Is this VHS *not* interlaced?

[John2583]

I just came across a VHS of my high school video yearbook from 1999. So it's an edited video that looks like it was duplicated professionally (labels on the tape are computer printed).

I captured it but when I go to deinterlace by doubling the frame rate and interpolating, it doesn't make it look any smoother. When I look closer, the images in the interpolated frames don't change position much. When I look at the original capture at a part with lots of motion I don't see any combing. So I guess this was exported by the video editor without interleaving? There is no benefit to deinterlacing this and doubling the frame rate, is there?

[jagabo]

The frames are progressive.

[lordsmurf]

How was it captured?
Hardware, software, exact settings.

[dellsam34]

That transfer is horrible, I would suggest have someone with the right gear transfer this tape for you if it is really that important to you. Unless those artifacts are in the original tape, I do see very bad line timing, chroma stains, chroma interference stripes running down every 90 lines or so. Like Jagabo said frames are interlaced in the VHS tape unless you have some weird settings when you captured the tape.

[nogginvid]

I just came across a VHS of my high school video yearbook from 1999. So it's an edited video that looks like it was duplicated professionally (labels on the tape are computer printed).

I captured it but when I go to deinterlace by doubling the frame rate and interpolating, it doesn't make it look any smoother. When I look closer, the images in the interpolated frames don't change position much. When I look at the original capture at a part with lots of motion I don't see any combing. So I guess this was exported by the video editor without interleaving? There is no benefit to deinterlacing this and doubling the frame rate, is there?

How has that .avi file been created? What's been the path from VHS to File? Is it that path you are questioning - or is it whether the original VHS cassette you have contains video with no motion between fields in each frame (i.e. it's been mastered from a 29.97fps progressive file?). Some early PC-based editing systems were not the greatest at handling interlace - particularly if they were sold for off-line use (i.e. not for mastering but just for taking edit decisions that were then used to go back to edit tapes in quality)

[lordsmurf]

"not the greatest at handling interlace" = horrible.

Let's not be generous with our words.

[John2583]

Sorry y'all, I didn't see all these replies until now. I got the answer I needed.

It went through a Sony VCR -> Dazzle DVC100 > virtualdub2. I have done captures with the same setup/settings with VHS-C home videos and they are fine. I think it was the VHS itself that was bad.

You can see the whole video and a pic of the VHS here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1mM2EWyvc

I can provide more info tomorrow. Gotta go to sleep now though.

[dellsam34]

What's your vdub settings?

[oln]

Some early PC-based editing systems were not the greatest at handling interlace - particularly if they were sold for off-line use (i.e. not for mastering but just for taking edit decisions that were then used to go back to edit tapes in quality)

Yeah this could have been the case, maybe it was digitized via some ancient computer system, edited and saved as progressive scan and then exported to tape again for handing out. It's for sure been through some sort of editing system at least, and old budget setups weren't always great. Given that, it's very possible that at least some of the artifacts like dropouts and horrible color are baked into the tape, especially if other tapes don't have the same degree of issues, though how much is hard to tell. The DVC-100 and related is not the absolute worst at handling video direct from a VCR compared to many other capture cards, though it's not going to stabilize wiggle well and handle very bad sections still.

The sound sounds like it's been through some low bit depth digital conversion though that may just be for the added music rather than the original audio from the recordings so that's another sign of a low end editing system.

[John2583]

This is the question I was trying to get an answer for:

"or is it whether the original VHS cassette you have contains video with no motion between fields in each frame (i.e. it's been mastered from a 29.97fps progressive file?)."

And it was confirmed that it is progressive, not interlaced.

I captured the original clip on my laptop as I was out of town but now I'm back home and I wanted to show you two different tapes with the exact same settings, so I recaptured the same part of that high school video yearbook plus a different part and I also captured a VHS-C tape home video that I think shows the quality with these settings can be acceptable (test.avi and test2.avi).

I normally deinterlace and double the frame rate of the home videos but I didn't this time since I wanted to compare apples to apples.

Settings:

Sony SLV-688HF composite out
Dazzle DVC100 (driver 2020-10-22) (still buggy on Win10. Inserts null frame every 5 secs but otherwise okay)
VirtualDub2 build 44015 Dec 2019
Capture filter: NTSC_M
Capture pin: 29.970, YUY2, 720x480
Compression: UTvideo YUV422 BT.601 VCM
timing settings:

[Attachment 62071 - Click to enlarge]

EDIT: I also know one of the guys who worked on the video yearbook and he said this when I asked him what he edited it on:



"I don't remember. It was an old very slow Mac that used an old analog piece to move from frame to frame."

