Digitizing VHS in 2021

[d75oh]

I recently digitized over 4 hours of VHS tapes from the '90s. I used a hardware RCA-cables-to-thumb-drive real-time converter.

I have around 20 MP4 files all at 1280x720p, some of which are over 1GB for just 10 minutes. Others seem to have digitzed at around 5% of that size. I've done editing as needed, in Linux.

Many files have variable frame rate, even going up to 105+ in the outputted MP4, which is crazy; no wonder some are so huge. I have OpenShot, ShotCut, HandBrake, VLC - all the usual tools. But they have so many profiles, and few to none which address media that originated as VHS.

Obviously, I want minimal loss of quality, but I should be able to convert these to around 352x240 video, mono audio, and a constant framerate - and end up with I'd think, +/- 2Mb per minute - that is, around 2Gb total for 4 hours, not 24Gb of MP4. I want to stay away from MKV here because of TV compatibility.

The goal here is to drop them into a batch job and get an optimal compression/framerate/dimensions, no matter what the original is.

There's not much recent forum talk about VHS, but I'm sure there are many out there with the same dilemma. I see 5-10+ years old forum chatter about this, and I'm certain there are better profiles to convert in 2021.

[orsetto]

By capturing directly to progressive MP4 in hardware, you may have shortchanged your ability to create optimal standard smaller files for normal use. You're not going to want to hear this (none of us ever does), but your best bet is likely to start over and re-capture the tapes following one of the long-recommended cap software and lossless-compression settings known to result in the best possible "master captures". These then lend themselves better to being reduced in size to MP4 with minimal quality loss, again by following long-recommended known-good workflow suggestions.

Others may have more specific ideas for working with the files you already have. You'll get better targeted advice if you provide the brand/model of USB capture device you used to make them (as well as the capture software used, and the capture settings). A MediaInfo utility data log from one of your unusually large MP4 files would also help narrow down good suggestions. You might get a request to post back with a small sample of one of your MP4s (just a few seconds snippet) so members here can run tests directly on them.

[dellsam34]

Not to mentien the wrong resolution used, In 2021 720p is history, No TV's left that have native 720p panels, HD and 4K TV's can't display 720p without a compromise, Either leave it at 720x480 or upscale in software to 1440x1080 if your TV sucks at upscaling 480i contents. If you are capturing lossless always keep a master copy at 720x480 (ideally crop to 704x480 because 16 pixels are just black).

I agree with Orsetto, You need to redo it all over again.

[orsetto]

No TV's left that have native 720p panels, HD and 4K TV's can't display 720p without a compromise

Yikes! I'd never thought of this factor until you just mentioned it. Thanks, I think?

All my TVs (and that of everyone I know) are standard HD, not 4K, so I've never seen an example of this compromised performance with 720p sources. Hope its not really atrocious, as I have quite a few 720p files in my collection (from clean digital sources, not VHS captures).

[Alwyn]

HD and 4K TV's can't display 720p without a compromise

Please explain? Why is there a compromise for just that resolution, or does it apply to every resolution that is not native to the TV? I throw all sorts of resolutions at my 4k TV and they look great on it.

[dellsam34]

Because of the upscaling, Some TV's are good, some arn't. 720p is kind of double loss, First from 480 to 720 in software then 720 to 1080 in TV.

[clashradio]

Hi dellsam34. I realize I'm a dinosaur; I just bought a Sony 4K oled after having my Sony Vega 1080i crt for 20 yrs. The Vega's 3D comb filter is awesome as well as the 4K's.

My transfer projects are 99% BD delivery so I always deinterlace/IVTC & upscale to 720p. 720 BD's accept 23.976fps & 59.94fps. I don't think [59.94fps] 1080p is a legal frame rate for BD's?

I just got a good working Panasonic 1980P and Datavideo TBC-1000 was going to transfer some for vhs for BD delivery. Sure everything looked totally awesome on the HD crt, and I had concerns before I stepped up to 4K that my laserdisc/vhs projects wouldn't hold up to anything newer/better than a crt. But so far all the old 720P BD's look great on this new Sony. Maybe it's because of its upscale processing? When viewing 4x3 material I have it pillar-boxed so that helps.

[dellsam34]

BD standard has more legal frame rates and resolutions than you think. Check the wikipedia page, Again you are just wasting your effort on 720p for VHS, it is not the recommended resolution, and I'm assuming the frame is stretched horizontally isn't it?.

[Alwyn]

I'm assuming the frame is stretched horizontally isn't it?.

Why would it be? If it's encoded properly the TV will display

When viewing 4x3 material I have it pillar-boxed so that helps.

[Cornucopia]

No, 1080p60 (or 59.94) is NOT a legal option for authored HD BD, only for UHD (4K) BD, and then only using HEVC codec.

For data files, roll your own however you want.

But dellsam34 is kinda right about 720p. If it is 720+pillarbox = encoded 1080, it will be presented as-is on FHD screen (with pillarboxing of course). If it is encoded natively to 720, it OUGHT to generate pillarboxing live during playback, but this is highly dependent on the player & settings, and it is easy for settings to be wrong and stretch to 1080 (because "16:9, right!?").

Personally, my preference is to leave anamorphic SD as anamorphic SD (and also leave interlaced as interlaced) during encoding, and author and play on a good system so it plays back properly on its own (4:3 or 16:9 depending on source, and deinterlaced live in the TV hardware). Then there is much less processing and interpolation - guessing - one must do post capture, so it should look cleaner (also takes less time). And for archiving, it is truer to the original.


Scott

[d75oh]

Appreciate all the feedback.

The "ClearClick" converter seems to have only AutoDetect and 640x480 as save options. The latter is still a bit too big and for optimal filesize, would need reworked anyway.

I get what you all are saying in that it would be better to redo it all and have native files at the final resolution, but yeah I dread that idea...

So I used Handbrake's "Legacy - Normal" profile. Also I changed:

"Dimensions" from 720p and other varying resolutions, to 538x358
"Video" / "Framerate" to "Constant Framerate" to "23.976 (NTSC Film)"
"Audio" / Changed "Mix" to "Mono"
Kept the "Video Encoder" at H.264

Batch converted everything with the above specs.

Some of the outputted videos were as low as 7% of the original filesize. Others still reduced, but only to 80% or so of the original. To me, they look very good, so I'm going with this. Overall, 14.3GB of 4hr, 16 min of source is down to 4.6GB and I can't tell much difference.

Glad that I started a conversation and I think others will benefit from this (and know better before they digitize!)

Now - any tips on how to create a DVD-like menu with text for each video, for a thumb-drive, if there is such a thing? I'm looking into "AutoRun" and "AutoPlay". The elders have a BD player so I'd like an interactive menu with backgrounds. Just to dump these MP4s onto a thumb drive, isn't going to have the same interactive experience.

[lordsmurf]

ClearClick is a terrible device, as bad as Easycap (aka Easycrap)

That video will never be good, barely viewable.

Your assumption that VHS conversion is better in the 2020s is wrong. Quality has degraded, not improved. The best hardware for conversion was in the 2000s, maybe early 2010s. Everything you buy now is cheap Chinese junk, or bad afterthought HD cards )that do SD poorly). VHS is now mostly an evergreen topic. So what you see from 5-10 years ago is still accurate now, and probably will be in another 5-10 years.

Do not do 352x240, that's actually worse than the VHS tape was (which was native of about 300x480).

[d75oh]

lordsmurg - my capture card is "Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1255", bought around 2009. I'd had it installed in a box with "MythDora", a variant of "MythBuntu" for DVR use in Linux. It worked fine, and 5+ years ago, I digitized many VHS tapes with it, but it is now EOL.

6/2021 - I tried capturing with this card on an offline Win7 machine, via VLC. Though the card was detected, VLC did not capture input.

I grew frustrated to buying the "ClearClick" card. It may be "cheap Chinese junk", but it seemed to do what I needed.

What are you suggesting that I do? I have 3 functional VCRs, and the Hauppuage card. If there is a better way to re-capture from my source, I'd love to hear how.

[dellsam34]

"Dimensions" from 720p and other varying resolutions, to 538x358

What standard is this? never heard of it before, It certainly won't be compatible with DVD for sure. And you are going from h.264 to mpeg-2, Good lord.

You can re-capture using your legacy card under Win7 using AmarecTV or Vdub, not VLC.

[d75oh]

538x358 is exactly half H/V of what the ClearClick natively saved everything to, in Auto Mode. Is it a standard? No I imagine not. It is the same 4:3 ratio, and so far, has been playing back well.

[Cornucopia]

If clearcrap saves ANYTHING natively to 1076x716 (as you say it does), it is truly poor indeed, and anything arising from that will have an uphill battle attempting to be even compatible with other systems much less of good quality.

Here's a good rule for you (as rules go): capture your sources at the max possible quality available to that format. You can always dumb it down & muck it up later if you want, but you can never get back something you've lost/destroyed.
For VHS, as Analog SD source material, that would be 720x480 @ 29.97i lossless, in NTSC land. Capturing at higher resolution is just making up false samples, capturing at less is pre-decreasing your quality before you even start.

By all means, go ahead and do what you want: it is your time, money, and aesthetic. Just don't expect others to recommend something that is non-standard, or not best practices.


Scott

[d75oh]

I appreciate that "ClearCrap" is seen as a junk Chinese company. Well, from the 'raw' output from the card capture - trying to input/edit that 20x MP4 filesize in VLC, ended up in no video. The card was detected (in both Linux and Win7 machines), but no editor actually would input the (coax and/or the RCA input). "ClearCrap" did. I struggled for hours trying to get VLC to display the card input MP4 from the Hauppauge saves. Only "ClearCrap" worked.

If there's something to be learned here, maybe its around software on capture cards. 10 year old capture cards are still the standard nowadays; Hauppauge is struggling in this environment, but that doesn't solve the downscaling problem.

[dellsam34]

Again VLC is not the right tool for capturing analog video, Vdub and the likes are.

[usually_quiet]

Because of the upscaling, Some TV's are good, some arn't. 720p is kind of double loss, First from 480 to 720 in software then 720 to 1080 in TV.

Even 720p video on a 720p TV will always be upscaled a little, although it is really not much to be concerned about. The panels on 720p TVs and computer displays aren't 1280 x 720. They are something like 1366 x 768.

That being said, going forward 1080p TVs will probably be hard to find. I have been looking at TVs in the past few months. UHD TVs have taken over the market for 43-inch and larger TVs and most of the HD TVs left on the market are 32-inch or smaller and nominal 720p resolution.

[dellsam34]

I don't think it will be a problem from now on, Once the SD footage is in HD 1440x1080 (or 1920x1080 with black pillars) any future resolution is a multiple of integer numbers of HD, 1080, 2160, 4320 ... and so on.