VideoHelp Forum


Try StreamFab All-in-One and rip streaming video! Or Try DVDFab and copy Blu-rays! or rip iTunes movies!
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 15 of 15
Thread
  1. Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Lithopolis, OH United States
    Search Comp PM
    I had been upscaling my videos in Virtualdub2 using the lossless codec called Lagarith Lossless but they always seem to end as being hilariously large files. Can anyone explain this? Why do lossless files always end being large?
    Quote Quote  
  2. Lagarith is lossless compared to the uncompressed version. That uncompressed version is going to be about 2x larger than the lagarith file.

    On most scenarios, you can get slightly better compression ratios by using lossless temporal compression. Lagarith is intraframe only (with the exception of null frames cases) . But ffv1, x264 in lossless mode can be set to utilize temporal compression
    Quote Quote  
  3. Kawaiiii
    Join Date
    May 2021
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    I can't see the sense in questions like this.

    It's like asking: why if I should carry 1000 clothes I need a luggage bigger than the one I would need carrying only 10 (or 1) ? The answer is : because they take a lot of much more space. A lossless codec store ALL of the original data/information and doesn't remove anything from it. That's exactly what a lossless codec does: retain EVERYTHING. So.. you keep all 1000 clothes in your suitcase.. not only 10 (or 1) like with lossy. That's why you need a bigger suitcase. There's really nothing to understand.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Search Comp PM
    My understanding is this. Take 5 frames of video. A lossy codec such as H264 would look at the second frame and say "the only part that has changed from the first frame is the small movement at the top right, so I'll only store that change", and so on. Only the changed bits of the next frame are stored (at regular intervals, though, a full frame is saved). This means the file size can be drastically reduced compared to... Lossless or uncompressed, where each frame, in it's entirety, is saved. That's why lossless files are so much larger than lossy files. Lossless, though, is much better for editing because you're not relying on the editor trying to work out what the following frames should be after you've made an edit and you don't lose data/quality when you re-save.

    And when you're upscaling, doubling the size/resolution increases the number of pixels by 4 times.

    I think that's why...
    Last edited by Alwyn; 9th Jun 2021 at 21:07.
    Quote Quote  
  5. Member netmask56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Lossless is a close approximation to the actual real size - non lossless formats are by definition inferior as they have removed portions of the original data considered redundant, hence loss of quality but a smaller file.
    SONY 75" Full array 200Hz LED TV, Yamaha A1070 amp, Zidoo UHD3000, BeyonWiz PVR V2 (Enigma2 clone), Chromecast, Windows 7 Ultimate, QNAP NAS TS851
    Quote Quote  
  6. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    My understanding is this. Take 5 frames of video. A lossy codec such as H264 would look at the second frame and say "the only part that has changed from the first frame is the small movement at the top right, so I'll only store that change", and so on. Only the changed bits of the next frame are stored (at regular intervals, though, a full frame is saved). This means the file size can be drastically reduced compared to... Lossless or uncompressed, where each frame, in it's entirety, is saved. That's why lossless files are so much larger than lossy files. Lossless, though, is much better for editing because you're not relying on the editor trying to work out what the following frames should be after you've made an edit and you don't lose data/quality when you re-save.

    And when you're upscaling, doubling the size/resolution increases the number of pixels by 4 times.

    I think that's why...
    @Alwyn, you are confounding "LossLess vs Lossy" with "Intra-Frame vs inter-Frame (x-Frame)" compression. And yes, it is possible to have LL/IF, LL/xF, Ly/IF, and Ly/xF types, even though most often one sees LL combined with IF and Ly combined with xF.
    e.g. AVC-Intra is Ly/IF, while x264 in lossless mode can still be Inter aka LL/xF, if you set the settings right.

    Lossy is smaller/more efficient than lossless because it throws away valid possibly needed data. Or "quantization error residuals". Aka losing quality. A la @netmask56's "approximation".

    Interframe is smaller/more efficient than intraframe for the reason you mentioned above - saving only interframe differences (usually motion, but also noise, edits...). So only partial pictures, and/or motion vectors, and/or placeholders.


