 3 times + 2nd frame 3 times + 3rd frame 4 times (3+3+4=10) and so on 6 times a second which equals to 60 frames a second. but not sure if it's doable. It is essentially a conventional pulldown but with higher frame count for less flicker.
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  22. Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    This is purely theorycal not sure if it is feasible so don't beat me over it, 60p or 60 frames a second will make each frame repeat 3 times and every 3rd frame repeat 4 times, Meaning that out of the 18 frames: 1st frame 3 times + 2nd frame 3 times + 3rd frame 4 times (3+3+4=10) and so on 6 times a second which equals to 60 frames a second. but not sure if it's doable. It is essentially a conventional pulldown but with higher frame count for less flicker.
    That's how frame rate conversions are normally done when increasing rates. Sometimes with field/frame blending. For interlaced video you then pull fields down out of the 60p frames.
    Last edited by jagabo; 29th Nov 2021 at 20:14.
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  23. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Essentially but in the progressive domain, Is there a script to achieve just that? I mean 18p to 60p assuming the resolution is 1440x1080 4:3 lossless AVI.
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  24. Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Essentially but in the progressive domain, Is there a script to achieve just that? I mean 18p to 60p assuming the resolution is 1440x1080 4:3 lossless AVI.
    ChangeFPS. I'm assuming you want 60/1 . If you want "59.94" (or 60000/1001) , use ChangeFPS(60000,1001)

    Code:
    #18FPS source
    ChangeFPS(60)
    There is usually no reason to do this; if you view 18FPS on a 60Hz display you get exactly that same pattern in terms of frame display time (equivalent duplicate frames) without actually having to encode duplicate frames (less bandwidth; 60FPS will require 3.333x more when using uncompressed)
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  25. Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Essentially but in the progressive domain, Is there a script to achieve just that? I mean 18p to 60p assuming the resolution is 1440x1080 4:3 lossless AVI.
    In AviSynth:
    Code:
    ChangeFPS(60)
    If you want frame blending:
    Code:
    ConvertFPS(60)
    If you want interlaced you probably want NTSC frame rate:

    Code:
    ChangeFPS(60000, 1001) # or ConvertFPS(60000, 1001), both give 59.94 fps
    AssumeTFF()
    SeparateFields()
    SelectEvery(4,0,3)
    Weave()
    # output is 29.97i
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  26. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Thank you guys, Good to know and I hope the OP finds it informative as well.
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  27. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Essentially but in the progressive domain, Is there a script to achieve just that? I mean 18p to 60p assuming the resolution is 1440x1080 4:3 lossless AVI.
    ChangeFPS. I'm assuming you want 60/1 . If you want "59.94" (or 60000/1001) , use ChangeFPS(60000,1001)

    Code:
    #18FPS source
    ChangeFPS(60)
    There is usually no reason to do this; if you view 18FPS on a 60Hz display you get exactly that same pattern in terms of frame display time (equivalent duplicate frames) without actually having to encode duplicate frames (less bandwidth; 60FPS will require 3.333x more when using uncompressed)
    Agreed. But for those who don't know this, there are some cases where it's necessary. Making a 1280x720 Blu-ray disc for example. 18 fps isn't a legal frame rate for Blu-ray.
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