VHS captures not playing well on TV

[bbmaster123]

Hi again

so I've captured ~30 tapes in huffyuv with virtualdub, and more or less finished my editing. Now I'm getting ready to have some of these go out to family and all that.

I was testing different output formats but seem to having a bit of trouble. My 4k tv wont load up huff or lag files, uncompressed works but isn't worth it, and I've tried avc, hevc, and mpeg2 in various containers which do all load up.

The issue is that either they are being displayed as interlaced video in a progressive frame so you see the combing, or the video frames look correct but the motion seems almost telecined when it isn't. To elaborate, it appears as though the frames are being displayed out of order. I did double check that the output files are indeed still interlaced, tff.

Of course all these files play back fine on pc, but for my family who knows nothing about anything video, I'll need it to just load up and look right.
for broad compatibility with this type of playback what program should I create the final files with, and with which encoder/settings?

My googling just gives results that say once your intermediate files are done with editing you can create copies in the best formats for your intended delivery...for me, what format is that?

thanks!

[DB83]

The question is not what delivery format is best for me but what is best for my intended audience.


The family, your intended audience, might be comfortable with mp4 avc (h264) but equally, since you are dealing with VHS, simple, straight-forward, DVD may also be appropriate. And for the latter just feed your edit in to avstodvd, create the dvd and use imgburn to put the folder on to a disk.

[bbmaster123]

thanks but I'm not going the disc route, in this case everyone wants purely digital copies

I tried h264 avc but on my tv that format was showing full combing, as if the video was being displayed as progressive without deinterlacing.
I also tried mpeg but the frame order appeared incorrect in motion, though no interlacing artifacts.

I was using virtualdub2 to create these files. The tv I'm testing the files on is an android smart tv playing the files off a usb

[DB83]

'Broad Compatability' is a bit of a mine-field since your family will inevitably have different displays and different capabilities for playback.


This 'combing' that you see could well be down to the tv attempting to upscale the video and de-interlace.


My suggestion is that, if you so not intend to go down the dvd route since that would handle de-interlacing and upscaling correctly, is that you encode as progressive.

[davexnet]

You should be able to double rate de-interlace in Vdub2 and encode to H264.
First verify that your Huffy source is Chroma 422 (by using mediainfo)

Open the source in Vdub2, video/filters/deinterlace

select interlace mode/interpolate using Yadif - double frame rate (either top or bottom field first. You can verify the correct choice
by using the right arrow key to step forward frame by frame in a section showing some steady movement. If you see a strange back and
forth movement change the field order)

Setup the encoder and save the video as normal (may have to correct the aspect ratio depending on particulars of the source)

[bbmaster123]

ah, I was trying to avoid deinterlacing. I have qtgmc set up so I would use that over yadif, but I thought I wouldn't have to go there. I read all over that you should let the tv ha

I thought I had an encoder setting set incorrectly since the mpeg file looks properly deinterlaced with weird motion and the AVC h264/HEVC h265 files look not deinterlaced but with correct motion.

So the consensus then is to deinterlace at double rate then lossy compress to AVC?

[davexnet]

What is your target output file? Interlaced AVC doesn't have as good hardware support, my LG TV won't play them at all.
If you want to keep it interlaced you're down to mpeg-2.

If you're used to QTGMC, de-interlace in your script and encode. Double rate de-interlace maintains the temporal fluidity

If you'd like a second opinion, post a sample of your file here to the thread

[jagabo]

You don't have to deinterlace. Just encode interlaced with the correct field order. It sounds like you specified the wrong field order when you encoded before (fast jerky motion).

[bbmaster123]

What is your target output file? Interlaced AVC doesn't have as good hardware support, my LG TV won't play them at all.
If you want to keep it interlaced you're down to mpeg-2.

target is interlaced, 4:2:2, avc/hevc/mpeg - I'm not loyal to any particular format. I'd prefer to keep it interlaced, but I'll do whatever I need to do to get the result I want.

