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  1. Member
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    Hi!

    I'm a retail mess-around user, I know I am stepping into a deep pond of video folks here. I think I asked this Q 2 yrs ago in another forum and no answers.
    Just need a "do this" answer

    The Super 8 mm film I have is not great (was it ever? Did my Dad just have the cheapest retail Kodak point and shoot?)

    The Wolverine MovieMaker Pro is absolutely adequate to digitize this stuff as mp4 to my eyes. It creates a MPEG-4 (HD?) movie file at 1080P/20 FPS (when I look at details of the file it is 1440 by 1080)

    I get hung up when Pinnacle Studio gives me choices of how to export the project - mp4 choices that change size (and I can adjust size in these):
    MPEG VISUAL, HVEC and H.264/AVC.

    Q: I should maintain the 1440 by 1080 ratio? Would I want another ratio for a DVD or any Smart TV that allows a USB stick to play files?
    Q: Which of the above formats should I use?
    Q: Should I archive in AVI? Do you guys do that? If it records in mp4 the quality is, what it is? - or does my edited project SAVED AS MP4 A SECOND TIME diminish quality and I should save as AVI?

    Unless some future generation family historian comes along, these films are just for me to remember folks. Just want to save in the best way given the Wolverine limitations.

    I am happy with short answers "click this" or a link or a detailed schooling answer! Ha

    Bob
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    If you're editing in Pinacle Studio, you should try and output as an intermediate lossless video,
    then use that as input for your DVD. I've no idea what is available in Studio

    For playback on the TV, you're limited by what the TV can play, usually h.264 and/or HEVC.
    Save it as mp4 with a high bitrate.

    Be sure to preserve the original capture file
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  3. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Firstly we do have a member here who has experience in using the Wolverine but I also guess that it went by other names so general Std-Super 8 scanners would equally apply.


    Response would inevitably come down to how you wish to view the final video. To keep it simple, if your tv can accept a 1440*1080 mp4 on a usb stick- bear in mind that we have no specific info of the actual video codec to work with - you should leave it as such since exporting to ANY other format will inevitably lose quality. But if you need to share these with others, who might not have TV's etc. that support that, you have little choice but to either convert yourself to a distributable format such as dvd or upload to a sharable site such as dropbox or even GoogleDrive.


    Beyond that you do need to be more specific so one does not waste words on detail that you will never need to comprehend.


    What I will add is that 8mm/Super8 was NEVER 20 fps so how the scanner created that is beyond me.
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    Thanks. Guess a want to know what saves keep the best versatility. I'm willing to save different versions for archival purposes but the array of choices gets a little nuts (see image 2 and then continued into image 3)

    1. Wanted to know if aspect ratio matters for a TV and what it does to DVD. If I click same as timeline I get the values in image #1. I followed posts about the Wolverine 20 FPS and slowed the video by 20% to get 18 FPS (or at least motion seems natural at that reduction - too fast after capture). Why 24 FPS comes up on the export profile on Pinnacle is lost on me. The exported file still appears slowed down. Should I kick it up to 1920*1080? Will that fill more of a TV screen?

    2. So any editing and saving to same format does not lose image quality? (again image #1 -- "same as timeline") There is a check box "always re-encode entire movie" that I don't know whether to leave unchecked?

    3. Any of Image 2 and 3 that I should consider saving as?

    This stuff is not detailed in Pinnacle manual that I can find and sifting through user posts and YouTube has not nailed answers (that I find so far)
    Thanks! Bob

    Attachments went sideways
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  5. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Your original film is analog, which means it doesn't have a set resolution. But, given the optics, the film processing, and the method of transfer, your likely equivalent digital resolution is roughly (at best?) 960x720, so if it capped at 1440x1080, that is about the best you can expect. 8mm and Super8mm frames are 4:3, so those 2 are both valid square pixel resolutions with 4:3 DAR.

    Now, color-wise, you may have lost a bit going with standard 4:2:0 AVC in an MP4 (which I am going to make an assumption that is what was output from the capture). But it isn't far off, so best to leave that as-is also.