    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 10th Jun 2021 at 01:27.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Lithopolis, OH United States
    Search Comp PM
    What would be a good way to reduce the file size while still keeping the quality? I really do not want to older stuff like XVID but I need to do something to reduce the file size.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
    What would be a good way to reduce the file size while still keeping the quality? I really do not want to older stuff like XVID but I need to do something to reduce the file size.
    Use x264, 8-bit, preset Slow, CRF (quality factor) 16. Can do this easily in Vdub2. Save file as mp4 or mkv
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	x264.png
Views:	47
Size:	56.4 KB
ID:	59419  

    Last edited by davexnet; 11th Jun 2021 at 19:30.
    Quote Quote  
  9. Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Lithopolis, OH United States
    Search Comp PM
    Does that method for animation, gaming, etc.?
    Quote Quote  
  10. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Why don't you do some test encodes, comparing the Lagarith to my proposal above?
    Quote Quote  
  11. Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Lithopolis, OH United States
    Search Comp PM
    I did the encodes and it looks like I was able to save some space. Does the preset effect how end video is going to be? And does it really matter if the codec is x264 8-Bit/10-Bit?
    Quote Quote  
  12. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    The presets give different/more methods of optimizing the videos, reflected in the respective encode speed. You can try "faster" or "medium" as an alternative. You may not see a difference.

    10 bit better preserves fine gradations of tone/color, assuming this detail exists in your source
    Last edited by davexnet; 15th Jun 2021 at 12:48.
    Quote Quote  
  13. Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Lithopolis, OH United States
    Search Comp PM
    HTML Code:
    General
    Complete name                            : ***********.avi
    Format                                   : AVI
    Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
    File size                                : 1.84 GiB
    Duration                                 : 4 min 46 s
    Overall bit rate                         : 55.1 Mb/s
    Writing library                          : VirtualDub2 build 44282/release
    
    Video
    ID                                       : 0
    Format                                   : Lagarith
    Codec ID                                 : LAGS
    Duration                                 : 4 min 46 s
    Bit rate                                 : 53.7 Mb/s
    Width                                    : 960 pixels
    Height                                   : 720 pixels
    Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
    Frame rate                               : 60.000 FPS
    Color space                              : Y
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 1.294
    Stream size                              : 1.79 GiB (97%)
    
    Audio
    ID                                       : 1
    Format                                   : PCM
    Format settings                          : Little / Signed
    Codec ID                                 : 1
    Duration                                 : 4 min 46 s
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Bit rate                                 : 1 411.2 kb/s
    Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
    Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
    Bit depth                                : 16 bits
    Stream size                              : 48.1 MiB (3%)
    Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
    Interleave, duration                     : 17  ms (1.00 video frame)
    Interleave, preload duration             : 500  ms
    HTML Code:
    Complete name                            :************.mkv
    Format                                   : Matroska
    Format version                           : Version 4
    File size                                : 177 MiB
    Duration                                 : 4 min 46 s
    Overall bit rate                         : 5 177 kb/s
    Writing application                      : Lavf57.79.100
    Writing library                          : Lavf57.79.100
    ErrorDetectionType                       : Per level 1
    
    Video
    ID                                       : 1
    Format                                   : AVC
    Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile                           : High@L3.2
    Format settings                          : CABAC / 5 Ref Frames
    Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
    Format settings, Reference frames        : 5 frames
    Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
    Duration                                 : 4 min 46 s
    Bit rate                                 : 3 663 kb/s
    Width                                    : 960 pixels
    Height                                   : 720 pixels
    Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
    Frame rate mode                          : Constant
    Frame rate                               : 60.000 FPS
    Color space                              : YUV
    Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
    Bit depth                                : 8 bits
    Scan type                                : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.088
    Stream size                              : 125 MiB (71%)
    Writing library                          : x264 core 157 r2935M 545de2f
    Encoding settings                        : cabac=1 / ref=5 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=8 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=2 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=50 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=16.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
    Default                                  : Yes
    Forced                                   : No
    Color range                              : Limited
    Matrix coefficients                      : BT.470 System B/G
    
    Audio
    ID                                       : 2
    Format                                   : PCM
    Format settings                          : Little / Signed
    Codec ID                                 : A_PCM/INT/LIT
    Duration                                 : 4 min 46 s
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Bit rate                                 : 1 411.2 kb/s
    Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
    Sampling rate                            : 44.1 kHz
    Bit depth                                : 16 bits
    Stream size                              : 48.1 MiB (27%)
    Default                                  : Yes
    Forced                                   : No
    Here are results I got with a video and I used a newer version of the Mediainfo to get this information. I cannot export the upscaled files to mp4 in Virtualdub2 so I used mkv for the other one and I wonder if I am better off using something like VidCoder or something?
    Last edited by Guernsey; 16th Jun 2021 at 09:51.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    mp4 may be disallowed because of the uncompressed audio. To compress the audio select
    Code:
    Audio/full processing mode
    Audio/compression (choose FFmpeg/aac )
    Now mp4 should be available.

    What are you trying to achieve, exactly?
    Quote Quote  
  15. Member
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Lithopolis, OH United States
    Search Comp PM
    I just want good compression with low disk space that is all. I was looking for something that doesn't go beyond 2GB just for a 10 min video when I upscale it.
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads