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  1. Hello VHS rippers!

    I went to Canada Computers and found out this RCA to HDMI converter. This thing is dog ****.

    https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_3598_3602&item_id=118698

    Seems like I'm obligated to use the internal 720p or 1080p upscaler which make no sense to me as the signal is interlaced. I can still see interlaced footage in the resulting progressive footage. Even OBS is unable to deinterlace the video. Also it doesn't really make sense speaking of PAR as the output signal is 1920x1080/59.95 and ends up in a 1440x1080/59.94 canvas. I've never seen a 59.95 framerate... And upscaling a VHS, is there really a benefit to this?

    To make things worst there's no stereo out on my VHS player, so I guess I'll need a decent player at the source if I want minimum results. What VHS player that wouldn't cost me a leg would be recommended for VHS ripping in 2021?

    I have those HDMI capture cards that could be useful in the process:
    • Magewell Pro Capture Dual HDMI
    • Blackmagic Design ATEM Mini
    • Elgato Game Capture 4K60 Pro MK.2
    • Elgato Game Capture HD60 S

    Is there a decent AV to HDMI converter that would give great results with my capture card? I also have PCI express slots available on my computer if there's a card that would do it.

    I'm on a budget and I can't afford things like a Kramer VP-410. Thanks for helping!
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  2. Any capture card that can capture interlaced video, and that isn't a total piece of rubbish (like elegato or easycap) would be better
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  3. The capture setups people here will recommend have nothing to do with HDMI. Do some searching, but tl;dr is the best VCR you can afford (JVC recommended list from DigitalFAQ, or AG1980 refurbished), and a good SD capture card (ATI TV Wonder 600, Blackmagic intensity, hauppauge cards).

    If you're on a budget and want archival quality, send them out to someone with an existing setup.
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  4. Here's a quick beginners guide referencing the common things people will tell you here and on DigitalFAQ https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/j4rwk1/the_how_do_i_digitizetransfercapt...e_video_tapes/
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  5. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Is there a decent AV to HDMI converter
    No. Those were made to kinda-sorta hit-or-miss-quality connect a video game console, or really old DVD player, to a HDTV. Not to be used with VCRs whatsoever.

    Magewell and Blackmagic surely make decent HD cards, but the SD performance is pathetic. A poor afterthought feature. You will have nothing but problems trying to use it for any SD capture, like VHS. Even with TBCs, it drops/dupes excessive frames.

    - Elgato earned the nickname "Elcrapo" for video cards. (And yet, Elgato makes some decent non-video products.)
    - Easycap earned the nickname Easycrap, and is literally a $2 Chinese USB card that sells for huge markups. Junk.

    There are other cards, but it depends heavily on Windows OS version used.

    You need a basic workflow for capture: VCR > TBC > capture card.
    Not just any random VCR/TBC/card, but units known for quality, and for not giving problems.
    There is an "easy button" option of the better gear (not "the best", not "fancy") that costs a few bucks. And then there are budget corner-cutting (thus cost-cutting) options, though with downsides in quality, caveats (aka aggravations), and even the capture-ability (ie, some tapes cannot be captured well, or at all). So how valuable is your time to you?

    OBS is screen recording software, not analog video capture software. That's the main problem in trying to force the round video peg into that OBS square hole. Wrong tool.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 30th Aug 2021 at 04:27.
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  6. Define the exact limits of "budget" when you say "I'm on a budget".

    If its literally what you spent on the iCan, or even double that, postpone the project until you can devote more money to it. Your existing random monophonic VCR coupled to a random cheap capture device is not going to get you anywhere near the result you want. The fact that you're even mentioning the word "deinterlace" implies your level of interest is somewhat above most of these queries, where everyone seems to want a magic bullet $50 setup that will give them youTube-ready files with no extra steps or technogeekery. So don't be afraid to wait until you can afford to get the quality you want: VHS is more archival and durable than most people (and scaremongering web stories) assume. I've got tapes from 1981 that still play perfectly, if yours are 10-20 yrs old I wouldn't worry about waiting another year or two or five. VHS doesn't "rot" or degrade significantly unless you live in a hot humid climate and/or store the tapes in an uninsulated attic or garage.

    It appears from your other posts that your primary video interest lies with trading and collecting music videos. At the very least, you're going to want a decent HiFi stereo VCR known for a reliable mechanism and good tracking of audio and video with a wide variety of tapes. The bare minimum I'd recommend for this would be a Mitsubishi HS-U448 or 449 (VHS) or HS-U748 or 749 (SVHS). I've used many of these over the years prior to and after the "digitizing VHS era" began, they are trouble-free, recent models (other older Mitsubishis should be avoided: like other brands, MGA had its good and bad years).

    The 448/449 and 748/749 are identical aside from the latter adding ability to play SVHS tapes in full quality and VHS/SVHS thru the capture-preferable S-video connection (448/9 have composite video connection only: no S-video). One of these VCRs will set you back $50 to $150 USD depending on luck and where you find one. Other good baseline VCRs are available from JVC and Panasonic, but reputation for HiFi audio tracking stability and video tracking range for widely varying tapes isn't as consistent as the four Mtsubishis.

