VideoHelp Forum


Try D∑V∑D Fab Video Downloader and rip Netflix video! Or Try D∑V∑D Fab and copy Blu-rays! or rip iTunes movies!
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9
Thread
  1. Member wolfdogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Search Comp PM
    I have a raw capture here. Its only been mirrored and inverted. (Not sure why RGB24 insists to capture inside out).

    source
    vhs to extron7sc upscaled 480p (have a nice higher res capture also, but dont want to push it here yet until i find what's best quality)
    Toshiba w614, no svideo out, using composite rca to bnc, then vga out to cap card, vga->dvi adapter

    capture 720x480
    datapath vision rgb e1
    virtualdub rgb24
    huffyuv yv12 median / adaptive tables

    destination
    personal storage, final archiving family data, med-high compression, deleting all source after processing
    h264 acm or mpeg192 stereo, avi (maybe mp4, prob avi)

    I would like to know if this looks like a solid capture (first 3 links), if there is any major glaring issues here in not seeing, but moreover, what are the squiggly zig-zag lines from? Is that a mistake? How do i grapple those. I saw one post say they were "hum bars". I googled that, yielded nothing except grey static, etc.. Any other filters i might need on this source that im missing? By the way, i plan to move to home videos next, the animation was just used for initial testing, but will be part of the lot of captures-to-come.

    normal zoom,
    https://pasteboard.co/K0dxN8t.png

    400x zoom
    https://pasteboard.co/K0dxj5r.png

    a different frame, 300% zoom, you can see it in the middle of the eyes there.
    https://pasteboard.co/K0dFEtG.png

    There was some frames, from another capture, not rgb, but yuy2, well here ill grab those, where it was really exaggerated.
    https://pasteboard.co/K0dIsDOm.png and same piece post compression https://pasteboard.co/K0dHi2F.png
    That's not the one where the black was really exaggerated but you can see the (chroma?) there being off, I'm not sure how to fix that bright white line, next to the black, unless that's artists rendering, but you can see other issues i there i think.

    Is that a chroma shift? TO me looks like timing issue on scan lines or something.

    So what is this called?
    Any filters on vdub to combat it?
    I tried Flaxen VHS already, but beyond the chroma shift, which didn't help, i cant figure out where its from or how to deal with it.

    Also, notice the colorations in the vcr print (sp.. etc..). I see some blue and red chroma shift in there too is that? Is that related to the issue?
    Last edited by wolfdogg; 3rd May 2021 at 14:10. Reason: clarifying setup.
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    Try capturing in Huffy 4:2:2 chroma, 720x480
    Quote Quote  
  3. Member wolfdogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    Try capturing in Huffy 4:2:2 chroma
    In Vdub, I dont see that option, but i see YUY2 YUV 4:2:2 Interleaved, which is what I used on the YUY2 mention there. Is there another name for the one you mention, or did you mean in general use any 4:2:2? The Planar options in vdub wouldnt work.
    I do see two other YUV 4:2:2 on bottom now that you mention , HDYC Rec. 701, v210 (10 bit).

    OK maybe you mean capture at half the chroma? e.g. 4:2:2? It seems the RGB24 one was more crisp.
    Last edited by wolfdogg; 3rd May 2021 at 16:26.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    Well I doubt if anyone on here has this hardware workflow and you are going through several 'hoops'


    Firstly, you do NOT have IMO a RAW capture. VHS is an interlaced medium and should be captured as interlaced. Is it that upscaler (even though your sample has not actually upscaled - VHS is typically captured as 480i) converting it to progressive ?


    Then we have a myriad of cables and connectors to arrive the DVI input on the capture device - a device that was never, again my own opinion, meant for VHS.


    The specs for that capture device state composite or component with component to dvi relevant for 480i/p capture.


    The artefact appears to my eyes to be cable/line noise and your setup could well be magnifying it.


