New device, getting strange wavy / dot like patterns on the capture?

[Soundguy]

That I've never seen before and weren't present on any other device I've used. What are they? and how do I get rid of them?

Device is a Happauge USB live 2, I'm recording in AmarecTV, but the patterns are there whatever I preview in. Source is PAL VHS.

Sample attached.

[davexnet]

Looks like herringbone noise. Try a different cable, S-video cable Vs. composite, different VCR

[Soundguy]

Looks like herringbone noise. Try a different cable, S-video cable Vs. composite, different VCR

Thanks, what's herringbone noise? Just so I have a clearer idea of what's happening.

It doesn't appear with other devices, same cables, same VCR, so why would it manifest itself with this particular device?

If this helps further diagnose the issue, I've found that tapping on the AV scart connector, where the comp hooks up to the VCR, seems to make it go away for a split second. Included a sample to illustrate this, from about 3 seconds in I managed to make it go a couple of times.

The only other VCRs I have are faulty, except one, but it's identical to the one I'm using.

[jagabo]

In this case it's the Chroma carrier of a composite signal leaking through to the luma. After some heavy filtering in AviSynth...

[Soundguy]

In this case it's the Chroma carrier of a composite signal leaking through to the luma. After some heavy filtering in AviSynth...

Wow, you did a good job cleaning that up.

So why did that not happen with the device I was using before, is my device faulty?

[Alwyn]

Jagabo the Wizard in action!

[Sharc]

In this case it's the Chroma carrier of a composite signal leaking through to the luma. After some heavy filtering in AviSynth...

So why did that not happen with the device I was using before, is my device faulty?

Your former device had probably a better comb filter (3D comb filter) for separating the chroma from the luma.

[DB83]

I am sure that jagabo will post his avisynth script for the 'fix' if you ask him nicely.


One thing I can almost guarantee though is if you did not have a headache before you will have a 'blinder' after reading it


But with this 'wiggle' maybe the scart connector is loose and causing the interference. What type is it ? One of these 'bits' of tin you plug rca cables in to or a fully cabled one ?

[oln]

The video chips in these capture cards are very bad at handling the unstable video signal coming from a VCR, which leads to the horizontal wiggling you see and the card not separating chroma/luma (color/brightness) very well on this kind of input. That said there are things that can make it worse like bad cables, issues with the vcr and so on. Common budget solution here is to put a dvd-recorder, often a panasonic, in between the vcr and the capture card which in practice means using the way better video decoder in the dvd-recorder to deal with the unstable video.

I can't find my comparison with a panasonic right now, but here's an example comparing a raw capture of a dodgy tape with one that's been passed through a Pioneer DVD-440H. The difference is pretty stark (the panasonics will generally be a tad better still.)

[jagabo]

I agree with oln, a line tbc is needed. I think the OP's previous caps were so blurry all the noise was blurred away. For what it's worth here's the script I used:

AviSource("amarec(20210521-2210).avi") 
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
src = last

Spline36Resize(320, height)

MergeChroma(last, Blur(0.0, 1.0).KNLMeansCL(d=5, a=2, s=4, h=8, channels="UV").Sharpen(0.0, 0.7))
QTGMC(InputType=2, Sharpness=2.0, EZDenoise=2.0, DenoiseMC=true)

Sky = Tweak(hue=-70).ColorYUV(cont_v=-240).Tweak(hue=70)
hsmask = MaskHS(startHue=270, endHue=320, minSat=30, maxSat=70).Blur(1.0).BilinearResize(sky.width, sky.height)
Overlay(last, Sky, mask=hsmask)

Spline36Resize(src.width, height) # nnedi3_rpow2 would work better.

prefetch(8)

[Soundguy]

Thanks jagabo for the script, you guys are really coming through.

These seem to be my options now:

1) Use filter

Pros = looks nice and clean, won't cost anything
Cons = Will be extra work and encoding, looks nice and clean (VHS "grunge" actually adds character for some viewers)

2) Put a DVD recorder in the chain

Pros = Will be cheaper than buying a VCR
Cons = Will still cost money, will take up limited space, don't really need one otherwise

3) Buy a replacement VCR with S-Video

Pros = Will be an upgrade in quality
Cons = Most expensive option, hard to find VCRs with S-video through regular outlets (none on Amazon I could find), will have to buy a used one = higher chance of failure.

At the moment I'm preffering 3, but I would appreciate some advice on good VCRs to buy, and where to get them from. Any links for ones currently on sale, stockists etc appreciated.

