Is this TBC screen acceptable for capture

[SkyBlues2021]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I'm not sure if the lines on the blue screen are acceptable for capture? they don't seem to be moving lines. They don't seem to be on any videos I record to the DVD recorder. When I remove the TBC from the set up the screen has no lines. Sorry if you have seen similar threads to this in the past. I've have looked everywhere to find out what level of lines are acceptable. Should you expect a totally clean screen from a TBC?
My set up is Sony camcorder- 1T-TBC- jvc dr-mh30 everything plugged into a Cyberpower AVR.

I've attached two photos and youtube video clip

I would appreciate any advice.




[Attachment 60963 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 60964 - Click to enlarge]


https://youtu.be/Zn6v-Dwrxys

[Skiller]

Your camcorder seems to have a Firewire port. Why don't you use that for capturing?

I would not accept this level of noise introduced.

[SkyBlues2021]

Thank you for the feedback does this mean that the lines on the blue screen get overlayed onto the capture

[jagabo]

The character generator screens from the camcorder are an edge case which doesn't have much to do with real world video. If you aren't getting similar artifacts from normal video you shouldn't worry about it. And posting smartphone video of your TV screen isn't very illuminating.

[SkyBlues2021]

Thank you for your feedback. Sorry I didn't really understand what that means, would you be able to explain in a more base level as I'm new to this. Thanks

[dellsam34]

He means capture the actual video on tape not the menu and post a sample here.

[SkyBlues2021]

Thank you for explaining that. I will get something posted in the next couple of days. Do the lines on the blue screen mean anything or are they irrelevant.
Newbies like myself get TBCs but don't really understand how to test them except for the Macrovision test which I'm lead to believe isn't that important.
I've been looking for weeks for information regarding testing TBCs but can't find anything. I imagine I'm using incorrect terminology in my searches.

[dellsam34]

They are irrelevant until a video test is done, Why are you hooking up the TBC to the DVD recorder? Is the camcorder built in line TBC?

[SkyBlues2021]

Hi, Thank you for the post. Yes the Sony video walkman GV-D200E has a built in TBC. I've tried with both TBC on and off and have got the same results. I also tried it with a TRV-66 & TRV 108 both have built in TBC, again with the same results. I guess recording to a DVD recorder is frowned upon for capture but I'm really comfortable with this, I know there is a compromise on quality. But I know if I go the computer route I will probably never finish it. Could I make a dvd and transfer it to the computer or would the compression compromise the video test? Thanks.

[jagabo]

Compression compromises the video. But if that's the way you are going to capture all your video it's the only choice you have. I believe what you are seeing is a result of incomplete separation of the chroma carrier from the luma of a composite signal (dot crawl), followed by compression artifacts, then scaling artifacts.

With no separate you see something like this:


[Attachment 60986 - Click to enlarge]

instead of this:


[Attachment 60987 - Click to enlarge]

[SkyBlues2021]

Hi, Do you believe the no separation diagram symbolizes the lines I'm seeing on my blue screen? Thanks

[jagabo]

Maybe. That's why I sad " I believe what you are seeing is a result of incomplete separation of the chroma carrier from the luma of a composite signal (dot crawl), followed by compression artifacts, then scaling artifacts." Also maybe the TV's noise reduction artifacts. And with the youtube video: camera moire artifacts, and additional compression artifacts (by the camera and by youtube).

[SkyBlues2021]

Hi, Thank you for your reply. Do you think the TBC is causing that? and if so why. I don't see anything when the camcorder is hooked up to the DVD recorder(without the TBC) on blue screen except when the menu is on I get a faint line adjacent to where the writing is. Thanks.

[jagabo]

Are you using a composite cable anywhere?

[SkyBlues2021]

Hi, The set up in the footage and photos was s-video no audio cables. I've used about 8 different s-video cables including some new ones. All with the same results. I've also used 3 different 12v 2a center positive leads on the TBC Thanks.

[Alwyn]

I'd suggest just leaving the 1T-TBC out of the flow. Your camera has a TBC. I understand what TBCs are supposed to do, but if they cause that sort of interference, I would take it out. Less than complimentary comments about the 1T here:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/10962-tvone-1t-tbc.html

Re Firewire, if your computer has a Firewire port and your tapes are DV, capturing via Firewire really would be the best option, and reasonably straightforward too.

