Panasonic DVD recorder passthrough settings (DMR-ES10, DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25)

[tugatomsk]

EDIT2:
Does getting a S-VHS with included TBC mean intermediary devices like the Panasonic ES10 with TBC are no longer necessary?

In my opinion, no, one should still use something like the ES10.

Actually, I would compare captures to determine whether the internal line-TBC of an S-VHS machine brings any benefit with the ES10 in the chain. The is a good chance you may find that disabling the internal TBC of the VCR actually yields a better quality capture.
In my case, I prefer to disable the TBC of my Panasonic NV-FS 200 S-VHS when I'm using a Panasonic DVD-recorder in the chain.

Which Panasonic European model(s) are almost as good as the ES10?

While the PAL ES10 is unique in it's very strong line-straightening abilities, any other Panasonic DVD or DVD/HDD-recorder is also good and recommendable. One downside to the ES10 may be that it is more prone to lose vertical sync than the other models (picture tends to roll upwards or downwards upon a tape glitch).

That is intriguing. Considering that none of my VHS tapes are S-VHS, I now wonder if getting a S-VHS VCR is actually worth.

Are there any improvements in image quality (with the TBC off) compared to a standard VHS VCR?

[Skiller]

Are there any improvements in image quality (with the TBC off) compared to a standard VHS VCR?

Yes. For one, S-VHS machines allow you to switch off the so called "VHS HQ" circuitry that pretty much every VCR built after the 80's has. Look at your VCR, it may even say "VHS HQ" on the front somewhere.
VHS HQ is supposed to improve image quality (well, maybe it did – in the 80's) but it pales in comparison to what can be done with a true raw capture and some filtering on a computer. VHS HQ applies a horizontal blur (lowpass filter) to the luma channel to reduce noise, followed by a very basic horizontal sharpening to create artificial sharpness (results in halos). It averages chroma lines to reduce chroma noise, thereby making the chroma more blurry on the vertical axis as well. It's a very simple and destructive filter.

The setting on S-VHS machines to turn this circuitry off is most often called "Edit", or "Tape Dub". In my opinion this setting is worth getting an S-VHS machine if you want to have a quality that is better than the original tape played on a plain VCR.


Then there is S-Video of course. While there is no huge improvement with standard VHS, it doesn't introduce any new composite artifacts on top of existing ones which is good (with NTSC and 3D comb filters, this may be a different story though).

[jwillis84]

Such and old thread.

[oln]

Being able to enable/disable VHS HQ stuff isn't strictly a SVHS vs not SVHS thing although it's a feature on a lot of SVHS decks. Some standard VHS deck also does feature an EDIT mode (e.g late 90s and on JVCs, late 90s/early 2000s european Sonys and some of the early 90s Panasonics.), and afaik later PAL panasonic consumer SVHS decks newer than the NV-HS950 lacks an explicit edit mode.

[Skiller]

Thanks for the hint, oln. I knew there are some standard VHS decks that have the Edit option but I didn't realize there are more than just a couple that do.

[lollo]

Does getting a S-VHS with included TBC mean intermediary devices like the Panasonic ES10 with TBC are no longer necessary?

My approach is slightly different with respect to Skiller. My first choice is to use the lineTBC of the S-VHS VCR; if this is not enough to correct the image instability (rare in my case, but I work with tapes in good conditions), I then disable the lineTBC and use a Panasonic ES10 or ES15 instead, capable of stronger corrections.

The reason is that the usage of an additional device introduces an unnecessary A/D/A conversion (*) and the Panasonic devices suffer of problem with high Y levels (at least the PAL machines). I choose then the lesser of evils, but, as always, there is not a generic rule, so you should experiment with your own material what is better.
(*) when capturing from the HDMI output, if available, this does not happen, but that's another story.

Concerning the VCR, it is the most important element in the capture chain, so it should be a high end S-VHS with line TBC (as second option a good VCR with a Panasonic DVD-R passthrough to benefit of its lineTBC correction and its Y/C output).

VHS HQ is supposed to improve image quality (well, maybe it did – in the 80's) but it pales in comparison to what can be done with a true raw capture and some filtering on a computer. VHS HQ applies a horizontal blur (lowpass filter) to the luma channel to reduce noise, followed by a very basic horizontal sharpening to create artificial sharpness (results in halos). It averages chroma lines to reduce chroma noise, thereby making the chroma more blurry on the vertical axis as well. It's a very simple and destructive filter.