    In addition to a known-good basic HiFi VCR you'd need a decent capture card (often a USB stick with external A/V input connection cords). There are several of these that work well under Windows 7, if you must use Windows 10 all bets are off and things get annoyingly hit or miss. While some here swear by Win 10 for capture, most swear at it for being a fountain of capture problems. You can instantly eliminate a lot of potential headaches by picking up a good second hand Win 7 PC or laptop (people practically give these away, well worth the cost if you don't already have a Win 7 computer). Plenty of info re various capture devices at LordSmurf's DigitalFAQ site.

    With these two items and a lot of luck, you might be able to obtain usable captures depending on your specific tapes and your definition of "usable". But this is the absolute rock bottom budget setup: it can't handle significant tape defects, can't improve the look of noisy tapes automatically in hardware, and can't compensate if your combo of computer and capture device tend toward technical allergies to the VHS signal. As a music video collector, you'll likely have many tapes with faulty signals that will pose challenges to PC capture: I think you'll definitely also need something like an old Panasonic ES10 or ES15 dvd recorder to use as a "passthru" signal conditioner (connected between VCR and capture device). These Panasonics have internal circuits that stabilize some gnarly problems that commonly plague music trader tapes, and sometimes they're sufficient to compensate the lack of a "premium" VCR and dedicated TBC box. So, for you, the lowest realistic target budget is going to be around $250-$350 USD for a good used Mitsu VCR, used Panasonic ES passthru, and good capture device. Deployment of passthru dvd recorders is covered pretty extensively here and at DigitalFAQ: just search the term "Panasonic ES10 passthru".

    The most vetted, documented, known-good, all-bases-covered capture setup would be what LordSmurf recommended earlier: its a significant investment, but has the least potential for problems and the highest upside in terms of quality. Such a setup would include a JVC "DigiPure" SVHS vcr with built in line TBC + DNR, external frame TBC box like Datavideo TBC-1000, and the same choice of good capture devices you would use with less expensive setups. Optionally, a Panasonic passthru recorder might still be useful for some ugly tapes. Prices for premium VCRs in fully working or restored condition, and especially the DataVideo TBC, are highly volatile and tend toward way way more than Average Joe was planning on spending. Figure minimum $250 for the VCR and $900 for the TBC, but thats optimistic and prices could easily be double that.

    Alternative TBC+DNR vcrs like the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U DVHS and industrial JVC combo SVHS/DVD units like JVC SR-MV50 can sometimes be found at lower price ranges, the Panasonic AG-1980 is at the top tier in some performance parameters but the most expensive to purchase and repair. The great advantage of premium VCRs is their remarkable ability clear up color noise and grain on-the-fly as the tape plays, allowing more capture bandwidth for the video and less for the noise. The biggest PITA with premium VCRs is finding one in good condition: proper repairs at this late date are difficult to source and easily cost more than the VCR did. Perversely, "ordinary" mid-level VCRs tend to be a lot more reliable and trouble free, so its a good idea to keep one of those around as emergency backup.

    No matter the setup, you'd capture to a standardized losslessly-compressed video format (huge files), perform any software based filtering and processes like de-interlace at that level, then finally convert to smaller commonplace file formats for playback on TV, typical consumer devices, or youTube etc. Thousands of threads cover the software part of capture and post processing, start with the primers over at DigitalFAQ.
    Last edited by orsetto; 30th Aug 2021 at 11:48.
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  7. This is a goldmine of knowledge. I've searched a lot on Google and I always ended up on crappy sponsored articles or questionable Youtubers "experts" that, well...

    I'll return the iCan product I bought and I'll start seeking the market for a good VCR with TBC as a first step. That step only should already take some time and I could save some money for step 2: SD capture card.

    This topic is going in my favorites and I'll update you if I have presale questions about the VCR. At least Lordsmurf's buying guide have lots of options.

    If anyone on the forum is selling his setup let me know, if I haven't said in this post that I have found one it's that I'm still searching!

    Thanks!
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    PM lordsmurf as he may have some machines and capture cards for sale. This is the best and only guaranteed way to be sure you'll getting top grade equipment. Be advised that doing it right isn't cheap. He has a complete top grade setup for $2955 at digitalfaq.com http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/marketplace/8057-sale-complete-workflow.html But, as he says, "Buy it, use it, resell it!" Reselling lordsmurf approved equipment will get you top dollar return.
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    Read and thoroughly digest this thread, especially the posts by lordsmurf and the links to his articles and threads at digitalfaq.com: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/j4rwk1/the_how_do_i_digitizetransfercapt...e_video_tapes/

    Absolutely stay away from YouTube for any advice. The real capture gurus are here and at digitalfaq.com (AKA Smurfville!)
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    I have just one question, why are you capturing VHS??? is that still a thing? 352 x 288/240 on a ~ 352 x 576/480, this stuff is 1980's technology. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious.
    It's not important the problem be solved, only that the blame for the mistake is assigned correctly
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  11. Originally Posted by sum_guy View Post
    I have just one question, why are you capturing VHS??? is that still a thing? 352 x 288/240 on a ~ 352 x 576/480, this stuff is 1980's technology. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious.
    You basically answered your own question.