    Framerate is where I am hesitant. One should ALWAYS match the framerate of the source (the film) or an integer multiple of that source. Your film was very likely 18fps, though perhaps 16 or 20, or less likely 15 or 24. Most 8mm films were 16 or 18, and most Super8mm were 18. YMMV. However, if it didn't capture as recommended, you will have partial frames.
    If double rate etc, you can at least skip over errant frames to save the good ones, and it wouldn't affect perceived (corrected) motion.

    But in between, you cannot fully get rid of partial frames and it looks terrible, and you could never get rid of them properly. You might end up then with jerky motion.

    What you said about slowing down made me think that perhaps that transfer system plays the film at a faster speed along with the capture at said speed. If so, you end up with full, sync-locked frames, just too fast. If that is the case, you CAN slow it down to fix, but you should always slow it by modifying the interpretation of the existing clip so it just plays slower. IOW, if it is supposed to be 18fps, but got played & capped at 20fps, modifying the metadata so it reads 18fps again will play it back now at the proper speed, and without re-encoding and subsequent quality loss. The complicating factor then would be the presence of audio (which would also need to be slowed down, and that stream WOULD need to be resampled and thus re-encoded with accompanying loss in the audio).

    If you didn't make your adjustments that way, you should back up and do it properly, with an original cap copy.

    On to editing...

    Assuming your corrected source clip is 4:3 DAR 1440x1080 @18fps, this is exactly what you should use as your editor timeline format - PRIOR to importing in your source clips! If you set it after, or if they don't match, your editor app will very likely resample in an attempt to bring it into compliance. Don't let it do that. If the editor you are using won't let you set up these custom settings, don't use it. USE A DIFFERENT ONE THAT WILL.
    As already mentioned, the best practice recommendation is to save using those SAME specs, but using a lossless codec (yes they will be huge files) for archiving and/or further editing. If doing an output conversion for file sharing, it is best to use that as the master and convert using again the exact same specs, but recompresing to AVC/h264 in MP4 (or HEVC/h265, if all your devices support that). If devices work better with MKV container that is ok too.

    AVC or HEVC does not work well at all inside an AVI container, so it is best to just avoid that.

    If encoding to mpeg2 for DVD, hcenc is a good option from that recommended master copy. Use STANDARD DVD specs here though: 720x480 @ 29.97fps (NTSC lands) or 720x576 @ 25fps (PAL lands). Follow the various tutorials on how to best resize down (remembering that ALL dvds use non-square pixels with those same resolutions, whether 4:3 or 16:9). Also follow the guides on how you can use pulldown flags to maintain your 18fps without resampling. For example, 18-->29.97 (aka 30) would basically be a 5:3 cadence, so every 3 frames input at 0.0555 sec duration give 5 frames at 0.0333 sec duration on output, with 2 of those frames being either duplicated (pulled down) or blended (from neighbors). It's a little more complex than that due to interlacing (which up until this point you haven't had to worry about), but that is the general idea.


    Hope that helps,

    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 20th Oct 2021 at 22:48.
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  6. Member
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    Thank you Scott, DB and Dave.

    I'll Google your comments to expand my understanding.

    I'm hearing I should not re-encode my output.

    Maintaining the 4:3 ratio was important to emphasize. That was mostly my question. Many of my other changes will be left to my perception of how it looks in the end.

    The 18/s frame rate vs the 20/s rate of the Wolverine (each frame jpeg captured) and then selecting a frame rate for the output (even though I've slowed the film in the software) may be a big learning curve. The software lets me choose a new % speed vs the original's "100%"

    Bob
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  7. leave it as it is. 4x3 1440x1080 is about as ideal as it gets.

    Not sure why anyone would make it in to 16:9 adding sidebars.

    Modern tv sets will play correct 4x3 aspect ratio from a usb stick if you have your tv aspect ratio on it's default 'original AR' setting.

    Leaving it in 1440x1080 will look nicer on YT, no sidebars

    If someone has set the tv aspect ratio menu to 16:9 then your 4x3 will be stretched and look wrong.