I do not know about VHS HQ, but on high end JVC S-VHS machines the T.B.C/N.R. (some of the noise reduction circuits are connected with the lineTBC and cannot be disabled without turnig off both), with the "standard" mode and the D3R optios are excellent, and sometimes the edit mode is providing a worse image. Again, this is not a generic rule, and you should esperiment yourself what is best, because it really depends on the tape and on the video, because for highly noisy source the noise reduction of the VCR is not very effective, and the sharpening may enhace the noise itself. Some example here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/10875-recommendations-jvc-vcr.html

On the other hand, the usage of a non edit mode enhace a ghosting at scene change. Once more, this is dependent on the source and may be not noticeable or more evident. Some example here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401232-JVC-S-VHS-settings-for-capture-%28again%29

In general, when I plan no restoration at all or a limited filtering I tend to prefer non edit mode, while when the source requires deep noise reduction and intensive filtering I tend to prefer edit mode. Again, no general rule, it is really machine/tape/video dependent, and you should find for each source the best by experimenting a lot.

Edit: to further decrease the ghosting at scene change, the TBC/N.R can be turned off, so in this scenario, the approach of using the Panasonic instead of the VCR lineTBC may be a valid option. In addition, also consider that as Skiller properly said, there may be some vertical jitter because fields misalignement caused by the lineTBC of the VCR, but also from the Panasonic, which cannot be fixed during capturing but only in post-processing

[tugatomsk]

I guess I'll have to ponder about the S-VHS VCR, it's a lot of money...

Anyway, since the TBC of the Panasonic is also used to make sure the frames of the video capture (I use Virtualdub) are "solid" and thatt there's no longer audio resampling required (speeding or decelerating), right?

[lollo]

Anyway, since the TBC of the Panasonic is also used to make sure the frames of the video capture (I use Virtualdub) are "solid" and thatt there's no longer audio resampling required (speeding or decelerating), right?

Yes for video, for audio is trasparent.

If you loose frames while capturing for whatever reason (bad tape, ...), or if you experience other problems, the audio can be out of synch. Only a frameTBC can help in solving that (and cleaning the video signal in a proper way).

[tugatomsk]

Anyway, since the TBC of the Panasonic is also used to make sure the frames of the video capture (I use Virtualdub) are "solid" and thatt there's no longer audio resampling required (speeding or decelerating), right?

Yes for video, for audio is trasparent.

If you loose frames while capturing for whatever reason (bad tape, ...), or if you experience other problems, the audio can be out of synch. Only a frameTBC can help in solving that (and cleaning the video signal in a proper way).

My case is inserted frames when the video signal becomes very weak (I have a few tapes where the video signal randomly changes).

So the TBC of the Panasonic ES10 is not a frame TBC and it would not work as I intend?

[lollo]

So the TBC of the Panasonic ES10 is not a frame TBC and it would not work in my case?

From a technical point of view ES10 is not exactly a full frameTBC. It may fix or not frame synch/loss of signals/weak signals, it depends on specific case. Difficult to assess in general.

[tugatomsk]

So the TBC of the Panasonic ES10 is not a frame TBC and it would not work in my case?

From a technical point of view ES10 is not exactly a full frameTBC. It may fix or not frame synch/loss of signals/weak signals, it depends on specific case. Difficult to assess in general.

That's really disappointing.

I'm guessing the TBC from S-VHS is also not frameTBC?

Anyway, I'll post three examples of some of my video captures in order to show you what we're dealing with.

[lollo]

I'm guessing the TBC from S-VHS is also not frameTBC?

That's a lineTBC only, dealing with intraframe/line synch cleaning.

Anyway, I'll post three examples of some of my video captures in order to show you what we're dealing with.

Sure. Users skiller and oln will also help you on your specific issues, I trust a lot their expertize!

[tugatomsk]

So the TBC of the Panasonic ES10 is not a frame TBC and it would not work in my case?

From a technical point of view ES10 is not exactly a full frameTBC. It may fix or not frame synch/loss of signals/weak signals, it depends on specific case. Difficult to assess in general.