    Originally Posted by sum_guy View Post
    this stuff is 1980's technology
    VHS recordings take place, are not fun to deal with when moving, they deteriorate while years go by and what I rip are the only available sources for the said content.

    I hate VHS, that's exactly why I want to rip them so I don't have to deal with the tech when I want to watch something exclusively on VHS.
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    Originally Posted by sum_guy View Post
    I have just one question, why are you capturing VHS??? is that still a thing? 352 x 288/240 on a ~ 352 x 576/480, this stuff is 1980's technology.
    Not that it matters but literally all the numbers are wrong, including the decade. Why are you even asking the question of why somebody wants to capture VHS in 2021 in a video tech forum. Oh boy.
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  13. Search for "Digitizing Video for Long-Term Preservation: An RFP Guide and Template"
    It might help.
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  14. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    At least Lordsmurf's buying guide have lots of options.
    These days, condition matters most. Realize that 99%+ of eBay sellers are liars or video know-nothing, and the "tested" and "working" decks rarely are functioning correctly, or at all. And then even if you do miraculously find a good unit, odds are the person ships it like junk, so it arrives damaged and non-working. This is not hyperbole, I'm being 100% serious here, that's the status quo of eBay and VCRs these days. Be very careful where you acquire your gear.

    The same is now true of TBCs, many bad units, either bad caps (TBC-1000s) or just outright bad versions/submodels (black AVT-871).

    Do not randomly buy things from random places. Quickest way to end up wasting time and funds.

    Originally Posted by sum_guy View Post
    I have just one question, why are you capturing VHS??? is that still a thing? 352 x 288/240 on a ~ 352 x 576/480, this stuff is 1980's technology. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious.
    There are mountains of content on VHS still, be it home movies or unreleased.

    And as stated already, your numbers are wrong. VHS is not x240/288. That old 1990s dumb myth was started by people that failed to understand that "240 lines" of analog VHS resolution had nothing to do with digital, and in fact isn't even referring to the same axis (~240x, not x240). This came from the VCD era, when video traders were trying to insist VCD was as good as VHS (it wasn't), and the "240" was their false "proof".

    Originally Posted by 4kblurayguru View Post
    Search for "Digitizing Video for Long-Term Preservation: An RFP Guide and Template"
    It might help.
    That guide is BS. It is obviously written by a non-video person, and is a mishmash of random information. It looks like a failing term paper of a HS/college student more than anything else, with all the footnotes. When a guide on VHS transfer doesn't even mention time base correctors (TBCs), it's a POS that should be ignored.

    Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    Be advised that doing it right isn't cheap.
    I also have some budget options, at half that, or even less than half. So don't scare anybody away with big numbers. But just remember: when you cut costs, you cut quality and add aggravation. So how much is your time and sanity worth to you? Buy it, use it, resell it.

    A basic VCR>TBC>capture workflow is required, and there are several ways to get there. But the "easy button" option, the one that will cut through your tapes like a knife through hot butter, and offers the best quality, is the setup using JVC S-VHS decks with line TBC, the DataVideo/Cypress type frame TBC, and the quality capture card. When you deviate from suggested setups, either ideal or budget, all hell breaks loose, many problems, no quality to be had.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 5th Sep 2021 at 18:40. Reason: typos
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  15. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sum_guy View Post
    I have just one question, why are you capturing VHS??? is that still a thing?
    If your family left you home videos on VHS, how else do you transfer them to digital? Do you just toss them because it is not a thing anymore?
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  16. Originally Posted by sum_guy View Post
    I have just one question, why are you capturing VHS??? is that still a thing? 352 x 288/240 on a ~ 352 x 576/480, this stuff is 1980's technology. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious.
    Such a weird question to ask on videohelp.com forums in the analog capturing subforum lol
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  17. Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Even OBS is unable to deinterlace the video.
    OBS has terrible SD video handling with numerous technical issues around things like color accuracy, interlaced video generally, etc. Stick to tools like VirtualDub2, FFmpeg, StaxRip, etc.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    I've never seen a 59.95 framerate...
    59.94 fields per second goes back to the earliest days of color TV in the 1950s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GJUM6pCpew

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    And upscaling a VHS, is there really a benefit to this?
    Depends on if you're archiving for historical preservation or making something more compatible and visually pleasing for regular playback.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    To make things worst there's no stereo out on my VHS player, so I guess I'll need a decent player at the source if I want minimum results.
    Time to upgrade to a much newer late 90s or early 2000s Hi-Fi deck. Bonus if it's S-VHS with S-video outputs.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Magewell Pro Capture Dual HDMI
    Magewell's PCIe analog cards, the Pro Capture HDMI and Pro Capture AIO, are arguably the best VHS capture cards around for reasonable money. Magewell enabled the line TBC built into the ADV7842 analog front-end used on these cards, which should handle most tape media. The temporal pacing is also corrected by the card, which is basically a glorified FPGA-based video processor. They're great cards sold into the professional market and everything that implies. You get what you pay for and all that.

    You also want Magewell's PCIe cards over their ostensibly equivalent USB cards as the USB versions are UVC devices limited to 8-bit color and other "fun" USB-related limitations.

    Only real downside to the Magewell Pro Capture HDMI/AIO cards is the WM8731 audio ADC they use, which is pretty low-end on objective qualities like S/N and THD+N. You're better off routing the audio side through a "real" audio interface with line-level inputs, e.g. Motu M4.

    Another capture option using Analog Devices' ADV chips with line TBC enabled are the Kona LHi and Kona LHe from AJA. Spendy when new and older designs, but they're solid pro cards that you can sometimes get for cheap on the used market. Audio side is notably better than Magewell too, but still a bit behind modern dedicated audio interfaces.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Blackmagic Design ATEM Mini
    Blackmagic's ATEM Mini boxes only output MJPEG (series of JPEG images) over USB 2.0 as a UVC webcam. Quality is pretty poor output-wise, all things considered.

    It also doesn't help that Blackmagic as a company seems to not care about analog, interlaced, or Linux, even on ostensibly flagship stuff like their Teranex converters. Any combination of analog/interlaced/Linux will have lulz level bugs that make BMD stuff unreliable. BMD doesn't even make a TBC at all, in any form, which should be a hint.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Elgato Game Capture 4K60 Pro MK.2
    Elgato Game Capture HD60 S
    Elgato's capture cards (along with Startech and Micomsoft) are ODM/OEM rebrands of Yuan cards. Yuan, like Blackmagic, has stopped caring about SD and analog and this shows in things like driver bugs and regressions around SD content. You can't even get a proper 59.94 out of them. When you have people like the guy behind RetroTINK saying Elgato cards are straight-up not supported, that should be a hint.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Is there a decent AV to HDMI converter that would give great results with my capture card?
    You're best off pulling the raw analog source into something with a line TBC built-in to the analog front-end, e.g. Magewell Pro Capture HDMI, and capturing with something that supports relevant features like raw 4:2:2 capture with correct resolutions, FPS rates, etc, e.g. FFmpeg or VirtualDub2.

    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    The bare minimum I'd recommend for this would be a Mitsubishi HS-U448 or 449 (VHS) or HS-U748 or 749 (SVHS). I've used many of these over the years prior to and after the "digitizing VHS era" began, they are trouble-free, recent models (other older Mitsubishis should be avoided: like other brands, MGA had its good and bad years).

    The 448/449 and 748/749 are identical aside from the latter adding ability to play SVHS tapes in full quality and VHS/SVHS thru the capture-preferable S-video connection (448/9 have composite video connection only: no S-video).
    If the FCC filings are anything to go by, the Mitsubishi HS-U74x and HS-U77x (x == [6-9]) are all mechanically identical with only some PCB revisions over the years. I would assume the HS-U44x regular VHS units in the same number range are the same as well. Pretty sure the regular VHS models had S-VHS quasi-playback too?

    Haven't the 2000s era regular consumer Panasonics proven to be durable at this point?

    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    There are several of these that work well under Windows 7, if you must use Windows 10 all bets are off and things get annoyingly hit or miss. While some here swear by Win 10 for capture, most swear at it for being a fountain of capture problems. You can instantly eliminate a lot of potential headaches by picking up a good second hand Win 7 PC or laptop (people practically give these away, well worth the cost if you don't already have a Win 7 computer).
    Suggesting Windows 7 is pretty laughable at this point on all kinds of fronts. As long as you're on a current build of Windows 10 with vaguely modern hardware and writing to a non-SMR HDD (SMR disks have terrible performance) or SSD made in the last ~5 yrs by a major storage manufacturer (e.g. Samsung, Intel, WD/SanDisk, Toshiba/Kioxia, Seagate) you'll be fine.

    The Windows 7 proponents seem to have a thing for legacy capture cards built around Conexant chipsets, but those Conexant chips did get updated to PCIe versions with Windows 10 drivers. You can still get them new from the likes of Avermedia, Osprey, or Hauppauge (with a tuner even).

    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    As a music video collector, you'll likely have many tapes with faulty signals that will pose challenges to PC capture: I think you'll definitely also need something like an old Panasonic ES10 or ES15 dvd recorder to use as a "passthru" signal conditioner (connected between VCR and capture device). These Panasonics have internal circuits that stabilize some gnarly problems that commonly plague music trader tapes, and sometimes they're sufficient to compensate the lack of a "premium" VCR and dedicated TBC box.
    This shouldn't be needed on the vast majority of tapes if you get one of the Magewell or AJA capture cards. If you do have a handful of gnarly corner case tapes needing more love, you can try one of the HDD-equipped SD-era DVRs from the likes of Phillips, which will also do TBC passthrough. Depending on who you ask, they match the older Panasonic DVD writers for TBC performance.
    Last edited by energizerfellow; 3rd Sep 2021 at 01:11.
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  18. Thanks energizerfellow for your reply. I was really impressed to hear that there was about nothing compatible for windows 10. From all the products you've enumerated the only decent one that's in my budget range would be the Pro Capture HDMI https://www.magewell.com/products/pro-capture-hdmi

    Just to confirm TBC is done within this card so I could only get a 2000's era VHS player with svideo out?

    Also I have a Motu M.2 and a Behringer XR18. I prefer the preamps on the M.2 when I record in studio. The card have less inputs but sounds much better imo. The behringer is great though for live performance/recordings and recording drums.

    And one last question, what do you think of the VP410 compared to the Pro Capture HDMI?

    Thanks for your help!
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  19. Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Just to confirm TBC is done within this card so I could only get a 2000's era VHS player with svideo out?
    Yes, the AJA and Magewell cards with analog inputs have a line (spatial) TBC in them that's used when they're fed an analog video signal.

    Be aware you'll still have to deal with temporal distortion (field/frame pacing over time) from things like the tape stretching and the audio/visual sync issues that can cause. Some details here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn_TDa9zY1c

    That video is a bit outdated regarding things like using 720p for Youtube via transcoding in Handbrake or the old 8-bit only VirtualDub, but all the underlying technical theory is the same and correct (VirtualDub2 with a 10-bit color pipeline and StaxRip would more modern equivalents). VHS, like all the heterodyne "color under" formats (VHS, Betamax, Video8, U-matic) are natively 4:2:2 chroma subsampling. The integer FPS rates of 30 and 60 also aren't "real" FPS rates in NTSC land. Don't use OBS for SD video capture.

    VCR-wise, yes, find the newest, best condition one you can find. Bonus if it's one of the later S-VHS decks that supports S-VHS ET (and capture via S-video if you get one). Check the build dates on the back of the unit if you can. Things like the FCC database are helpful to get model launch dates. You'll probably need to clean the heads too, regardless of what you end up with.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Also I have a Motu M.2 and a Behringer XR18. I prefer the preamps on the M.2 when I record in studio. The card have less inputs but sounds much better imo. The behringer is great though for live performance/recordings and recording drums.
    Yeah, the Motu M2 and M4 are some of the best consumer-priced audio interfaces right now. I've got a M4 on my desk right now for the line-level inserts in the rear. I'm debating the big RME upgrade here soon.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    And one last question, what do you think of the VP410 compared to the Pro Capture HDMI?
    Those things are flaming hot garbage with numerous faults for the issue at hand. They're utility video devices meant for conference room projectors and Kramer was never known for their video quality, especially next to the likes or Extron, let alone actual broadcast video equipment. Kramer seems to sell mostly into the K-12 education market, which should tell you everything you need to know quality-wise. There's no TBC of any kind in a box like the Kramer VP-410.
    Last edited by energizerfellow; 3rd Sep 2021 at 03:47.
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  20. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by energizerfellow View Post
    Magewell's PCIe analog cards, the Pro Capture HDMI and Pro Capture AIO, are arguably the best VHS capture cards around for reasonable money. Magewell enabled the line TBC built into the ADV7842 analog front-end used on these cards, which should handle most tape media.
    Originally Posted by energizerfellow View Post
    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Just to confirm TBC is done within this card so I could only get a 2000's era VHS player with svideo out?
    Yes, the AJA and Magewell cards with analog inputs have a line (spatial) TBC in them that's used when they're fed an analog video signal.
    This is not accurate.

    HD cards like Magewall and Blackmagic are some of the worst choices for working with SD analog (VHS,etc) formats. Why? Those cards tend to drop and insert frames even with actual TBCs in the workflow. It's done silently, without proper reporting to the capture software. Blackmagic sometimes, notoriously, shows these as "black frames". You're flying blind, and screwing up video without realizing it.

    The ADV7842 is not a TBC.
    A single chip is not a TBC.

    That ADI chip has some potential, but it's not enabled, or at least not fully enabled. The raw ADV7842 performance on its own is not great, and can in fact make video worse -- which is clearly why it was disabled on these HD cards. This was known year ago. ADI chose to abandon these functions, rather than make them better in latter chips. There is currently no way to replace a quality S-VHS VCR with line TBC to get quality line TBC performance (with some DVD recorders coming next).

    This "chip=TBC" topic is a myth that just will not go away.
    TBCs are multiple chips and dedicated RAM buffers, which the HD capture cards lack.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    And one last question, what do you think of the VP410 compared to the Pro Capture HDMI?
    To be blunt, you're going down a dumb path.
    You're getting really lost.
    Analogy time: You want to haul cattle, so you're looking at a sport car. Uh... what? NO!
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 3rd Sep 2021 at 06:42.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by energizerfellow View Post
    Magewell's PCIe analog cards, the Pro Capture HDMI and Pro Capture AIO, are arguably the best VHS capture cards around for reasonable money. Magewell enabled the line TBC built into the ADV7842 analog front-end used on these cards, which should handle most tape media.
    Originally Posted by energizerfellow View Post
    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Just to confirm TBC is done within this card so I could only get a 2000's era VHS player with svideo out?
    Yes, the AJA and Magewell cards with analog inputs have a line (spatial) TBC in them that's used when they're fed an analog video signal.
    This is not accurate.

    HD cards like Magewall and Blackmagic are some of the worst choices for working with SD analog (VHS,etc) formats. Why? Those cards tend to drop and insert frames even with actual TBCs in the workflow. It's done silently, without proper reporting to the capture software. Blackmagic sometimes, notoriously, shows these as "black frames". You're flying blind, and screwing up video without realizing it.

