Capturing Digital8 using Sony DCR Firewire/IEEE 1394 port - scrambled image

[Colek]

Hello,

I have Sony DCR camera that has Firewire/IEEE 1394 port. I've captured about 30 old tapes recorded on different cameras using it without issue.

However, I am having a problem with three tapes.



The picture is scrambled when I try capturing it with WinDV/ScenalyzerLive as shown on screen cap above. The picture shows fine on camera's screen and S-Video out.

Any idea what seems to be the problem with these three tapes in particular?

[dellsam34]

If the picture is fine in the viewfinder the cable is the number one suspect, Try clean all four connection ends and inspect for damaged pins, reseat firmly and restart the computer.

[Colek]

If the picture is fine in the viewfinder the cable is the number one suspect, Try clean all four connection ends and inspect for damaged pins, reseat firmly and restart the computer.

Thank you for your reply. I will try it tomorrow. I should also have a spare cable somewhere as well.

I should add that it only happens to these three tapes - when I try playing any other tapes I have, they're all fine.

Audio is also 'weird' on these captures.

[dellsam34]

It is possible that the tapes have been exposed to some magnetic field from nearby magnets or speakers, Could have been recorded on a misaligned camcorder.

[energizerfellow]

What model camcorder and what tape format? The problem tapes wouldn't happen to be LP speed MiniDV would they?

[dellsam34]

It's in the thread title.

[Colek]

I've replaced the cable and cleaned out the port on camera - didn't fix the issue.

I've taken out the old computer that has integrated IEEE 1394 port on motherboard (was using laptop with ExpressCard earlier) in order to eliminate the potential issue of hardware incompatibility - same issue.

As to magnetic field - wouldn't it affect the tape overall, not just what's sent through Firewire? All three tapes travelled on the airplane at one point - old recordings from overseas trips.

Picture/audio is fine on view finder, but comes out scrambled through Firewire. Most likely if I won't be able to fix the problem, I'll just do a S-Video capture.

Camera is Sony DCR-TRV828E. Tapes are TDK HS90, Sony MP120 and Sony HG120.

[dellsam34]

As to magnetic field - wouldn't it affect the tape overall, not just what's sent through Firewire? All three tapes travelled on the airplane at one point - old recordings from overseas trips.

Yes, you're right. If the viewfinder plays back fine it is not the tape or miss aligned recording, that was my brain fart. Usually problems like this affect all tapes not just certain ones. Is there anything different about those tapes like LP recording or NTSC that cannot be handled by software but the camcorder plays back fine? Have tried to change some settings?

[Colek]

As to magnetic field - wouldn't it affect the tape overall, not just what's sent through Firewire? All three tapes travelled on the airplane at one point - old recordings from overseas trips.

Yes, you're right. If the viewfinder plays back fine it is not the tape or miss aligned recording, that was my brain fart. Usually problems like this affect all tapes not just certain ones. Is there anything different about those tapes like LP recording or NTSC that cannot be handled by software but the camcorder plays back fine? Have tried to change some settings?

I've tried switching around some settings on the camera, but it didn't seem to have any result in capturing software.

One tape is NTSC, other two are PAL. They're all SP.

I am attaching a small portion of one of these captures to this message.

The frames below are one after another (1-2-3) - when the camera seems to be still seeking the tape, it looks alright.

[DB83]

For the purpose of comparison, can you also upload a sample of a DV transfer that works.

[Colek]

For the purpose of comparison, can you also upload a sample of a DV transfer that works.

Sure, there you go.

[DB83]

Thanks for the second clip.


I just wanted confirmation that both transfers were technically identical. Which they are (not that using this mode of transfer they should not be)


The transfer would be a bit for bit copy of what was originally recorded on the tape. The suggestion earlier was that these tapes were recorded in LP mode and that may be 'fooling' the transfer by not playing the tape back at the right speed. Analog playback (s-video) may be more accommodating.

[Colek]

Thanks for the second clip.


I just wanted confirmation that both transfers were technically identical. Which they are (not that using this mode of transfer they should not be)


The transfer would be a bit for bit copy of what was originally recorded on the tape. The suggestion earlier was that these tapes were recorded in LP mode and that may be 'fooling' the transfer by not playing the tape back at the right speed. Analog playback (s-video) may be more accommodating.

Thank you for your reply.

The thing is, as I am capturing the tape, it only shows scrambled on the PC. Playback on view finder is all good along with audio.

I think I'll just move on and do a S-Video capture of these tapes, thank you guys very much for trying to help out

[oln]

If it's analog 8mm tapes lossless S-Video capture is probably nicer anyway unless you get issues with audio out of sync (the camcorder has a built-in TBC so horizontal wiggling shouldn't be an issue). For Digital8 tapes you do want to capture over firewire if possible though. Both the bugged one and the normal one looks like analog though so it's very weird that one would work and the other one not.

Alternatively you could try some different application like winDV and see if it helps.

[october262]

Thanks for the second clip.