If you'd like a second opinion, post a sample of your file here to the thread

I assume you mean a sample of the source huffyuv video, not the new encode? I'd be happy to share samples tomorrow

Just encode interlaced with the correct field order

Source file is tff.
You're right, in motion it does look as though I set bff by mistake, but I swear I selected top field first. If not, I will facepalm hard. I'll have to look again tomorrow.

thanks everyone for your input so far!

[jagabo]

Many devices won't play avc or hevc with 4:2:2 chroma subsampling. Sticking with 4:2:0 is safer (all commercial distribution formats are 4:2:0). Post before and after samples.

[davexnet]

Look like I was wrong about HW support; my own TV does play them, but I have yet to pin down which particular
options it doesn't like; some, which play OK on the PC the TV rejects. Looks like I have some research to do, probably FFmpeg options

[bbmaster123]

So I double checked my files, all are 4:2:0 8 bit, interlace flag set to top field first, 4:3 720x480 @ 29.97fps. I have 3 files, one in HEVC, one in AVC, and one in MPG but I seem to have accidently put it in a Mastroka container, whoops. Medium face palm

I'm making some new samples because I want to use a different segment to upload. In the meantime, I've attached the info I'm currently getting in Mediainfo.

[davexnet]

Does the MBAFF AVC sample play with the combing on the screen?
Can you post a video sample ?

[bbmaster123]

you know what, I just figured it out.
The way I did it was I took my archive files, edited those, exported those in full process mode, and this tape (and now possibly some of the others) ended up saved as bff. I then took those edited copies, exported the sound to work on that, but when I went to merge the audio and make copies, I selected tff since that's what I thought it was. So this was a bff file tagged as tff and thus played back incorrectly.

I haven't tested yet on the tv, but I was able to confirm on the pc by playing with the deinterlace settings in my player to intentionally cause the issue.

wow

I can still upload a sample if you'd like but I assume its now unnecessary.

[davexnet]

you know what, I just figured it out.
The way I did it was I took my archive files, edited those, exported those in full process mode, and this tape (and now possibly some of the others) ended up saved as bff. I then took those edited copies, exported the sound to work on that, but when I went to merge the audio and make copies, I selected tff since that's what I thought it was. So this was a bff file tagged as tff and thus played back incorrectly.

I haven't tested yet on the tv, but I was able to confirm on the pc by playing with the deinterlace settings in my player to intentionally cause the issue.

wow

I can still upload a sample if you'd like but I assume its now unnecessary.

Sounds good - how did you encode? FFMpeg? I came up with this after scouring around on the internets.
I couldn't find a 4:3 source, so I cropped a 16:9 video

ffmpeg -i mc.mkv -c:v libx264 -flags +ildct+ilme -f mp4 -vf "crop=1440:1080:270:0,scale=w=640:h=480:interl=1" -c:a libmp3lame -b:a 224K -ac 2 out7.mp4

[bbmaster123]

I used avidemux with the output set to avc, which mediainfo tells me used lav
I haven't played with any of the quality settings so I could test on the tv quickly, but I manually set the interlaced flag, bff, and 4:3 in the gui

It now looks correct on the tv, I'll have to test on my other older tv tomorrow, and then I'll be satisfied that it should work for everyone

[DB83]

I had noticed you mention tff in your OP. Did not bring it up then since AFAIK a capture can be either - obviously an encode has to match.


But when I first captured way back when avis were typically bff (although I seem to recall a somewhat confusing notation that my capture program referred to this a 'Field A') and mpeg were bff


Personally, I would never assume that your content will work for everyone unless you know the specs of each and every tv and the means - usb etc. - that they will play them. Certainly some older equipment would only play h263 (xvid, divx) whereas dvd is always a common format.


And while it is true that interlaced content should be kept interlaced there has to be good reason to encode as progressive otherwise why would these functions exist.

[bbmaster123]

But when I first captured way back when avis were typically bff (although I seem to recall a somewhat confusing notation that my capture program referred to this a 'Field A') and mpeg were bff

ahaha yep that's a bit confusing. Now that you say that, I vaguely remember that too, but I would've been pretty young at the time.