    The ADV7842 is not a TBC.
    A single chip is not a TBC.

    That ADI chip has some potential, but it's not enabled, or at least not fully enabled. The raw ADV7842 performance on its own is not great, and can in fact make video worse -- which is clearly why it was disabled on these HD cards. This was known year ago. ADI chose to abandon these functions, rather than make them better in latter chips. There is currently no way to replace a quality S-VHS VCR with line TBC to get quality line TBC performance (with some DVD recorders coming next).

    This "chip=TBC" topic is a myth that just will not go away.
    TBCs are multiple chips and dedicated RAM buffers, which the HD capture cards lack.

    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    And one last question, what do you think of the VP410 compared to the Pro Capture HDMI?
    To be blunt, you're going down a dumb path.
    You're getting really lost.
    Analogy time: You want to haul cattle, so you're looking at a sport car. Uh... what? NO!

    Lordsmurf,

    I can show you, how to capture quality video: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/402943-The-quality-of-SONY-FDR-Ax700-lossless-NVEN...ith-Camlink-4K
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  22. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Truthler View Post
    I can show you, how to capture quality video:
    Note to others:
    Truthler peddles misinformation. For example.
    Disregard if you care about quality, or simply your video sanity.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
    FAQs: Best Blank DiscsBest TBCsBest VCRs for captureRestore VHS
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  23. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    Disregard if you care about quality, or simply your video sanity.
    I do not understand why Truthler posted that link, it is not related to VHS analog capture in any way.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by Truthler View Post
    I can show you, how to capture quality video:
    Note to others:
    Truthler peddles misinformation. For example.
    Disregard if you care about quality, or simply your video sanity.
    You though that you arte an early beginner in digital video, but you started at least 2 years later than me (1998). You believe that you are professional...and you speak about VHS and beta-Max digitalizing, what teenagers could do since the late 1990s. Do you know who were the real professional and REALLY COOL? In national state film institutions/archives, who already digitalized real film stripes with hyper expensive special machines and who had a speacial university degree. That was called professional and cool that time. Capturing from VHS and Betamax ... the devices were so cheap and available for wide commercial usage in the late 1990s, that it didn't sound professional for me. Even well-to-do teenagers (like me) could do such things with commercial devices in 1998... What was professional in it....? It's simply ridiculous.
    Why can't you admit that you are just a layman not a true professional... ? MAybe you worked in a TV repair shop . Oh I forget your filmmaking talent ! Sometimes at weekends (when the shop was closed) you shot some weddings (or porn) videos , and shot some photos.......that's all...You had not enough good grades in secondary school to learn a special engineeering degree at the university. You are a craftsman/technician with secondary school degree... It was not serious thing /degree/education even by the late 20th century standards...

    Here was your workplace in the 1990s...





    The only chance when you can speak with women in your life: (when you fix their TVs)


    And at least, at the weekends, you can fullfil your great Oscar award winner "film director" creativity talents... in village weddings...
    Here:


    Oh, I forgot, you have "Broadcast experience" too : At the local small no-name TV station the cameramen got influenza , so they had to remain at home, one of them aksed you to replace him for a day... Because you told him on the telephone that you have clue and knowledge about TV technology... Than the reality backfired: There were series slips on the TV show that day because you had just learned the basics in the studio ... The problems were so numerous that the TV announcers apologized to the audience for technical problems that happened that day even 2 weeks later.
    Last edited by Truthler; 4th Sep 2021 at 12:21.
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  25. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    One can freely choose what hardware to use, There are better ways to express your disagreement without personal attacks.
    I see that your main focus is HD and 4K via HDMI but capturing analog video follows specific standards that HD workflow most of the time don't adhere to like Rec.601. The only digital port that I found kept the backward compatibility for SD is SDI, HDMI depends on the hardware design, but most modern HDMI devices take SD as 480p.
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    One can freely choose what hardware to use, There are better ways to express your disagreement without personal attacks.
    I see that your main focus is HD and 4K via HDMI but capturing analog video follows specific standards that HD workflow most of the time don't adhere to like Rec.601. The only digital port that I found kept the backward compatibility for SD is SDI, HDMI depends on the hardware design, but most modern HDMI devices take SD as 480p.
    Okay, I have never start personal attacks, but I don' like to leave it without counter-answer ... This self-satisfied and self-appointed "film-director" and "video engineer" (yeaaah with secondary school degree) combo guy always behaved aggressively. It is hard to stand for normal people, that's why I used humor against him.

    At least I invented a very very simple invention in the early 2000s, when enough fast laptops became enough strong and the first USB capture cards appeared, I recorded from SD video cameras to the hard drive, than later in the end of decade, I recorded in HD, and when Camlink appeared 2-3 years ago I can record 4K.

    So I could record lossless way even on the streets, and later I can recompress the captured material. I'm sure that in film industry there were special machines for that....but this very simple idea with commercial devices was shocking news for experts too. I can't be sure, that I was the first in the world, but I can not find earlier example for that or even mentioning the idea even with Google searcher.