[John2583]

[QUOTE=oln;2638696]

The DVC-100 and related is not the absolute worst at handling video direct from a VCR compared to many other capture cards.

Is the Hauppague USB-Live2 okay direct from VCR if the tapes are in good condition? Someone asked me for a recommendation to convert VHS and I told him about the Win10 driver issue with the DVC-100 and recommended the Hauppague instead.

[oln]

Unless they've changed the hardware it's worse afaik, more get more horizontal wiggle and frame dropouts. It is better supported in win10 though yeah, so fine for stable sources. You can look into one of the countless threads about using a panasonic dvd-recorder between the capture card and vcr for stabilization if you want to improve things on a budget.

[John2583]

Unless they've changed the hardware it's worse afaik, more get more horizontal wiggle and frame dropouts. It is better supported in win10 though yeah, so fine for stable sources. You can look into one of the countless threads about using a panasonic dvd-recorder between the capture card and vcr for stabilization if you want to improve things on a budget.

Thank you.

[Brad]

I also captured a VHS-C tape home video that I think shows the quality with these settings can be acceptable (test.avi and test2.avi).[...]
Sony SLV-688HF composite out
Dazzle DVC100 (driver 2020-10-22) (still buggy on Win10. Inserts null frame every 5 secs but otherwise okay)

I wouldn't consider test/test2 acceptable. Not criticizing you, just letting you know that you can do better.

The inserted frames occur precisely every 128 frames (~4.3 sec) and are followed by 1 good frame and then a dropped (missing) frame. So there are two motion stutters each time, and it looks worse when double-rate deinterlaced because the fields end up jumping back and forward in time when there is an insert. Having said that, the camera is shaky enough in these clips that you may not notice.

Your brightness and contrast are both set too high. The floor has been raised without recovering any dark values, and you're hitting the ceiling. The darkest pixel in each video is Y=24 and you're routinely brickwalling whites at 255. The goal is 16-235.


[Attachment 62073 - Click to enlarge]

Also, as stated in the other thread:

The Dazzle should need a lineTBC correction as well, to be fed with a clean signal.

test.avi starts out okay, as far as line stability. Not perfect; reasonable.

[Attachment 62074 - Click to enlarge]

But toward the end, when the camera is presumably getting bumped more, it gets really wavy / ripply. (Animated GIF)

[Attachment 62075 - Click to enlarge]

With (proper) line TBC, the black borders at the edges of the image should be perfectly straight throughout, and those tree trunks would be straight. There are also some lines in the center of this image with incorrect chroma (green tint). Line TBC should help with this too.

[John2583]

Thanks for your analysis and gifs/etc.

Yeah the null frames every ~4.3 seconds are not acceptable but I can't do anything about that currently. It's a Win10 driver issue. I meant other than that. But I didn't think about the brightness and contrast. Does that need to be corrected on the VCR or can I do it in the video proc amp or some other setting in VirtualDub?

Not sure I will invest in a TBC but perhaps. I believe a DVD recorder can provide that functionality and isn't too expensive.

Is it possible to fix the noise in the bottom of this clip (tim_alex_julie.avi)? I suppose the waviness in the top of the frame will be fixed by using a TBC?

[Brad]

I didn't think about the brightness and contrast. Does that need to be corrected on the VCR or can I do it in the video proc amp or some other setting in VirtualDub?

If VDub's Video -> Levels menu works with your capture device, use that. It's a hook to the driver's proc amp controls, with the advantage that the preview isn't hidden when it's opened. sanlyn's post on DFAQ has good explanations of Histogram, Levels, and Cropping. (VDub's Histogram is only useful if you temporarily crop the borders, otherwise it will mislead you. Unfortunately it's really easy to forget to turn the crop off when you actually capture.)

Not sure I will invest in a TBC but perhaps. I believe a DVD recorder can provide that functionality and isn't too expensive.

Line TBC = DVD recorder passthrough or one of the high-end S-VHS VCRs. Generally speaking, the boxes sold as TBCs only really do "frame TBC".

Is it possible to fix the noise in the bottom of this clip (tim_alex_julie.avi)? I suppose the waviness in the top of the frame will be fixed by using a TBC?

DVD recorder passthrough will probably make the top look better, but the tracking noise at the bottom can only be fixed at the VCR playback level. If manual tracking doesn't fix it, and assuming the tape itself isn't visibly physically damaged, the recording was probably made with a misaligned camcorder. You'd need to either misalign a VCR to match it, or send it off to a transfer service willing to misalign their own equipment.

[John2583]

Thank you very much for this detailed reply.