Personally, I would never assume that your content will work for everyone unless you know the specs of each and every tv and the means - usb etc. - that they will play them.

I know ~80% of the TV's, this is mostly for immediate family, though yes your right. I'm making a bit of an assumption because I'm fairly certain the oldest equipment would be my ~10y/o "smart" tv. semi smart. If it plays there it should play on newer tv's too, and ofc on pc, plex, kodi....and I'm not uploading for streaming, I'll just put stuff in online storage for download.

And while it is true that interlaced content should be kept interlaced there has to be good reason to encode as progressive otherwise why would these functions exist.

well that's true. I'd bet they came about because new digital tv's of the time had no ability to deinterlace on the fly which created the initial need. Just a guess though.

[jagabo]

There has never been a digital HD TV that cannot deinterlace on the fly. Half of all broadcast/cable/satellite HDTV is interlaced 1080i. People would be screaming if their TV's didn't deinterlace that content. Of course, media players (standalone or built into TVs) sometimes lack deinterlacing.

[bbmaster123]

There has never been a digital HD TV that cannot deinterlace on the fly. Half of all broadcast/cable/satellite HDTV is interlaced 1080i. People would be screaming if their TV's didn't deinterlace that content. Of course, media players (standalone or built into TVs) sometimes lack deinterlacing.

Yes that's true, I have a free to air antenna and almost all channels are 1080i
Well then the reason we have deinterlacers must be because of pc playback since pc monitors don't deinterlace on their own. I think.

In any case I'm going to attempt to keep my tapes interlaced for now, and I'll run QTGMC if anyone complains that its just not working
I still want to double check my files on my older tv, which I'll get to later today

[pm-s]

ah, I was trying to avoid deinterlacing. I have qtgmc set up so I would use that over yadif, but I thought I wouldn't have to go there. I read all over that you should let the tv ha

I thought I had an encoder setting set incorrectly since the mpeg file looks properly deinterlaced with weird motion and the AVC h264/HEVC h265 files look not deinterlaced but with correct motion.

So the consensus then is to deinterlace at double rate then lossy compress to AVC?

TV is never as good as QTGMC

also have you tried encoding the video in interlaced h264? I've tried and both of my TVs seem support them


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Also deinterlacing seems to improve as the years pass by. Cheap 2011 tv blended fields, mid-range 2014 model removed half of them and BRAVIA from 2020 did a solid job interpolating them (better than any virtualdub filter ever could). bbmaster123 states that he has 30 tapes and 4k television. I can't even imagine how long would it take to process all of them using QTGMC when 3 minute promotional clip takes nearly 20 minutes to finish

[bbmaster123]

also have you tried encoding the video in interlaced h264

I did and its working now, its seems on this one tape I must've rendered it out as BFF but assuming all my files were TFF that's how I tagged it during encode, causing the tv to screw up the image. Once I figured that out, it played well

Also deinterlacing seems to improve as the years pass by

definitely. My tv is a hisense from 2019 with android and seems to be doing quite a good job. I'm pretty sure its doing some amount of motion estimation

I can't even imagine how long would it take to process all of them using QTGMC when 3 minute promotional clip takes nearly 20 minutes to finish

Well I'm not doing any resizing, or anything else really, just the deinterlace set to medium. I get typically 80-95fps on my 10700k @5ghz. I can imagine upscaling to 4k would take forever!

[ccbradley]

The topic of compatibility across devices is always quite a huge area of discussion in the video streaming world. My advice would be to not try to reinvent the wheel here. This problem has been address in many standards. At the very least you should start by conforming to these conventions first and optimize further if needed. For example, see the sections “Profiles” and “Levels” in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Video_Coding

When encoding h.264 in ffmpeg for example, you can specify your profile and level compliance with the -profile and -level flags. https://itectec.com/superuser/how-to-set-a-h-264-profile-level-with-ffmpeg/

HEVC has similar concepts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding_tiers_and_levels

[pm-s]

also have you tried encoding the video in interlaced h264

I did and its working now

Great!