Budget £100-300 approx.

[lollo]

For a VCR guide have a look here http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/1567-vcr-buying-guide.html

Sometimes they also have VCRs for sale.

For a Panasonic ES10/15 (for example) acting as "cleaner" there are many many post in this forum and in digitalfaq forums

Also consider that many of us have both S-VHS VCR with line TBC and Panasonic ES10/XXX (I rarely use the second, but YMMV)

[jagabo]

An old s-vhs deck with line tbc in decent working condition will cost your about US$500. You may still have A/V sync problems. An old Panasonic ES15 will cost you about US$100. It has a a good line TBC, a decent 3d comb filter, and s-video output. A/V sync may still be problematic.

BTW, is the picture supposed to be all greenish like that?

[Sharc]

Similar for Panasonic EH50. One can find these probably more easily these days than ES10/ES15 for 50 ... 100 USD. Maybe almost free with a faulty HDD which does not matter for using it in passthrough mode.

[DB83]

There are a few listings on fleabay that offer reconditioned units w/guarantee.


I only found one online UK supplier with a fixed price but there was no specific detail of what they were selling.


Of course it is getting harder by the day to find quality units that will actually 'work'

[Soundguy]

Thanks for the input everyone

There are a few listings on fleabay that offer reconditioned units w/guarantee.


I only found one online UK supplier with a fixed price but there was no specific detail of what they were selling.


Of course it is getting harder by the day to find quality units that will actually 'work'

Don't seem to be much other than DVD combo thingies, but how about this? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383927352691?hash=item5963da7d73:g:Ev8AAOSwDVVgFYBt

Has S-Video at least. Bear in mind that I don't need anything professional grade for this or even particularly high end, just something that works and doesn't have that bleeding. I'm using a Phillips VR550 at the moment, to give an idea of whether it would be an upgrade or not.

BTW, is the picture supposed to be all greenish like that?

I honestly don't know, the dynamic lighting in the game can sometimes look greenish.

[DB83]

VHS/dvd-combis tend to restrict s-video to the dvd output. Here is another listing for S-VHS


https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1311&_nkw=svhs+vide...order&_sacat=0


Jagabo previously mentioned the desire to have a TBC. They do come in high end VCRs but still the accepted route is through certain dvd-recorder models ie Panasonic ES-10/15. Get a working one (I did find an on-line seller offering these for £60 or less). And there will always be a market for working units so simply sell it on after your have done with it.

[Soundguy]

VHS/dvd-combis tend to restrict s-video to the dvd output. Here is another listing for S-VHS


https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1311&_nkw=svhs+vide...order&_sacat=0


Jagabo previously mentioned the desire to have a TBC. They do come in high end VCRs but still the accepted route is through certain dvd-recorder models ie Panasonic ES-10/15. Get a working one (I did find an on-line seller offering these for £60 or less). And there will always be a market for working units so simply sell it on after your have done with it.

How about this? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224468563453?hash=item34435e75fd:g:iBUAAOSwDB9gpqa7

I can't do click n collect due to mobility issues related to the health stuff we discussed earlier.

[DB83]

It's listed in LS's post on his forum but £250 is quite a gamble. So I am not going to commit myself either way.

[Soundguy]

It's listed in LS's post on his forum but £250 is quite a gamble. So I am not going to commit myself either way.

If it's good enough for LS it's good enough for me (despite his crude analogies ). There's a 30 day refund return on it, so is a gamble I'm willing to risk. Thanks.

[Soundguy]

I've got the new VCR. It's in very good condition and works thankfully. A noticeable improvement in quality but there are still comb like artefacts, they are very apparent on edges, like the edge of the overpass in the sample. The VCR came with no cables so I'm just using the composite cable I already had.

Would switching to S-Video eliminate these artefacts?

FYI, the VCR is a PANASONIC NV-HS950

[jagabo]

S-video will get rid of the dot crawl. It won't help with the aliasing.

[Soundguy]

S-video will get rid of the dot crawl. It won't help with the aliasing.

So are the comb artefacts aliasing? It's never looked as bad as that with prior equipment. How can I prevent or minimise it?

[Soundguy]

S-video will get rid of the dot crawl. It won't help with the aliasing.

So are the comb artefacts aliasing? It's never looked as bad as that with prior equipment. How can I prevent or minimise it?

Just realised that you might have been talking about general PS2 "jaggies" when referring to aliasing, that's fine, PS2 does that. I'm talking about the dotted, comb pattern seen on the edges. Is that dot crawl?

