1969 Memorex 1" videotape with NASA Apollo (?) material

[Skaperen]

RAID is only useful for live data functionality such as a database you keep customer data in. if you are making the videos available at any time, all the time then RAID may make sense. for everything else, another copy serves just as well and is cheaper (2 or 3 USB HDDs). save the RAID space for what needs to be ready every minute. this from a retired system administrator.

[Cornucopia]

RAID is appropriate for in-use safety, in conjunction with additional verification with checksums. It is not a substitute for backups. Nor are backups a substitute for RAID. They perform different functions at different parts of the workflow.
RAID is on-line, Backups are off-line.

As both a sysadmin, and an editor, I would counter that RAID (my pref is raid10) is totally useful during the normal edit process (assuming a pro process, not occasional hobbyist).


Scott

[Dutchsteammachine]

While we are at it I can have made a 35mm telecine and store it in a vault somewhere in greenland below permafrost, should last a good while.

[dellsam34]

More good news... see a piece of tape under my magnetic developer:


[Attachment 60901 - Click to enlarge]

Clearly visible from top to bottom:
1. Mono soundtrack
2. Helical scan video track.
3. Control pulse track.

I updated Wikipedia page using your picture if you don't mind, It is a perfect shot so it will add more details to the format page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_A_videotape

By the way the latest compact size type A recorder for this format is the Ampex VPR-10 with color and digital TBC.

[nogginvid]

While we are at it I can have made a 35mm telecine and store it in a vault somewhere in greenland below permafrost, should last a good while.

Think you mean a telerecording/kinescope/film recording? A telecine is where film is transferred to video, not video to film. (In broadcast circles it's the name of the real-time film scanner that plays film and outputs video signals)

[nogginvid]

Master file possibilities: Raw RGB, huffyuv, lagarith, Utvideo.

I'd also add FFV1 to that list. It's being standardised as an archive codec, uses lossless compression to reduce file sizes a bit, and has CRC checksums to confirm file integrity (avoiding bit rot)

I think a lot of people use it in the MKV wrapper - but there has been a move to also standardise it in the more widespread (in broadcast) MXF wrapper.

[nogginvid]

Found these 3 video tapes at an online auction in the USA, they have since been send to me in Europe and should arrive by
Thoughts?

If they came from the USA - I suspect you may find more NTSC (B&W and Colo(u)r) Ampex Type A VTRs in the US for replay of them. For something this potentially valuable, I'd go to a well regarded company like DC Video?

https://www.dcvideo.com

However their fees may be more than you are willing to pay - as they are mainly used by broadcasters and other rights holders to restore newly discovered archive material and will charge accordingly I suspect.

They list Type A as a supported format.

[Quint]

RAID is only useful for live data functionality such as a database you keep customer data in. if you are making the videos available at any time, all the time then RAID may make sense. for everything else, another copy serves just as well and is cheaper (2 or 3 USB HDDs). save the RAID space for what needs to be ready every minute. this from a retired system administrator.

I am of different opinion (except for the argument that it's more expensive), but don't want to argue.

I'd also add FFV1 to that list. It's being standardised as an archive codec, uses lossless compression to reduce file sizes a bit, and has CRC checksums to confirm file integrity (avoiding bit rot)

That's interesting! Does that really mean, that if you f. e. did a bad copying with some bits set wrong, you will get an error when try to read the file?

[Dutchsteammachine]

Build-in checksum sounds interesting.

I could probably request raw RGB video so I can easily decode to any codec I want. I think when it comes to storage media, location and codec the best thing is to diversify. Never put all your eggs in one basket.

Of course I will take care of the original tapes too.

I talked with dcvideo some time ago, just send them an email asking for an estimate. Ought to be more expensive with shipping included.

I prefer to do things "locally" and not ship abroad. Found three places in the Netherlands that could do it, but some said 3 tapes is not worth it for them to set things up and condition the recorder.

