Panasonic DVD recorder passthrough settings (DMR-ES10, DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25)

[Eric-jan]

Eric-jan, I did not understand a word of what you wanted to explain. Never mind, Skiller already gave the right indications...

I have the same with you, so that could be it.

[Eric-jan]

It's this one...https://amzn.eu/d/f0CMW8q

Correct, only a male-male s-video cable needs to be added, the switchable SCART cable versions don't have a s-video option most of the time, because of the complex switch it needs to switch also s-video at the same time, this adapter plug you mention here has such a (complexed) switch.

[Skiller]

any cable will be short enough to not get any loss. we're not talking about HDMI 4K here…

I don't think you understand the issue in potential signal degradation with these adapters. If we were talking about HDMI I would not be worried at all because it is digital and lossless. Analog on the contrary is inherently lossy; any junction the signal needs to pass introduces losses and noise. The question is only: how much? Hopefully so little it's not noticable.

Making the signal path as straightforward as possible provides best protection against these things. But whatever floats your boat.

[Eric-jan]

Also, there is no good convention for the naming of the SCART to s-video cables….. s-video uses a mini DIN connector, so it's a mini DIN to SCART or…. SCART to mini DIN cable, does this say if the mini DIN is an input or output ? this isn't correctly used by most people, who sell you this.
most vcr's have already an video input at the front, most one direction adapting SCART cables or plugs are made for connecting a source to a TV, so that's also the wrong direction.
The OP has already the plug adapter, a try with a s-video cable, is an easy option for now. before being scared off by non existing problems that "could" occur.
so for now, it's not needed to buy a very expensive SCART cable, this would be listed as a last resort on the options list.

[Traderbam]

Thanks all. Need to sort some better cables perhaps than the cheap version I have. Right now I'm running some test captures but since I don't have enough cables I'm using SCART from VCR to SCART input on the ES15. If I've got it correctly the best approach I can do is VCR s-video out to s-video in on front panel, then use the SCART out (SCART to s-video cable) into capture card, thus avoiding the problematic s-video out on ES15. I'm not convinced I need this thing for many scenarios but it was going cheap so thought I'd add to the collection should the need arise.

[Sharc]

The OP has already the plug adapter, a try with a s-video cable, is an easy option for now. before being scared off by non existing problems that "could" occur.
so for now, it's not needed to buy a very expensive SCART cable, this would be listed as a last resort on the options list.

Yes. Just be aware of what happens with poorly wired (unscreened) adaptors and poorly screened cables, as shown here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/411872-SCART-to-S-Video-adapter-strange-problems#post2708738
In that example the contaminated Y wire produced a fine pattern of dots (similar to dotcrawl) due to the ripple on the Y signal on the otherwise saturated solid color (i.e. what we would get without the ripple on the Y signal). May only be noticed once you know that the effect exists, and less even so on "natural" VHS captures.

[Skiller]

Thanks Sharc, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

While it may be pretty hard to spot in an actual VHS capture, once I know it is there, I will see it now and then. And it would drive me crazy to the point of wanting to re-capture. Trying to help others not to fall down this rabbit hole is why I'm so into preventative measures rather than follow-up treatments. Imagine in 20 years you are watching some valuable memories you captured off VHS in 2023 and be like "if only I spent those extra 15 bucks on a proper cable/adapter, now it's forever too late to recapture".

[lollo]

+1. Completely agree with Skiller and Sharc

[Eric-jan]

What is known for the DMR-EH49 ? (EC S) it's the PAL/SCART model,(with 160GB HDD) sofar i discovered no VHS-refresh passthrough capabillities, but that could be caused by wrong settings, any upscaling is only at (HDMI) playback i noticed, it has s-video in and output, both component and HDMI video output.
found it at thriftstore, found no defects, works fine with my ES35V remote.
noticed some letterboxed 16:9 recordings on the HDD, i guess it has an analog tuner..
Has somebody have had any experiences with the DMR-EH49 ?
<edit>
I do notice now, that the different aspect ratio/HDMI settings, has different effect on the video component output, the image is different within the 4:3 720x576 image, it's either stretched, or letterboxed.
only could capture a dvd sofar for now, next try will hopefully a vcr on passthrough.
I guess the HDMI output can also upscale to 1920x1080i/p i guess the 16:9 transmissions where super bad because it was upscaled letterbox to 1920x1080….. the 16:9 tv programs where stored in letterbox on the HDD

[Master Tape]

I would very much like to get my hands on a Scart to S-Video cable as the adapter i'm currently using is introducing heavy herringbone noise, so would be nice to have a clearer picture.

Having had a look, there's sellers on ebay selling Monster cable ones (the same as lollo's picture) But they are incorrectly being listed as "S-Video to Scart" as the box says otherwise.

Is this a legit Scart to S-Video cable? The S-Video end says "Out"
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285275068764?

[Sharc]

I would very much like to get my hands on a Scart to S-Video cable as the adapter i'm currently using is introducing heavy herringbone noise, so would be nice to have a clearer picture.

Having had a look, there's sellers on ebay selling Monster cable ones (the same as lollo's picture) But they are incorrectly being listed as "S-Video to Scart" as the box says otherwise.

Is this a legit Scart to S-Video cable? The S-Video end says "Out"
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285275068764?

The cable looks good to me; double screened. Direction OUT is ok (=SCART -> S-video). I would prefer a shorter length (1m), if available.

[Alwyn]

the adapter i'm currently using is introducing heavy herringbone noise

Out of interest, is this the type of adapter you're talking about?


[Attachment 75249 - Click to enlarge]

[Master Tape]

I would very much like to get my hands on a Scart to S-Video cable as the adapter i'm currently using is introducing heavy herringbone noise, so would be nice to have a clearer picture.

Having had a look, there's sellers on ebay selling Monster cable ones (the same as lollo's picture) But they are incorrectly being listed as "S-Video to Scart" as the box says otherwise.

Is this a legit Scart to S-Video cable? The S-Video end says "Out"
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285275068764?

The cable looks good to me; double screened. Direction OUT is ok (=SCART -> S-video). I would prefer a shorter length (1m), if available.

Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately there's no 1m cables available besides the cheapo Aptii brands on Amazon, so this'll have to do.

the adapter i'm currently using is introducing heavy herringbone noise

Out of interest, is this the type of adapter you're talking about?


[Attachment 75249 - Click to enlarge]

Yes exactly like that, only in silver.

[Alwyn]

Thanks MT. I use one of those (in black) but haven't come cross any herringbone issues (yet?).

[Sharc]

Thanks MT. I use one of those (in black) but haven't come cross any herringbone issues (yet?).

The 'herringbones' due to the adapter alone are normally weak and are mainly noticed with highly saturated colors, i.e. where the amplitude of the Chroma signal is high. It gets worse together with poorly screened and unnecessary long cables, and it gets worse with digitizers capturing a wider luma bandwidth (=more picture details). The GV-USB2 has a slightly lower horizontal resolution (lower bandwidth at the expense of a slight loss of sharpness and details) than the USB-live2, so one may notice the "herringbones" less with the GV-USB2 than with the Hauppauge USB-live2. Differences are subtle though.
Of course it also depends on the source material and the tape player. i.e. the bandwidth it delivers for luma and chroma. Best is alwys use a decent cable and avoid unnecessary luma<->chroma crosstalk between the Y and C wires.

[Alwyn]

Thanks Sharc, that's interesting. I'll keep an eye out for it.

[Sharc]

Here an example of what happens with a poor cabling.

The Oscillogram represents one scanline of the luma signal (on the Y wire) of a colorbar. One can see the spillover of the chroma signal (from the C wire) onto the luma. The luma signal looks almost like a composite signal. The undisturbed luma would be a clean staircase without the superimposed waveform from the chroma subcarrier.
The attached video is the capture. You can see a pattern of moving dots caused by the contamination.

[Master Tape]

Thanks MT. I use one of those (in black) but haven't come cross any herringbone issues (yet?).

The 'herringbones' due to the adapter alone are normally weak and are mainly noticed with highly saturated colors, i.e. where the amplitude of the Chroma signal is high. It gets worse together with poorly screened and unnecessary long cables, and it gets worse with digitizers capturing a wider luma bandwidth (=more picture details). The GV-USB2 has a slightly lower horizontal resolution (lower bandwidth at the expense of a slight loss of sharpness and details) than the USB-live2, so one may notice the "herringbones" less with the GV-USB2 than with the Hauppauge USB-live2. Differences are subtle though.
Of course it also depends on the source material and the tape player. i.e. the bandwidth it delivers for luma and chroma. Best is alwys use a decent cable and avoid unnecessary luma<->chroma crosstalk between the Y and C wires.

Probably not heavy, but quite a bit more than you'd get with normal capturing, but yes definitely noticed more in highly saturated colours. The bigger issue i have going through my ES10 is whenever something saturated in purple or violet appears on-screen it causes some sort of colour drop out like this.


[Attachment 75275 - Click to enlarge]

Just hope that it's an issue with the adapter and switching to a cable will eliminate it.

[Sharc]

Out of gamut and clipped colors.
Just turning the saturation way down (and reduce contrast somewhat) makes it look already much better......

Also, check for loose cables / bad plug contacts.

[Eric-jan]

Thanks MT. I use one of those (in black) but haven't come cross any herringbone issues (yet?).

