Capturing RGB output from DVD/VCR combo

[Hackerpcs]

I have an LG V280N DVD player/VCR combo and I want to capture MESECAM tapes from it (Greek TV used MESECAM till 1993). I can capture normally with my ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB the composite output but I wondered if I can get better quality picture from it by utilizing its SCART RGB output.
I also have a JVC S-VHS HR-7600EK VCR that can play PAL nicely but because it's not the French HR-7600 MS model it doesn't play MESECAM, only black and white.
I've tried S-Video via SCART that I use for the JVC but as expected only black and white, the output is RGB not S-Video

I haven't got any experience on RGB capturing, not even what cable does it use to connect to the capture card, what capture card to look for etc, I only seen that some older retro consoles like SNES use RGB

[dellsam34]

I don't think VHS is output as RGB inside the VHS/DVD player, You can only get composite (CVBS) or S-Video (YC). Not sure though.

Edit: Looking up the manual it does say RGB output for VCR, Interesting. Look for a game capture device.

Here is a nice read:
http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2019/02/ideal-analog-retro-video-capture-with.html

[Hackerpcs]

According to its manual the VCR does indeed output RGB



and doesn't S-video from scart being black and white mean that it does output RGB?

[DB83]

Most combis will only send s-video from the dvd side RGB or not.


But if you have Mesecam recordings you are basically out of luck, hence the B&W picture, unless the vcr can internally convert to PAL.

[Hackerpcs]

Most combis will only send s-video from the dvd side RGB or not.


But if you have Mesecam recordings you are basically out of luck, hence the B&W picture, unless the vcr can internally convert to PAL.

But I do see black and white picture from the VHS from S-Video SCART so the RGB output must be working, if it didn't output RGB from VCR at all and manual was wrong I think I wouldn't get a picture at all

[Skiller]

But I do see black and white picture from the VHS from S-Video SCART so the RGB output must be working, if it didn't output RGB from VCR at all and manual was wrong I think I wouldn't get a picture at all

No, you would get a picture anyway because RGB via Scart uses Composite video for sync. That means with Scart the RGB part is only optional. If RGB signals are there, it is in addition to Composite. In case the receiving device has no RGB capabilities, it will quietly fall back to Composite without any notice.

The black and white picture is because MESECAM tapes need to be color-converted to PAL by the VCR.

[Hackerpcs]

The black and white picture is because MESECAM tapes need to be color-converted to PAL by the VCR.

I get black and white also on PAL tapes. What I mean I get black and white is that with a SCART to S-video converter that I use on the JVC and works for PAL,



if I connect it to the LG deck I get black and white on the same PAL tapes that work normally on the PAL only JVC S-VHS

[Skiller]

That is a passive adapter, it does not convert signals! It only adapts the signal to different connectors.

You need to enable S-Video output via Scart on the VCR.


Edit: JVC S-VHS machines often have a MESECAM –> PAL option somewhere in the setup menus.

[Hackerpcs]

That is a passive adapter, it does not convert signals! It only adapts the signal to different connectors.

You need to enable S-Video output via Scart on the VCR (if it is capable of that).

I know, that's the whole point of the topic, the LG DVD/VCR doesn't support S-video output for its VCR part (manual page above), only Composite and RGB. What I'm saying is that because I get black and white with S-video from that SCART adapter but black and white, it should confirm that RGB does indeed being outputted because I've read that the S-video use the same SCART pins as the RGB signal
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/271073-only-black-white-from-S-Video#post1624545
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/291067-Problem-with-S-Video-only-getting-black-whi...e!#post1767600

[dellsam34]

You will need to know what type of RGB signal being output, Resolution, Progressive or interlaced, Chroma subsampling and frame rate. This insures getting the right capture device, Low resolution retro gaming devices and HD/4K 4:4:4 modern video game captures may not work properly with your DVD player.

[dellsam34]

Edit: JVC S-VHS machines often have a MESECAM –> PAL option somewhere in the setup menus.

He will be better off with RGB out since no conversion needed during playback, That's the whole reason for using RGB.

[Skiller]

I get your point now. So let's analyze on that thoroughly.