[nogginvid]

RAID is only useful for live data functionality such as a database you keep customer data in. if you are making the videos available at any time, all the time then RAID may make sense. for everything else, another copy serves just as well and is cheaper (2 or 3 USB HDDs). save the RAID space for what needs to be ready every minute. this from a retired system administrator.

I am of different opinion (except for the argument that it's more expensive), but don't want to argue.

I'd also add FFV1 to that list. It's being standardised as an archive codec, uses lossless compression to reduce file sizes a bit, and has CRC checksums to confirm file integrity (avoiding bit rot)

That's interesting! Does that really mean, that if you f. e. did a bad copying with some bits set wrong, you will get an error when try to read the file?

Yes - and you can check the integrity of a file in-situ (corruption doesn't just happen when you copy a file)

[nogginvid]

Build-in checksum sounds interesting.

I could probably request raw RGB video so I can easily decode to any codec I want. I think when it comes to storage media, location and codec the best thing is to diversify. Never put all your eggs in one basket.

I'd seriously suggest using a standard codec and wrapper - not raw video. Almost any broadcast capture from a VTR will be 4:2:2 YCbCr (RGB isn't a broadcast standard really), and for monochrome content you'd hope that the Cb and Cr channels could be ignored.

Of course I will take care of the original tapes too.

I talked with dcvideo some time ago, just send them an email asking for an estimate. Ought to be more expensive with shipping included.

I prefer to do things "locally" and not ship abroad. Found three places in the Netherlands that could do it, but some said 3 tapes is not worth it for them to set things up and condition the recorder.

If the places have to 'set things up and condition the recorder' that suggests they don't routinely do transfers on that format - that would set off alarm bells for me. Sounds like an ad-hoc set-up rather than a facility set-up to do this stuff regularly.

DC Video are one of the 'go to' archive transfer places in the US - and if your tapes are NTSC then they are more likely to be able to transfer them. They are also broadcast experts so will generate nice, compliant, broadcast standard files I'd expect.

I can understand your wish to stay local though - you don't really want to have to ship tapes like that around in case they get lost in transit.

[Skaperen]

Build-in checksum sounds interesting.

I could probably request raw RGB video so I can easily decode to any codec I want. I think when it comes to storage media, location and codec the best thing is to diversify. Never put all your eggs in one basket.

and be sure every recording can be read/played back before committing to them, just as you should with backups.

[Skaperen]

While we are at it I can have made a 35mm telecine and store it in a vault somewhere in greenland below permafrost, should last a good while.

Greenland is already turning green.

[Dutchsteammachine]

While we are at it I can have made a 35mm telecine and store it in a vault somewhere in greenland below permafrost, should last a good while.

Greenland is already turning green.

Iceland?

[Dutchsteammachine]

Found someone an hour driving from here that has a type C machine.

I have been told by a company that a type A tape will have its audio track aligned with the cue track on type C.

Hoping to get a short piece of each tape played soon. This will allow me to verify the contents on the tape by audio.

Then I will know if the labels hold true and I can work on shipping to he company.

Unfortunately no success talking with three companies in the NL that got type A machines. Either stopped replying or not worth it for them to service a machine for just 3 tapes.

[Dutchsteammachine]

Tomorrow is the big day! time to find out what's on them once and for all.

Very exciting.

[Dutchsteammachine]

Scanning head detail of Michaels' type C machine... with the "Landing" tape threaded.

[Cornucopia]

Oh that brings back memories!


Scott

[rrats]

When will the video be released

[rrats]

Bro

[Dutchsteammachine]

I got a reply from the video transfer business, they may not want to actually do the transfers because of copyright concerns. The tapes may not only contain the raw NASA feeds, but also network footage and commentary. If the latter is the case they are concerned with the end-goal of the transfers, because technically I would not have rights to any network content.

I need to know whether they will still send the files even if they ID the content to be from broadcasters after transfers.

I'm not going to pay 200-300 dollars per tape only for them not to send the files back.