    So, firstly, do a test capture without the upscaler - these never work well with VHS - to see if that improves the issue. Of course you will require another cable to go from composite to dvi.
    Quote Quote  
  5. You need a line time base corrector. And you don't want to deinterlace and upscale while you capture. You have a film source that should be captured interlaced SD then inverse telecined back to 24 fps film frames. Then clean and upscale if you want.
    Last edited by jagabo; 3rd May 2021 at 19:18.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Member dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Member Since 2005, Re-joined in 2016
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by wolfdogg View Post
    vhs to extron7sc upscaled 480p Toshiba w614, no svideo out, using composite rca to bnc, then vga out to cap card, vga->dvi adapter

    capture 720x480
    datapath vision rgb e1
    virtualdub rgb24
    huffyuv yv12 median / adaptive tables
    That's a terrible way of capturing analog video, This is worse than HDMI route.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    College Station, TX, USA
    Search Comp PM
    yeah..

    The signal has a lot of problems before beating it up with a Scaler and Converter.

    The sharp spikey lines in the black lines are timing errors direct from the vcr. Only a line time base corrector can help that, and your only gonna find one on a better vcr.. those are mechanical errors.. the vcr is fighting you.

    Then the chroma is shifting due to poor cabling or aging capacitors somewhere.. either the output of the vcr, cables or the input circuitry of the Scaler.. its hard to tell without swapping things in and out to isolate the offender.. it could be a combination.. all of this gear is old.

    And finally you've got some awful sharpening going on there causing the ghosting around the objects with hard lines.. probably something in the input settings of the Scaler is attempting to raise the signal to noise ratio before ripping its height and width to make it fit a larger resolution. You kind of have to know not to expect much from a Scaler since its trying to put back in something that isn't real.. and its going to look like a child finger painting all over the image.. it just won't look real. Sharpening by its very nature destroys real resolution and replaces it with "fake" ghosting.. in the hopes the human brain will "blur" it out and "think" its higher resolution.. that trick doesn't really work in the digital realm anymore.. especially since we got above 2K.

    If your stuck with the vcr you have.. simpler is probably better.. capture at a real resolution like 720x480 or less for cartoons, 352x240 might be better since that will match the "real" size of the chroma image being superimposed on the luma channel and minimize the chances of "bleed" or "shifting". The timing errors are a symptom of the reliability of the vcr wheels and gears.. a frame time base corrector can help.. one with a velocity corrector like the one in later panasonic DVD recorders would be better.. but using DVD recorders as pass-thru is still controversial, and only later models had the velocity correction feature.

    Clearing up the signal path, by swapping cables and eliminating Scalers and unnecessary conversion gear would also help a lot.

    Accepting that playback will look better in a window on a PC as opposed to an HDTV will also help.. blowing things up in size.. never helps. It is what it is.. you can't put in resolution and accuracy that wasn't there to begin with.. its like putting lipstick on a pig.. it really isn't going to make things better. You can imagine it looks better to make yourself feel better for buying gear.. but there is a reason studios rescan the negatives at 4K and upload them to streaming services these days.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member wolfdogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Portland, OR, USA
    Search Comp PM
    Thank you for the feedback. I thought this was going to be a good setup, darn. Well, i was recommended, ill find the link later, that a scaler has the TBC feature, or equivalent built into it. Example, this extron documentation talks about correcting bad frames. I felt that was all i needed. The problem i have been trying to solve was a years long virtualdub capture sync issue, when vhs straight to a haupage usb live crapola. so i looked to a tbc, priced them, didn't find anything under 350/400, out of my hobbyist range ATM, so as you can imagine i was excited to see someone having success with scalers, something i hadn't really thought of before.

    The scaler supported analog, as opposed to HDMI, so i figured $40 wasnt a bad deal. Well it turns out it cleans up the video nicely. I have an option where i can turn on or off the 2:2 pulldown, and it says it detects 3:2, but maybe thats auto, i don't see that on/off switch in the menu, as i do for the 2:2. Its lowest scale is 640x480, I have had luck with that, the 480p, 720p, 480 6hz, 720 60hz, 1080i 60hz, 1080p 60hz captures. I would rather keep the video compressed, as it should, and let other hardware scalers to the work later. Therefore the goal of the scaler was simply for the TBC effect.