[DB83]

Si.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl

[Soundguy]

Si.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl

Thank you, that looks close to what I'm seeing on my sample, so hopefully the S-Video cable arriving tomorrow will fix it. Strange that I've never seen it before on more inferior equipment I've used though.

[DB83]

It's all relative. Maybe the 'inferior' equipment had a decent comb filter to correct these issues.


One of my capture cards was a Hauppauge WinTV PCI card that had a reasonably good comb filter. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Hauppauge did not support it beyond Win XP. The card is still in my dual-boot system and, I guess, with the correct cabling( IIRC the audio had to be routed via the card to the audio card or it could have been the other way around - and that cable has gone awol) would still work under XP. But for the little capturing I do now (and I have alternative 'capture' methods - DV via a ADVC 300) I do not intend to upset my system going from the USB-Live to the PCI card.


But I am glad that the new vcr is working for you. Back in the day, in between the PCI based card and the USB-Live, I took a gamble on the ADVC-300 which actually cost more than what you now paid and due to my health (and lack of wealth) it was not money I could afford to lose. But the gamble paid off and helped to produce the 'cakes' that 'Mr Kipling' was known for.


I truly hope that the yt viewers appreciate the time, trouble and expense you have gone to.

[jagabo]

It's best if you can avoid the dot crawl by capturing s-video. But you can reduce it with software without too much damage:

before:

[Attachment 59113 - Click to enlarge]

after:

[Attachment 59114 - Click to enlarge]

[Soundguy]

It's all relative. Maybe the 'inferior' equipment had a decent comb filter to correct these issues.


One of my capture cards was a Hauppauge WinTV PCI card that had a reasonably good comb filter. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Hauppauge did not support it beyond Win XP. The card is still in my dual-boot system and, I guess, with the correct cabling( IIRC the audio had to be routed via the card to the audio card or it could have been the other way around - and that cable has gone awol) would still work under XP. But for the little capturing I do now (and I have alternative 'capture' methods - DV via a ADVC 300) I do not intend to upset my system going from the USB-Live to the PCI card.


But I am glad that the new vcr is working for you. Back in the day, in between the PCI based card and the USB-Live, I took a gamble on the ADVC-300 which actually cost more than what you now paid and due to my health (and lack of wealth) it was not money I could afford to lose. But the gamble paid off and helped to produce the 'cakes' that 'Mr Kipling' was known for.


I truly hope that the yt viewers appreciate the time, trouble and expense you have gone to.

Likewise I appreciate the time you and others have given to help me with this, even though my lack of expertise and responses may have been tedious or even stubborn at times (most of that was borne from frustration my end, at making a hash of something I really wanted to do a good job of). Looking back through the archives you and many other responders have been on this forum for years, dealing with all kinds of questions, it's a credit to you and them that you're willing to help people like me. I'd buy you all a beer if I could (well in your case a bottle of red I assume).

Unfortunately my problems persist, the VCR with S-Video eliminated the dot crawl, and at last I was getting captures that I was happy with, the quality far exceeding what I had before. Two blissful days ensued, continuing with the project, then Murphy's law struck and the VCR packed up. It started with an intermittent F 04 error, now it won't power on at all. I am able to send the VCR back for a refund thankfully, but the tape is stuck inside, I'm really hoping this ebay seller is reliable enough to send me the tape back. I've messaged them explaining how important it is.

You wouldn't think that the "simple" act of capturing a few VHS tapes could result in so much frustration and so many pitfalls, I must have experienced most of them this last week or so. If you know Edvard Munch's "The Scream", that's pretty much me trying to capture these tapes.

I'm trying to stay positive though, I know what needs to be done now, it's just a case of finding a working VCR and hoping that this ebay seller is responsible enough to get my stuck tape back to me, if they don't I will obviously be very, very upset.

[jagabo]

the VCR with S-Video eliminated the dot crawl, and at last I was getting captures that I was happy with, the quality far exceeding what I had before. Two blissful days ensued, continuing with the project, then Murphy's law struck and the VCR packed up. It started with an intermittent F 04 error, now it won't power on at all.

That isn't surprising at all. Most sellers on ebay simply stick a tape in the player, press Play, see a picture on the screen, and call it "working". The reality is it has old oxidized belts and pinch roller that are about to fall apart. Old leaking capacitors just waiting to heat up and die. Unless you find a recently reconditioned (by someone who knows what they're doing) deck you're taking a big risk.