    At least I invented this in the early 2000s, a very-very simple but creative thing. He invented nothing, he just use existing softwares and HW as an imitation in a usual way as he learned about them.
    Last edited by Truthler; 4th Sep 2021 at 12:17.
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  27. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Blackmagic are some of the worst choices for working with SD analog (VHS,etc) formats. Why? Those cards tend to drop and insert frames even with actual TBCs in the workflow. It's done silently, without proper reporting to the capture software.
    Get a card that doesn't suck then.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Blackmagic sometimes, notoriously, shows these as "black frames". You're flying blind, and screwing up video without realizing it.
    That's because Blackmagic as a company does a terrible job of handling anything that isn't a modern, progressive, balls-on spec-compliant signal in their hardware products. Look elsewhere for your analog front-end (AFE).

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    A single chip is not a TBC.
    Advanced AFE decoders that sit somewhere between a ASIC and a SoC with features like 3D Y/C comb filtering and a line/field/frame TBC have been a thing for well over a decade at this point. Renesas, Texas Instruments, and Analog Devices (missing anybody?) all have at least one in current production with the likes of Panasonic and Mitsubishi in the past as well. Examples include, but not limited to, the ISL51002, TVP5160, and ADV7842. You'll just see them under phrases like "Analog VCR “Trick Mode” support" (Renesas) or "Adaptive Digital Line Length Tracking (ADLLT™) algorithm" (ADI). TI straight-up calls it a TBC at least.

    A defining feature of these chips is that they have enough onboard memory for 2D comb filtering and a line TBC, but need directly attached external SDRAM to have enough memory for 3D comb filtering and/or field/frame TBC, which are outlined in excruciating detail like this 500+ page tomb on the ADV7842.

    That said, many product vendors choose to forego the direct-attached RAM and instead use a FPGA behind the AFE for things like temporal correction, color space conversion, up/down/cross scaling, AR correction, etc.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    The raw ADV7842 performance on its own is not great, and can in fact make video worse -- which is clearly why it was disabled on these HD cards.
    There's some debate as to just how much better the Renesas and TI front-ends are vs ADI, yes, which has been discussed at some length over at the Shmups Forum, but I somehow doubt that's what you meant.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    This was known year ago. ADI chose to abandon these functions, rather than make them better in latter chips.
    Did you link the right thread? If anything, that thread is a testament to how good Magewell's implementation of the ADV7842 is and tangentially gets into things like why professional intermediate codecs and transports (e.g. ProRes, DNx, SDI, et al.) are full-range 10-bit or how the Panasonic DVD-R passthrough has some voltage level issues.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    There is currently no way to replace a quality S-VHS VCR with line TBC to get quality line TBC performance (with some DVD recorders coming next).
    For mechanical aspects like the tape transport and heads, no, but the way to go in the modern era is arguably to turn off all the VCR's TBC and DNR functionality, capturing things as raw as possible with a external TBC-equipped AFE, then giving the result a once-over with vectorscope correction and something like Neat Video. Modern software DNR is way better than that old 90s-era stuff and the correction tools you get in modern NLE software used to be stupid expensive back in the day.
    Last edited by energizerfellow; 4th Sep 2021 at 15:01.
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    Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    Hello VHS rippers!

    I went to Canada Computers and found out this RCA to HDMI converter. This thing is dog ****.

    https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_3598_3602&item_id=118698

    Seems like I'm obligated to use the internal 720p or 1080p upscaler which make no sense to me as the signal is interlaced. I can still see interlaced footage in the resulting progressive footage. Even OBS is unable to deinterlace the video. Also it doesn't really make sense speaking of PAR as the output signal is 1920x1080/59.95 and ends up in a 1440x1080/59.94 canvas. I've never seen a 59.95 framerate... And upscaling a VHS, is there really a benefit to this?

    To make things worst there's no stereo out on my VHS player, so I guess I'll need a decent player at the source if I want minimum results. What VHS player that wouldn't cost me a leg would be recommended for VHS ripping in 2021?

    I have those HDMI capture cards that could be useful in the process:
    • Magewell Pro Capture Dual HDMI
    • Blackmagic Design ATEM Mini
    • Elgato Game Capture 4K60 Pro MK.2
    • Elgato Game Capture HD60 S

    Is there a decent AV to HDMI converter that would give great results with my capture card? I also have PCI express slots available on my computer if there's a card that would do it.

    I'm on a budget and I can't afford things like a Kramer VP-410. Thanks for helping!
    Use a simple USB SD capture card, record it in normal SD resolution with lossless codec like the NVIDIA_NEVNC-HEVC or rather the lossless UT VIDEO codec in OBS or Virtualdub2 capture mode.
    Than you can supersample color grade it to HD with perfect resolution frame rate and fine-tuned sharpness in Adobe Premiere Pro. You can download and the free VOUKODER plugin for Premiere.... Save it with VOUKODEr in interlaced format.
    That's all.....
    Don't make things more complicated then they are.