[ConsumerDV]

It would be nice to recover these old tapes, but I wonder what sort of historical significance do they bear. At best, they contain the originals of TV broadcasts, which I doubt. Methinks that these are copies for rebroadcast on local TV stations. They may contain some original NASA footage as well as TV broadcasters' own commentary. AFAIK, NASA was using film cameras at that time, even some 70-mm film cameras. The 2019 movie Apollo 11 is made from "a newly discovered trove of 70mm footage, and more than 11,000 hours of uncatalogued audio recordings", taking us "straight to the heart of NASA’s most celebrated mission". I have this movie on BD, it is spectacular. As for TV commentaries, they are secondary, tertiary to the missions themselves.

OTOH, I don't think that a transfer business should care about what is on tape. Their business is to do the transfer and let the customer tackle legal implications.

[Cornucopia]

No, transfer businesses are on the hook for "illegal" transfers, as well. It IS their business to do due diligence respecting copyrights.

Scott

[Dutchsteammachine]

Chicken and egg problem. How will I know the contents of the tapes and then which networks I will have to contact without having transfers to review?

[rrats]

What?! How can a transfer business decline a transfer like that. Isn't their job just to digitise

[Quint]

Scott is of course right, but you can indemnify them from any liability, which is common practice.

[dellsam34]

The transfer service should not be liable as long as there is no "copyright materials" warning was found on the tapes or their contents. Commercial media always have such warnings on the box, the media itself and in the content of the media such as movies.

[Dutchsteammachine]

It is probably a live off-air recording, so there are going to be no such warnings. There could even be multiple networks on one tape if the recorder switched around. There werent color bars/test tones on the two tapes that I played so I cant imagine they were a professional duplicate.

Regardless, I have been talking with an other company based in the US and asked them about their native capture format and how they can deliver besides h264;

"Native is normally dvAVI in Priemere.
We can capture using BlackMagic AVI 10bit YUV for huge files (~100Gb/hour); will need a hard drive that you supply or we supply for $65.
We can transcode this into ProRes HQ if you want."

dvAVI seems adequate for capture and delivery?

[sum_guy]

Even if this was copyright material, as long as you are viewing it yourself, not distributing, I'm pretty sure this would fall under "Fair Use". Even if it's copyrighted you need to know by who, then you would simply ask for permission. If these films aren't labeled as copyright material, who do you even ask for permission? Are these films are shot by the same camera person, same studio, same network whatever, if it's a "collage" of clips it will be hard to determine who if anybody holds the copyright. If these films are so precious, what are they doing in a give-away or yard sale? (I don't know how you got them).

I seriously doubt that anyone who's alive today cares about the films anymore, except for people like us.

[ConsumerDV]

Regardless, I have been talking with an other company based in the US and asked them about their native capture format and how they can deliver besides h264;

"Native is normally dvAVI in Priemere.
We can capture using BlackMagic AVI 10bit YUV for huge files (~100Gb/hour); will need a hard drive that you supply or we supply for $65.
We can transcode this into ProRes HQ if you want."

dvAVI seems adequate for capture and delivery?

100Gb/hour is 28 Mbit/s, seems right for DV. So, one hour is 12.5 GB, you don't really need a hard drive for this when you can have a 128 GB SD card for $20.

DV-AVI is Microsoft's container for DV. I would not call it native, after all what you have is old analog recording. I suppose they ingest analog video through Firewire using some sort of Canopus box, which is why they say that DV is native for them. Wait, they say they ingest as 10-bit via BlackMagic? Why is it only 100 Gb/hr? Maybe it is 100 GB/hr? And then they downconvert it to 8-bit DV because it is "native for Premiere"? But they ask whether dvAVI is adequate for "capture and delivery", hmm. No reason to convert DV into ProRes if they actually capture DV.

Some users on this forum claim that DV breaks up into macroblocks easily, and that it butchers chroma OTOH, your recordings may be monochrome, so who cares for chroma. DV is well-supported in the industry, so there is some benefit to using it. Apple promised to continue supporting it on the OS level for M1-based Macs.