(You can read up the Scart pinout on Wikipedia for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART)

[Looking at the female Scart connector at the back]

Composite out: Pin 20
S-Video Luma out: Pin 20
S-Video Chroma out: Pin 15
RGB R (out): Pin 15
RGB G (out): Pin 11
RGB B (out): Pin 7

Any device you connect to using an S-Video cable expects S-Video, and your Scart to S-Video adapter takes whatever signals there are on Pins 20 and 15, right?

So if there really is RGB (+ Composite for sync, as usual) instead of just Composite, we would get: exactly the same result – a black and white picture (RGB R is not a chrominance signal, it would not show at all). Thus, this does not prove it.

You will need to know what type of RGB signal being output, Resolution, Progressive or interlaced, Chroma subsampling and frame rate.

If there is RGB, it would be standard 15 KHz RGB (interlaced).

[oln]

S-Video over Scart uses the same pin for Y as the composite signal uses if it's set to composite out, and C shares pins with one of the RGB channels. A black and white signal (with the chroma signal on it which looks like dots) from a scart->s-video adapter just means that it is at least outputting composite. RGB out on most VCRs is for pass-through from the scart input only (and on combo decks the DVD side). Pretty much the only VCRs that have actual RGB out from the VCR side are some models with a built-in DVD-recorder that sends everything through an internal digitizer and then to all outputs (e.g the DVD-Recorder/VCR combos LG made, which are meh anyhow.).

here wasn't much point in adding extra cost to a VCR by putting in a composite->RGB converter when any TV could do that fine anyhow. I have seen some SVHS VCR manuals mention external RGB converter boxes for S-Video -> RGB for TVs without S-VIdeo, but I've never seen that included inside the VCRs itself. There were also a few pro/broadcast SVHS decks that featured optional YPbPR output for interfacing with Betacam gear (e.g Sony SVO-5800) but again that's a rarity.

If you want something that can deal fine with SECAM input, you can put in a Panasonic (at least 2005 or newer models, not sure about the old ones) or newer Sony/Pioneer dvd-recorder between vcr and capture card, those can accept SECAM and output PAL, component, RGB or even HDMI, and will stabilize the video pretty well too.

[Skiller]

He will be better off with RGB out since no conversion needed during playback, That's the whole reason for using RGB.

Of course there is a conversion if RGB is used. There is no native RGB on tapes.
The most native connection available is S-Video using whatever color modulation is used on the tape (PAL/NTSC/MESECAM/SECAM) and let the capture device decode it to digital YUV.

[dellsam34]

There wasn't much point in adding extra cost to a VCR by putting in a composite->RGB converter when any TV could do that fine anyhow. I have seen some SVHS VCR manuals mention external RGB converter boxes for S-Video -> RGB for TVs without S-VIdeo, but I've never seen that included inside the VCRs itself. There were also a few pro/broadcast SVHS decks that featured optional YPbPR output for interfacing with Betacam gear (e.g Sony SVO-5800) but again that's a rarity.

How can you be sure that the player is converting to RGB from composite? Did you look at the schematic diagrams?

If you want something that can deal fine with SECAM input, you can put in a Panasonic (at least 2005 or newer models, not sure about the old ones) or newer Sony/Pioneer dvd-recorder between vcr and capture card, those can accept SECAM and output PAL, component, RGB or even HDMI, and will stabilize the video pretty well too.

The OP is converting MESECAM camcorder tapes/home recording, not SECAM pre-recorded tapes.

[dellsam34]

Of course there is a conversion if RGB is used. There is no native RGB on tapes.
The most native connection available is S-Video using whatever color modulation is used on the tape (PAL/NTSC/MESECAM/SECAM) and let the capture device decode it to digital YUV.

But converting from the tape's chroma under to RGB is less damaging than converting to PAL, Assuming the VHS/DVD combo has an internal processor for this purpose.

[oln]

The OP is converting MESECAM camcorder tapes/home recording, not SECAM pre-recorded tapes.

The output format from playing back MESECAM is still the same SECAM format as "true"/french SECAM tapes. The difference between "true" SECAM tapes and MESECAM is how the signal is stored on tape. Standard/French SECAM VHS uses frequency division + some filtering to store the SECAM color signals at a lower frequency on tape, while MESECAM is basically putting SECAM through the PAL VCR recording process with some steps disabled. MESECAM was a cheap workaround to adapt PAL circuitry to record SECAM tapes rather than needing separate SECAM circuitry. (There were some fancier Secam-area VCRs, particularly SVHS VCRs, that featured full SECAM <-> PAL converters however.)

[dellsam34]

From the attached service manual I gathered some information, It uses the SANYO LA71750EM chip for video head processing, From there the signal is routed to BH7868FS chip for RGB and composite processing from the native YC signal.

[dellsam34]

The output format from playing back MESECAM is still the same SECAM format as "true"/french SECAM tapes. The difference between "true" SECAM tapes and MESECAM is how the signal is stored on tape. Standard/French SECAM VHS uses frequency division + some filtering to store the SECAM color signals at a lower frequency on tape, while MESECAM is basically putting SECAM through the PAL VCR recording process with some steps disabled. MESECAM was a cheap workaround to adapt PAL circuitry to record SECAM tapes rather than needing separate SECAM circuitry. (There were some fancier Secam-area VCRs, particularly SVHS VCRs, that featured full SECAM <-> PAL converters however.)

If the tape was SECAM we wouldn't be having all this talk, wouldn't we? I know what is MESECAM.

[Hackerpcs]

The back of the DVD/VCR unit



Some screenshots:

1992 MESECAM tape:

Composite out (seen above, same result if I use the scart output)



S-video from SCART (either of the SCART ports)



JVC S-VHS native S-video, B/W as expected as it's an only PAL deck (no option for SECAM in the menus):





1995 PAL tape:

Composite:



S-video from SCART:




JVC S-VHS native S-video:

[Hackerpcs]

From the attached service manual I gathered some information, It uses the SANYO LA71750EM chip for video head processing, From there the signal is routed to BH7868FS chip for RGB and composite processing from the native YC signal.

So... would capturing RGB instead of composite produce a better result or the same as plain composite?

[dellsam34]

Non until you provide some samples from the RGB output, I cannot say for sure.

[Hackerpcs]

As you said

You will need to know what type of RGB signal being output, Resolution, Progressive or interlaced, Chroma subsampling and frame rate. This insures getting the right capture device, Low resolution retro gaming devices and HD/4K 4:4:4 modern video game captures may not work properly with your DVD player.

I don't know anything about its RGB output and capturing RGB in general (what capture card to consider buying, what cables, etc), that's why I made the topic

[oln]

Whether an RGB capture would be better would depend on the device converting from composite to RGB so that's hard to say (though I still doubt the VCR has anything in it to convert the VCR output to RGB, in any case my suggestion of dvd-recorder still stands as it will stabilize the image much better than the capture card alone regardless of whether it's a PAL or SECAM variant). Is the capture card set to SECAM or PAL on the MESECAM image?

From there the signal is routed to BH7868FS chip for RGB and composite processing from the native YC signal.

That chip seems to just be amplification/buffering/switching, not converting between signals. If it does actually have RGB out for the VCR part, which I doubt, it will be happening elsewhere, though I can't see that anywhere in the schematics. I could be wrong suspect the RGB note under VCR in the manual is just the ability to pass RGB from the scart input to the other scart output. I suppose you could always check the RGB pins with a multimeter if you have access to one to see if there is any signal there if you want to be ultra sure.

[DB83]

Reading the manual, the only references I see about RGB (even over scart) is for dvd playback.


Surely you can test this by connecting over scart to a tv. The connector would have to have all pins wired.

[Hackerpcs]

Is the capture card set to SECAM or PAL on the MESECAM image?

The default from the card, PAL_B

[dellsam34]

It lists outputs for both DVD and VCR separately:

[oln]

Is the capture card set to SECAM or PAL on the MESECAM image?

The default from the card, PAL_B

Does the color on the MESECAM capture look better if the capture card is set to SECAM (or MESECAM or similar if there is an option for it)? Setting the capture card SECAM should be the right option for capturing MESECAM unless the tape is actually PAL wrongly recorded in MESECAM mode which can happen.

[DB83]

It lists outputs for both DVD and VCR separately:

Oops. My bad


Maybe the OP should elaborate on the capture card setting even if the vcr output is set to Mesecam. Since that is not a broadcast standard, and despite comments to the contrary, I would expect the capture card to be set to PAL. (Unless this has already been covered and I am just having another senior moment)

[dellsam34]

Capturing RGB has no standard, as the player has already decoded the chroma from whatever source is (YC, CVBS) and whatever standard is (PAL, SECAM, MESECAM) to RGB.