    AverMedia EZMaker USB SDK



    Output Pixel formats: NTSC: YUY2 (4: 2: 2), UYVY (4: 2: 2)
    PAL / SECAM: YUY2 (4: 2: 2), UYVY (4: 2: 2), Y8
    Last edited by Truthler; 4th Sep 2021 at 12:54.
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  29. Originally Posted by energizerfellow View Post
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    A single chip is not a TBC.
    Renesas, Texas Instruments, and Analog Devices (missing anybody?) all have at least one in current production with the likes of Panasonic and Mitsubishi in the past as well. Examples include, but not limited to, the ISL51002, TVP5160, and ADV7842. You'll just see them under phrases like "Analog VCR “Trick Mode” support" (Renesas)
    A defining feature of these chips is that they have enough onboard memory for 2D comb filtering and a line TBC, but need directly attached external SDRAM to have enough memory for 3D comb filtering and/or field/frame TBC, which are outlined in excruciating detail like this 500+ page tomb on the ADV7842.
    Are you sure the thing in the Renesas chip is the same as the two others? It's not really clear if it actually can buffer lines to resize to a stable output length or if it's more about being able to gaps or non-standard HSYNC such as with a head switch or trick play modes (FFWD/RWD) on a vcr. In any case Renesas does presumably at least have patents/technology for it as they inherited NECs lineup of video decoder hardware that was capable of this. (Though in those it seems the line-TBC function is part of the mpeg encoder chip rather than the A/D chip.)

    The in-VCR TBCs used in later JVC and Panasonic consumer vcrs were also mostly a single chip other than memory and some glue logic as well.

    Some people have had some success with the ADV7842 EVAL boards, though from what I've hread to have started to be more restrictive on who gets to buy them lately. I wonder if there is anything else available that use those or related ICs that's easily available.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    There is currently no way to replace a quality S-VHS VCR with line TBC to get quality line TBC performance (with some DVD recorders coming next).
    For mechanical aspects like the tape transport and heads, no, but the way to go in the modern era is arguably to turn off all the VCR's TBC and DNR functionality
    There were some VCRs that did some processing that can't be done on the finished signal, like digital dropout compensation or stabilizing the color signal before upconverting. For VHS specifically I believe some of the big ass broadcast models had digital dropout compensation at least. Some JVC and related SVHS decks released in japan advertise "629TBC", but I haven't seen that on their western consumer models (how effective that is in practice I don't know). I'm a bit unsure when it comes to the "digital process" panasonic SVHS decks. Most SVHS VCRs with TBC just have a tbc chip/board tacked on at the end of the chain though and seem to not really depend on much inside the VCR other than being helped by knowing the head switch point or if it's in a trick mode.
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    Originally Posted by oln View Post
    Originally Posted by energizerfellow View Post
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    A single chip is not a TBC.
    Renesas, Texas Instruments, and Analog Devices (missing anybody?) all have at least one in current production with the likes of Panasonic and Mitsubishi in the past as well. Examples include, but not limited to, the ISL51002, TVP5160, and ADV7842. You'll just see them under phrases like "Analog VCR “Trick Mode” support" (Renesas)
    A defining feature of these chips is that they have enough onboard memory for 2D comb filtering and a line TBC, but need directly attached external SDRAM to have enough memory for 3D comb filtering and/or field/frame TBC, which are outlined in excruciating detail like this 500+ page tomb on the ADV7842.
    Are you sure the thing in the Renesas chip is the same as the two others? It's not really clear if it actually can buffer lines to resize to a stable output length or if it's more about being able to gaps or non-standard HSYNC such as with a head switch or trick play modes (FFWD/RWD) on a vcr. In any case Renesas does presumably at least have patents/technology for it as they inherited NECs lineup of video decoder hardware that was capable of this. (Though in those it seems the line-TBC function is part of the mpeg encoder chip rather than the A/D chip.)

    The in-VCR TBCs used in later JVC and Panasonic consumer vcrs were also mostly a single chip other than memory and some glue logic as well.

    Some people have had some success with the ADV7842 EVAL boards, though from what I've hread to have started to be more restrictive on who gets to buy them lately. I wonder if there is anything else available that use those or related ICs that's easily available.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    There is currently no way to replace a quality S-VHS VCR with line TBC to get quality line TBC performance (with some DVD recorders coming next).
    For mechanical aspects like the tape transport and heads, no, but the way to go in the modern era is arguably to turn off all the VCR's TBC and DNR functionality
    There were some VCRs that did some processing that can't be done on the finished signal, like digital dropout compensation or stabilizing the color signal before upconverting. For VHS specifically I believe some of the big ass broadcast models had digital dropout compensation at least. Some JVC and related SVHS decks released in japan advertise "629TBC", but I haven't seen that on their western consumer models (how effective that is in practice I don't know). I'm a bit unsure when it comes to the "digital process" panasonic SVHS decks. Most SVHS VCRs with TBC just have a tbc chip/board tacked on at the end of the chain though and seem to not really depend on much inside the VCR other than being helped by knowing the head switch point or if it's in a trick mode.
    Why does the HW resize needed, when you can resize the video with softwares? Captue the VHS in lossless original resolution...than put it to Premiere. I recorded some VHS contents with Avermedia products without any problems...
    Last edited by Truthler; 4th Sep 2021 at 13:40.
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