I just wanted confirmation that both transfers were technically identical. Which they are (not that using this mode of transfer they should not be)


The transfer would be a bit for bit copy of what was originally recorded on the tape. The suggestion earlier was that these tapes were recorded in LP mode and that may be 'fooling' the transfer by not playing the tape back at the right speed. Analog playback (s-video) may be more accommodating.

Thank you for your reply.

The thing is, as I am capturing the tape, it only shows scrambled on the PC. Playback on view finder is all good along with audio.

I think I'll just move on and do a S-Video capture of these tapes, thank you guys very much for trying to help out

do you still get the scrambled picture if you connect the camera to your TV ??

[Colek]

Thanks for the second clip.


I just wanted confirmation that both transfers were technically identical. Which they are (not that using this mode of transfer they should not be)


The transfer would be a bit for bit copy of what was originally recorded on the tape. The suggestion earlier was that these tapes were recorded in LP mode and that may be 'fooling' the transfer by not playing the tape back at the right speed. Analog playback (s-video) may be more accommodating.

Thank you for your reply.

The thing is, as I am capturing the tape, it only shows scrambled on the PC. Playback on view finder is all good along with audio.

I think I'll just move on and do a S-Video capture of these tapes, thank you guys very much for trying to help out

do you still get the scrambled picture if you connect the camera to your TV ??

Hello,

I have no TV with S-Video IN, so I've plugged it into my capture card. I can play the video through it just fine. But that made some things clearer.

The video is 720x480i - showing NTSC signal. However - Scenalyzer reports the video to be PAL.

I was basing my PAL/NTSC on the tapes earlier because of the markings on the tapes - my mistake.

It seems that Scenalyzer is receiving wrong information from camcorder what is being sent over - it must interpret NTSC video as PAL video - hence the corruption.

I can't find any option in Scenalyzer to change that manually - any ideas?

EDIT:

I've managed to get it working properly using the solution provided on Doom9. Thank you all for helping me out!

[DB83]

For the benefit of others who may have a similar issue it would be useful to provide the solution here.


Simple NTSC transferred as PAL would not give ANY colour whatsoever. SC-Live (Scenanlyzer) or WinDV transfer what they find (or what they believe they have found) - there is no NTSC/PAL setting (as you discovered)


However, your camcorder could well have such a setting. Such as NTSC on PAL tv. Even so the same rules apply for analog transfer so I am more than curious what the 'solution' was.

[Colek]

For the benefit of others who may have a similar issue it would be useful to provide the solution here.


Simple NTSC transferred as PAL would not give ANY colour whatsoever. SC-Live (Scenanlyzer) or WinDV transfer what they find (or what they believe they have found) - there is no NTSC/PAL setting (as you discovered)


However, your camcorder could well have such a setting. Such as NTSC on PAL tv. Even so the same rules apply for analog transfer so I am more than curious what the 'solution' was.

I've linked the thread from Doom9 that had the solution to the issue, but I'll write down what has worked for me.

When I plug in my camera to the computer running Scenalyzer - it's detecting it as PAL. When I push play button in Scenalyzer or on my camera, it remains PAL and the picture is scrambled like shown in posts above.

What has worked for me, is to unplug my camera from PC, start playing the tape on camera and then plug in the camera to the computer. It gets detected properly as NTSC and the picture is not scrambled anymore. I can just rewind to start of the tape and capture the tape all fine.

The camcorder has the option to playback NTSC - on PAL TV and NTSC 4.43. Changing these options did not fix the issue.

EDIT:

Another way to fix it that I found - turn on WinDV with tape running - if picture is scrambled - press Cancel and exit WinDV. When you turn on Scenalyzer, it will capture tape properly as NTSC.

[dellsam34]

It's in the post just click on the link, I knew this was NTSC vs PAL issue, Basically any PAL camcorder (DV or D8) can stream NTSC DV via firewire but Windows is always locked to a certain region, so to fool windows drivers the camcorder is put in playback mode first before launching the stream app so it can detect the video format. I think this has been discussed here before in this forum.

[DB83]

Thanks.


An interesting solution. Still amazed that you actually get colour though unless your camcorder is dual-standard. I thought they were either PAL or NTSC with the NTSC on PAL (also known as PAL60) or NTSC 4.43 as analog playback options.

[Alwyn]

Thanks for that, Colek.

[DB83]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I really should have spotted the obvious (seen it so many times when capturing NTSC tapes when I did not have a PAL60 capable device)


That solid line towards the bottom of the frame is the big clue. And if you measured it your you inevitably have 96 lines >> 576 - 96 = 480.

[dellsam34]

Thanks.


An interesting solution. Still amazed that you actually get colour though unless your camcorder is dual-standard. I thought they were either PAL or NTSC with the NTSC on PAL (also known as PAL60) or NTSC 4.43 as analog playback options.

DV is data, The camcorder data reader doesn't know what format it is, It's up to the OS drivers and DV application to make it a useful video stream. Except for the analog outputs where the camera DV decoder has to unwrap the data and make an analog video out of it. Camcorders can literally be used as data tape recorders/readers using a special app to record anything from or to the computer via firewire onto a D8 or DV tape and the camcorder wouldn't even care as long as it is in a compliant DV format.