[dellsam34]

Hi, Thank you for your reply. Do you think the TBC is causing that? and if so why. I don't see anything when the camcorder is hooked up to the DVD recorder(without the TBC) on blue screen except when the menu is on I get a faint line adjacent to where the writing is. Thanks.

Nobody knows until you post some actual footage with and without external TBC, The camcorder's line TBC does not fix frames, it just fixes line timing and applies some DNR while at it.

[SkyBlues2021]

Hi, Thanks for the feedback. The 1T-TBC is one of the earlier ones it is a clone of the AVT-8710 apparently, not the one with the faulty chip. But sadly my knowledge is limited and I could be wrong.

[lordsmurf]

I'd suggest just leaving the 1T-TBC out of the flow. Your camera has a TBC. I understand what TBCs are supposed to do, but if they cause that sort of interference, I would take it out. Less than complimentary comments about the 1T here:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/10962-tvone-1t-tbc.html

That thread needs to be taken in context. It's about certain 1T's, not all.

A good 1T-TBC is fine.
A bad 1T-TBC has a flawed chipset.

Hi, Thanks for the feedback. The 1T-TBC is one of the earlier ones it is a clone of the AVT-8710 apparently, not the one with the faulty chip. But sadly my knowledge is limited and I could be wrong.

How did you determine that? Again, most are bad units.

Where did that unit come from? I'd need to know more, see lots of clear photos of all sides the exterior, and both sides of the internal board. Most 1T-TBC are flawed chip units, do not use.

Anyway, what you see here is likely completely unrelated to the TBC. It's herringbone interference. There's a power leak somewhere. Again, it's probably NOT the TBC, but TBCs are highly susceptible to power noise. Did you make the mistake of plugging a TBC directly into a wall outlet? Never do that. UPS required.

[Skiller]

Still, why not put it simple and make use of the great feature this particular camcorder has: capture any analog source via Firewire.
It used to be the most beginner friendly method of analog capture, and I'd argue it still is. You can throw 1st gen recordings at these Sony camcorders and be sure it'll be fine. Also, never any issues with audio sync! I always preferred this method when there was lots of footage to capture and I wouldn't want to break a sweat over it.
Yes, DV is not uncompressed, but it's good enough (PAL DV that is).

[SkyBlues2021]

Hi, Thank you for the feedback. I do use a cyberpower avr it could be noise. I have chokes on all the cables and have set up in different rooms, changed all the s-video cables and power supplies. I can't rule anything out. I could use the DV on the Sony GV-D200E is that more successful with audio sync? Thanks,

[Skiller]

I could use the DV on the Sony GV-D200E is that more successful with audio sync? Thanks,

Yes. (Just realized this is a "video walkman", not a camcorder, but that doesn't matter for the intended purpose.)

Connect via Firewire to a computer and capture with ScenalyzerLive or WinDV. 13 GiB per hour of capture. No sweat.

[jagabo]

Yes, "capturing" via firewire is easiest (once you're set up for it) and delivers acceptable quality with a DV source -- better than you'll get recording to DVDs.

[lordsmurf]

When you transfer/"capture" (wrong term) DV video, you can lose footage at start/end of clips.
The only way to grab the full footage is often analog capture.

That may not matter, if you did good camera work, had lead-in/out time when shooting. But most people did not. Hit "go" on the camera, right when words/action started, or even in middle of it all. The person may review the footage at shooting time, think "phew, I got!", but it would be missing footage with DV transfer.

With a quality analog workflow, you won't miss anything quality wise. The digital data was still shot with a low-end consumer camera, so (for example) that 720x480/576 is not the actual resolve of the crappy plastic lens.

[Skiller]

The OP wasn't clear about the actual source format to be captured or transferred, but if it was Digital8, there would be no need for a TBC at all. So I assume it must be either Hi8 or Video8.

I my decade of shooting MiniDV myself I did not come across that issue of missing parts (lead-in/out) if transferred via Firewire. Sony camcorders have a function that puts the tape to the exact point where the last shot ended, meaning there won't be a gap on the tape. And it's only needed if you have the desire to review footage while you're not finished shooting. But of course this is all down to the user... If you produce gaps on the tape, that's indeed suboptimal.