That's really disappointing.

I'm guessing the TBC from S-VHS is also not frameTBC?

Anyway, I'll post three examples of some of my video captures in order to show you what we're dealing with.

All of these recordings were made using Virtualdub 1.9.11 on Windows XP using a Pinnacle PCTV PMC 800e USB capture device using S-Video and composite audio. The lossless codecs used were Huffyuv or Lagarith.

The VHS VCR is a Sony SLV-SX700 and the DVR for passthrough is a Sony RDR-HX710 without TBC (That I know of) with S-Video out. The VCR and the DVR are connected by SCART cable.

The computer features an Intel i3-2100 with Intel HD integrated graphics.


I must point out that there is a substantial upgrade in overall image quality, lack of artifacts and image stability simply by using the S-Video out cable on the Sony DVR as a passthrough.


Here are the excerpts:

Example 1 - Very poor signal (SONY SLV-SX700 through Sony RDR-HX710 and then to device) - S-Video
https://mega.nz/file/fcBzXRRb#8nqd1bEIFZptjZkEscuoYQim4iR91Ok9GK18GpK8loo

Example 2 - Very poor signal (Sony SLV-SX700 directly to PCTV PMC 800e device) - COMPOSITE
https://mega.nz/file/TEQVUKrQ#NWkKMohFFLTJLC0uLO-_4KI86hdA0ELAju1iPr3ldhQ

Example 3 - Best Quality Live Recording (SONY SLV-SX700 through Sony RDR-HX710 and then to device) - S-Video
https://mega.nz/file/eUxCXZQA#ZEz6dU0t7W-XqzvxR2-AeV1hd-MV7r4TOax6gAYp33Y

Example 4 - First generation copy (SONY SLV-SX700 through Sony RDR-HX710 and then to device) - S-Video
https://mega.nz/file/iMxFHYYK#YezBlzKcv_5i2nn9rikxFk17RRGrPPiZ3Jwx3YEiDGQ


The reason why I re-recorded the same segment using direct composite video is because my DVR tends to grey out the image whenever it decides the signal is poor enough, so the composite segment would compensate for it. There is no option on the DVR to disable this.

Also, the reason I want to capture such poor quality recordings is purely due to nostalgia. I will capture them no matter what.

[oln]

So the TBC of the Panasonic ES10 is not a frame TBC and it would not work in my case?

From a technical point of view ES10 is not exactly a full frameTBC. It may fix or not frame synch/loss of signals/weak signals, it depends on specific case. Difficult to assess in general.

It kind of depends what one means with a "full frame TBC". The Panasonic (and other dvd recorders for that matter) will buffer frames and output a stable signal, they're not like the tbc in most SVHS vcrs which compensate for wiggle but don't ensure a stable 50/59.94 fields per second output. A standalone TBC unit will usually have more adjust ability (especially the stuff aimed at pro/broadcast use) but is also often older and more limited in other ways like say internal bit depth and decoder quality.

The panasonics do a very good job at it and the video decoder is capable of compensating for a lot of horizontal wiggle and handles bad signals very well otherwise, something most other dvd-recorders don't to nearly the same extent.

[lollo]

Just watching to first 2 videos, I do not think that any device can fix that. A strong lineTBC together with a frameTBC can improve the occasional wiggle and the missing frames, but the overall look is bad because the condition of the tape. Sorry.

In any case wait for suggestions from other users , they may have been working with more devices that I used, so can have good hints

[lollo]

A standalone TBC unit will usually have more adjust ability

I agree, and that is what I meant. I have seen in action the capture of a bad tape recorded from a TV show in a workflow with a JVC HR-7600 and an ES10, with and without a Datavideo TBC and the handling of the bad segments was better with the first workflow.

edit: corrected bad conclusion, I initially wrote the opposite

[tugatomsk]

Just watching to first 2 videos, I do not think that any device can fix that. A strong lineTBC together with a frameTBC can improve the occasional wiggle and the missing frames, but the overall look is bad because the condition of the tape. Sorry.

In any case wait for suggestions from other users , they may have been working with more devices that I used, so can have good hints

The thing is, it's not the tape that is in bad condition; despite its 31 years of age, it's remarkably in good shape! In fact, all of these 4 excerpts come from that very tape (Dragon Ball was recorded in 1996 while Telecinco in 1991).

The poor signal recordings were RF recordings from video signal 30km from the Spanish border (the Telecinco channel) in relation to our holiday rented apartment in Portugal. The Spanish RF signal strength and quality varied according to the atmospheric conditions at each recording, or even during the same recording. On the other hand, there were several occasions where the Spanish RF signal was very good, almost the same as the national Portuguese TV channels.

Anyway, regarding the good recordings, what do you think? Could a lineTBC help improving the overall quality in some way (especially the first-generation copy)?

[lollo]

Anyway, regarding the good recordings, what do you think? Could a lineTBC help improving the overall quality in some way (especially the first-generation copy)?

The captures are not too bad considering the non optimal reception (and then the recording) you mentioned.

An ES10/ES15 can help in straightening the vertical lines, and reduce the occasional wiggling and the occasional flagging, together with a generic intraframe and interframe cleanup, as oln properly said:







One of the main problem is the strong halo, try to reduce/remove any sharpening in the VCR or in the capture card:

[tugatomsk]

Anyway, regarding the good recordings, what do you think? Could a lineTBC help improving the overall quality in some way (especially the first-generation copy)?

The captures are not too bad considering the non optimal reception (and then the recording) you mentioned.

An ES10/ES15 can help in straightening the vertical lines, and reduce the occasional wiggling and the occasional flagging, together with a generic intraframe and interframe cleanup, as oln properly said:


[Attachment 66626 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 66627 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 66629 - Click to enlarge]

One of the main problem is the strong halo, try to reduce/remove any sharpening in the VCR or in the capture card:


[Attachment 66628 - Click to enlarge]

Excellent advice, I didn't notice those artifacts and video deformations.

I guess I'll go with a ES10, then.

[lollo]

I guess I'll go with a ES10, then.

It is a cheaper option than changing your VCR with a high end S-VHS VCR with lineTBC in good shape as well

[tugatomsk]

I guess I'll go with a ES10, then.

It is a cheaper option than changing your VCR with a high end S-VHS VCR with lineTBC in good shape as well

That's true. However, getting a S-VHS in the near future is in my plans. I just don't have the necessary budget at the moment.

[lollo]

getting a S-VHS in the near future is in my plans

Yes, do so when you can. As I said, the VCR is the most important element for a good capture.

[oln]

The SONY SLV-SX700 has a "reality regenerator" sharpening thing (on by default), and menu settings for OPC (auto picture/sharpness adjustment feature) and EDIT in the menus, so you can play around a bit with that to see what settings you prefer. I like these sonys, I've used a deck from the previous lineup which is pretty similar (SLV-SE60) for some of the uploads I got on my 2nd youtube channel, though with a pioneer and a sony dvd-recorder, rather than ES10 in this case and a bunch of post-processing. (The later Pioneer and Sony dvd-recorders are based around the same chipset/setup, and can correct horizontal wiggle decently, though they're not as robust as the panasonics, on the plus side they don't have the issue with blowing out whites that the panasonics can. The older sonys before the RDR-HX_50/RDR-GX_50 like the HX710 are completely different internally and not aware of any of them doing a very good job at this, though even those are usually a step up from the average capture card.)

[tugatomsk]

The SONY SLV-SX700 has a "reality regenerator" sharpening thing (on by default), and menu settings for OPC (auto picture/sharpness adjustment feature) and EDIT in the menus, so you can play around a bit with that to see what settings you prefer. I like these sonys, I've used a deck from the previous lineup which is pretty similar (SLV-SE60) for some of the uploads I got on my 2nd youtube channel, though with a pioneer and a sony dvd-recorder, rather than ES10 in this case and a bunch of post-processing. (The later Pioneer and Sony dvd-recorders are based around the same chipset/setup, and can correct horizontal wiggle decently, though they're not as robust as the panasonics, on the plus side they don't have the issue with blowing out whites that the panasonics can. The older sonys before the RDR-HX_50/RDR-GX_50 like the HX710 are completely different internally and not aware of any of them doing a very good job at this, though even those are usually a step up from the average capture card.)

Sadly, I borrowed this VCR from a friend who lost its remote... So I can't access the menus. I do like the SX700 hifi performance on older hifi tapes of mine, though.

The ES10 blows out whites?... That's a big turn-off for me...

Should I get a Pioneer DVR-440, which apparently doesn't blow out the whites and doesn't grey out the signal when it considers it to be too weak (if this Pioneer has a inbuilt lineTBC like the ES10/15, that is)?
https://www.ebay.es/itm/314009248670

Does the ES15 blow out the whites as much as the ES10?


Now I'm really confused...

[lollo]

Does the ES15 blow out the whites as much as the ES10

My ES15 does. A workaround from the german forum: https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/47744-tipp-digitalisieren-%C...=no#post461112

Be careful because first generation machine suffer from brightness issues on S-Video output (use scart output instead): https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/47572-tutorial-hochwertiges-digitalisieren-...en-und-andere/

[tugatomsk]

Does the ES15 blow out the whites as much as the ES10

My ES15 does. A workaround from the german forum: https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/47744-tipp-digitalisieren-%C...=no#post461112

I can't get that workaround...

Be careful because first generation machine suffer from brightness issues on S-Video output (use scart output instead): https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/47572-tutorial-hochwertiges-digitalisieren-...en-und-andere/

Assuming you're referring to the DVR: something like using a SCART-SVideo adaptor like this? Otherwise I'm stuck because the USB capture drive does not have direct SCART input.
https://coisasuteis.net/en/adapters/112-scart-male-to-s-video-3-rca-female-av-audio-vi...er-for-tv.html

Does that trick also work on the ES10?


And what about that Pioneer DVR 440 H-K that apparently doesn't suffer from white blow out?
Forget it, it doesn't have TBC...

[lollo]

I can't get that workaround...

The idea is to build a potentiometer to reduce the Y level, and then the brightness before capturing: https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/47744-tipp-digitalisieren-%C...=no#post462405

User Alwin (HushPower at digitalfaq), was experimenting this approach recently and posted some results here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12818-ohms-value-potentiometer.html

something like using a SCART-SVideo adaptor like this?

Yes. If the S-Video output of the Panasonic shows the problem, just use its SCART output instead, and the adaptor to feed your card.

[Sharc]

Yes. If the S-Video output of the Panasonic shows the problem, just use its SCART output instead, and the adaptor to feed your card.

Out of curiosity: Is there an attenuator (or other level reducing circuit) between the regular S-Video out of the Pana DVR and the S-Video out of the SCART adaptor? I thought it's just a wire ......

(Also, unless the A/D converter of the capturing device is overdriven (means clipping), one can do level adjustments with the proc-amp settings of the capturing device.)

[lollo]

Out of curiosity: Is there an attenuator (or other level reducing circuit) between the regular S-Video out of the Pana DVR and the S-Video out of the SCART adaptor?

More likely there was some problem with the Y level of the S-Video output in the first versions. Later revisions do not show same problem.

In general, I have always found that the S-Video output of almost any machine is better than the SCART, probably because the internal circuitery and because it is easier to find good S-Video cables than SCART cables or good SCART/S-Video adaptor.

Also, unless the A/D converter of the capturing device is overdriven (means clipping), one can do level adjustments with the proc-amp settings of the capturing device

The procamp of the card acts once the signal is in the digital domain, less effective than an analog circuit before the card, and prone to issues. Remember all the topics we had in the past on the procamp setting results. This for example: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/402267-Adjusting-capture-card-levels-not-sure-if-it-s-right

On the other hand, with the potentiometer approach we are introducing a lossy element in the analog signal path, so it must be done with care.

[tugatomsk]

Out of curiosity: Is there an attenuator (or other level reducing circuit) between the regular S-Video out of the Pana DVR and the S-Video out of the SCART adaptor?

More likely there was some problem with the Y level of the S-Video output in the first versions. Later revisions do not show same problem.

In general, I have always found that the S-Video output of almost any machine is better than the SCART, probably because the internal circuitery and because it is easier to find good S-Video cables than SCART cables or good SCART/S-Video adaptor.

I'm confused. Didn't you say the SCART output of the Panasonic was better at not clipping the whites than the S-Video output?

Also, can that simple adapter really fix the white clipping? I'd be glad if it did.
EDIT: How can I tell it's a good quality one?