    None of my wolverine scans ever get the 16:9 treatment.

    I dislike seeing sidebars in YT for 4x3 content, and they do add a little more data to the file size.

    Avoid burning it to dvd, unless you do it as data for storage.

    Burning to dvd will reduce the quality, you will be taking a 1440x1080 and reducing it to 720x576 for dvd and then scaling back up to whatever size your tv screen is with the playback device.

    If family want to see it, upload it to youtube vimeo or distribute as is on a usb stick or google drive

    Archiving? leave it as it is, no point in doing anything to it. It is a wolverine scan, just be sure to have a few back up copies somewhere.

    If you want to edit it, keep the aspect ratio at 1440x1080 and export at a data rate of at least 11000kbps and no higher than 14000 in mp4 (h264 or if you have it h265 but some older tv sets will not play h265 from a stick as it is a relatively new codec, h264 if it is an older tv)

    Depending on your software, frame rate changes may well cause even more artifacts, so if you can live with 20fps, leave it as it is.

    It's likely you need to make any settings in your edit software before importing any media, frame rate, aspect ratio.

    your comment 2. So any editing and saving to same format does not lose image quality? is incorrect, you will get some loss of quality but you may not notice it so much on a smaller screen like an ipad.

    If the exported file size is smaller than the original file, then you have lost quality without doubt, that said, just making a file larger by increasing the data rate of the export does not mean it will look 'better'

    My best tip for frame rate change is to do a sample edit of a frame rate change in your software, export it and put it on a decent screen and pause it.

    Do you get a ghost image in pause? if so leave it be and live with 20fps.

    My edit software was rubbish at frame rate change, the artifacts were horrific in pause.

    There are methods of doing framerate change without using edit software, I like MYMP4 BOX gui but it only works on windows and is free.

    You can find my (age restricted) tutorial here to use MYMP4BOX, it does contain profanity. so if you're easily offended, turn the sound down and use the subtitles

    https://youtu.be/_Iw_dyBPG5I
    Last edited by super8rescue; 21st Oct 2021 at 11:48.
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  8. Member
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    Super8Rescue.

    Nice handle...

    Thank you for your direct instruction.

    Not understanding/trying to figure out why Pinnacle timeline dictates 30 fps when the file is put into it for edits. BUT slowing down 20 fps file with a 30 fps output is supposed to make it jumpy due to lost frames eh? I'm not seeing that so far. Slowing it really helps see the folks. Like most home videos there is no

    I'll try to look for ghosts on pause, especially this month

    Thank you for the software suggestion, I'm sure Pinnacle is meant for easy consumer digital captured files.

    I'll check your You Tube!

    Bob
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    Like most home videos there is no "thought to planning adequate time on a subject"
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  10. Originally Posted by BobbyL View Post
    Super8Rescue.

    Not understanding/trying to figure out why Pinnacle timeline dictates 30 fps when the file is put into it for edits. BUT slowing down 20 fps file with a 30 fps output is supposed to make it jumpy due to lost frames eh? I'm not seeing that so far. Slowing it really helps see the folks. Like most home videos there is no

    Bob
    A quick look online and it would seem that 18fps is not an option for pinnacle but I wonder if you could manipulate the frame rate using keyframes, as in this video, but doing it for the length of the scanned reel rather than just a 'bit of slow motion'

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0TrrxejsdI&t

    It's not an elegant solution by any means but it may give you the chance to get nearer to 18fps.

    Either that or as I suggested, use MYMP4BOX to so the frame rate and forego any editing with pinnacle.
    Last edited by super8rescue; 23rd Oct 2021 at 05:41.
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  11. Member
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    Thanks again for the other software suggestions!

    The Pinnacle program allows time remapping where I can slow the clip by a %.
    For these clips I slowed by 10% to bring 20 fps down to 18 fps and it does slow the motion -- but the final export when I click on Windows file properties says 24 fps (and a few say 30 fps) Don't know if that is what the mp4 I select dictates as a frame rate for the "slowed" clip.

    Bob
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