The 'herringbones' due to the adapter alone are normally weak and are mainly noticed with highly saturated colors, i.e. where the amplitude of the Chroma signal is high. It gets worse together with poorly screened and unnecessary long cables, and it gets worse with digitizers capturing a wider luma bandwidth (=more picture details). The GV-USB2 has a slightly lower horizontal resolution (lower bandwidth at the expense of a slight loss of sharpness and details) than the USB-live2, so one may notice the "herringbones" less with the GV-USB2 than with the Hauppauge USB-live2. Differences are subtle though.
Of course it also depends on the source material and the tape player. i.e. the bandwidth it delivers for luma and chroma. Best is alwys use a decent cable and avoid unnecessary luma<->chroma crosstalk between the Y and C wires.

So it's not good to have a good capture device ? high bandwith should give better colors, but will make more details visible, sounds to me the same as "i like the composite quality" over the s-video quality, but then is said: you must capture as much detail as possible, (don't use a bad capture device as a filter ?) sounds to me like a never ending story, this way you can never define quality, and everybody is living by it's own truth, and one should never use any SCART adapter or cable,
are there any tests of Panasonic NTSC and PAL machines, that make high brightness level over RCA output/input, clear for all models ?

Are "herringbones" such fine details, that are lost, when doing final compression into h.264 ? aka videophile details….

[Sharc]

So it's not good to have a good capture device ? .....

Wrong conclusions ....
The purpose of my post was to stress the importance of using high quality connections (cables and adaptors) to preserve the advantages of S-Video instead of using junk material which undermines those benefits, as demonstrated.

Are "herringbones" such fine details, that are lost, when doing final compression into h.264 ? aka videophile details….

No. These patterns (herringbones, crawling ants) would only be "lost" with poor encodes (poor encoder, too high compression killing details) which would damage the picture anyway. Trying to eliminate crap with junk is never a good idea.

[Skiller]

So it's not good to have a good capture device ?

'Good' is a very loose term. A very wide low-pass filter in a capture device might be desireable when capturing studio quality signals (more details), but is of no advantage, possibly even a disadvantage, with low bandwidth sources such as VHS.

high bandwith should give better colors

With VHS color, pretty much anything is high bandwidth enough to capture everything that's there. Some people might disagree in case of NTSC DV with it's 4:1:1 sampling, but that's really the only possible exception.

and everybody is living by it's own truth

Somewhat, yes. Because there are so many variables, different expectiations, experiences and so on.

and one should never use any SCART adapter or cable,

No, but one should be wary when using one of these.

Are "herringbones" such fine details, that are lost, when doing final compression into h.264 ?

Herringbones are unwanted noise, not details.

[koca]

Does Panasonic DMR-EH55EC-S have TBC function?
Will it work as passthrough device?
Thanks!

[Attachment 75996 - Click to enlarge]

[Skiller]

Yes to both.

[Neil-Betamax]

Just wondering if anyone could shed some light on this.
I've used a Panasonic DMR EX79 to capture VHS and Betamax with a Black Magic Shuttle & Win10 Laptop & had fantastic results!

The only problem I'm having now, is that for some reason it has stopped caputuring video (goes black) if the image is slightly unstable. Audio remains ok.

I'm not sure what could have changed to make this happen as I was previously able to capture absolutely everything from tons of distortion on a tape, to the blue screen when a VHS isn't playing.

Could it be possible to change my settings on the DVD Rec to make it work as it did again?

[Sharc]

Just wondering if anyone could shed some light on this.
I've used a Panasonic DMR EX79 to capture VHS and Betamax with a Black Magic Shuttle & Win10 Laptop & had fantastic results!

The only problem I'm having now, is that for some reason it has stopped caputuring video (goes black) if the image is slightly unstable. Audio remains ok.

I'm not sure what could have changed to make this happen as I was previously able to capture absolutely everything from tons of distortion on a tape, to the blue screen when a VHS isn't playing.

Could it be possible to change my settings on the DVD Rec to make it work as it did again?

Check DVD recorder settings
For PAL models:
Display -> Gray background -> off

For NTSC models:
Display -> Blue background -> off

[Neil-Betamax]

Thanks Sharc,

I'll check that out...

[Neil-Betamax]

I didn't see a setting in display to adjust a gray or blue background.
I noticed under picture there's an option:

Input NR

It was 'on', so I've just turned off NR (I assume that's noise reduction).

[Xhumeka]

Whenever something stops working for no reason, my go-to first response is usually to clean the VCR heads. Have you been capturing a lot, and if so, have you been cleaning your heads regularly?

[Sharc]

I didn't see a setting in display to adjust a gray or blue background.
I noticed under picture there's an option:

Input NR

It was 'on', so I've just turned off NR (I assume that's noise reduction).

Yes, NR is noise reduction.
So the Display setting option has been dropped for your model it seems

[Attachment 77198 - Click to enlarge]