[lollo]

I my decade of shooting MiniDV myself I did not come across that issue of missing parts (lead-in/out) if transferred via Firewire.

Same here. I did a tranfer via firewire of more than 200 miniDV tapes and never had a missing part.

[SkyBlues2021]

Thank you for the feedback. The DV/firewire is probably the way I may have to go if I can't sort out the TBC. Some of my early video8 tapes do have gaps, because when you watched the footage you didn't quite put it back to the same point.
Is there anything else I could do if it is herringbone noise? As I mentioned I've changed all s-video leads and bought new ones. Changed the sony walkman power supply(twice) put ferrite chokes on everything set up in multiple rooms in the home(upstairs & downstairs). Everything from day one has been plugged into a Cyberpower AVR. I've also used a different TV, DVD recorder and different camcorders. I didn't get any lines with an ES10 in place of the TBC, but I have Datavideo TBC-1000 that does suffer badly with herringbone. I read somewhere that it's a common problem with that model so I've been persevering with the TVONE 1T-TBC

[dellsam34]

Try Video8 (TBC ON) -> S-Video -> ES10 -> S-Video -> Capture card, If it works sell all your TBC's and go buy yourself a nice used car. Jokes aside you won't get the help needed if you don't post capture samples.
Firewire route is better for your case.

I my decade of shooting MiniDV myself I did not come across that issue of missing parts (lead-in/out) if transferred via Firewire.

Me neither never missed a frame, I always start the transfer before the video starts, so there is black screen and then the video starts, Later I cut off all the black sections. I think some software have automatic scene detection and that's where frames could be lost but I've never used that automated feature.

[ccbradley]

Reviving this thread after some discussions via PM with the OP. A few questions/comments I have on the topic:

1. Are your source tapes in analog Hi8 format or Digital8? If they are recorded in Digital8, then it is not advisable to use an analog workflow. The DV bitstream over firewire would be identical to the Digital8 bitstream stored on the tape.

Assuming that the tapes are in analog format…

2. Were you able to extract clips from your DVDs of captured video from the tapes (i.e. not captures of the blue screen, as this is generated through a different signal path than the tape signal). If so, can you please post them? The safest way to do it without accidentally transcoding and introducing compression artifacts would be to generate an ISO file of the entire DVD and upload it.

3. Once you’ve captured your real footage to DVD and play it back, do you actually see any unsatisfactory noise artifacts? Or do you only see them on the blue screens while setting up your capture?

4. Regarding your S-video cables: are you using the minimal possible lengths? Where in the workflow is the television connected? Is it coming from the DVD recorder or are you splitting the signal at the TBC-1000 with one feed going to the recorder and one going to the TV?

5. Regarding your cyberpower AVR: are you operating it on battery power or do you have it plugged into mains? When plugged into mains, it’s not isolating you from any noise that may be present on your mains line. When running on battery power, you are isolated. However, the simulated sine wave of cheaper AVR models may end up introducing even more noise than mains. Only the more expensive “pure sine wave” models running on battery power will give you less noisy power than running directly from mains. That being said, you may get acceptable results by simply installing an A/C power line filter and making sure that all of your DC power supplies have good RF chokes on the cables.

[SkyBlues2021]

Hi, The tapes that I'm trying to capture at present are video8. I only see the herringbone on the blue screen. All my s-video and DV leads are 1m long the shortest I can get.

I've uploaded uploaded 2 videos to youtube that I've recorder to my JVC dr-mh30 dvd recorder. They are VOB files If this is good enough I will try to upload ISO files. Both are approx. 10 mins. long probably, too long. I can shorten them if required.

The first is a recording though a TBC-1000. I seem to have an issue with herringbone only on the blue screen when it starts to record there doesn't seem to be a problem. I left the blue screen sections on at the beginning and end of the video. Thank you for any advice.

http://youtu.be/WIFg-itMMGo

http://youtu.be/8Yogd_T4tel

The second is a recording through the DV firewire on my GV-D200E straight to my dvd recorder.