    Now that i had an Extron 7sc, and haupage usb live, that will NOT get a preview or cap on VirtualDub anymore, i decided to get a new card. I have also been experimenting with VirtualVCR, AmCap, and a couple others. Anyhow, as i was saying the Extron, well, its RGB. Thats cool, cause its capturing RGB, isnt it? so signal doesnt change at all. Now, Vdub has RGB24 capture, thats cool isnt it? no color conversion yet. Now can filter with still no color conversions, ideally. You guys would know better, so please feel free to (politely) correct me here where im mistaken. I set huffyuv to yv12, im confused at how if vdub is set to capture at rgb24, and huff to yv12, whats really happening there. An explanation on that would be helpful. There's a lot of docs there, and I'm a bit overwhelmed i think with that.

    Now, lets get to mechanical. I tested, as mentioned, connecting the VCR straight to the cap card, to rule out the scaler as the terrible mangling of the video interpolation, or whatever its called. Since i purchased the Datapath RGB card, it only takes RGB. @DB83 the DVI portion of it, is still just a connector, its not actually Digital, no HDMI, etc.. I don't like the connector type either.

    The mechanical SUCKS on the W614 Vcr i found. I wasn't able to connect it straight to RGB, using composite, as you can imagine, i was able to use one of my adapters to push it through a vga to rca converter box. I still saw the same issue on the signal. That rules out the scaler.

    Since the only way i can capture, is through my scaler, I would like to try to get a clear VCR signal into it, to get a few frames to see what you guys think of that, since this person touted it so highly. (need to find the link still for you). Again, i wasnt planning on scaling (blowing) up the resolution with it, although to my unknowledgeable self it did sound wise at the time in hindsight. Well, i know better, however I still wonder, doesn't the hardware in this scale it as good as tv hardware, if not better, since its made for it, and professional? Just a thought anyway.

    So i took your feedback, and that is mine. Can you guys double back and please give me some final thoughts on this in a constructive way that will work in the confines of my setup? I was hoping to capture with vdub huffyuv (@yv12?) with format 720x480, or 640x480, via scaler, which already deinterlaces it i believe. I can set the 2:2 pulldown, i thought totally should be doing that for the capture, then capture at full frame, no cropping.

    Then later run it through anything, staxrip, vdub h264/ac3, handbrake, whatever. I just want to make sure im feeding it the best signal i can. The vcr sucks, so ill be changing that. Any recommendations for under $50, and $100? I just need a clean playback. TBC or not, to fill out this workflow pattern, to see if I can get a decent capture. Ill let you guys be the judge of that. Not sure if it will be crappy, but it sounds like you guys are saying it will most assuredly. I would like to proof it, with a few frames. I need a decent VCR first. Ill see if i can adjust the heads on the other two that i have here. One is a dvd v9700, is that VCR any good?

    Oh, and im totally not capturing audio through it, im running that through the haupage capture, and can also use my soundcard, everything is ran though the mixer.

    Ok, open to suggestions on specific parts of the workflow above. Thanks for the feedback
    Last edited by wolfdogg; 10th May 2021 at 17:25.
    Quote Quote  
  9. Member dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Member Since 2005, Re-joined in 2016
    Search PM
    Analog video conversion to digital is defined according to the Rec.601 standard back when the need to digitize analog tapes arose, All capture cards follow this standard. Scalers, HDMI converters, DVI/RGB/VGA adapters don't, Therefor they cannot guarantee the quality of capture desired, They are good for displaying a signal on a monitor but they cannot generate a digital video file up to the Rec.601 standard. Most of those devices don't even have a 480i and that's a red flag for analog capturing.
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads