a more compressed "uncompressed AVI" codec in VirtualDub?

[clashradio]

Hello,

I transferred a few analog Hi-8 tapes via Legacy before realizing I could copy them using the DV output. I used VirtualDub for analog, and Vegas Pro 16 for DV. The difference in file size was huge. I think DV AVI is 13gb for every one hour; forgot how big the analog AVI for one hour but was much larger.

Is there a codec in Virtual Dub that is still uncompressed, yet would be equal to a DV AVI? I have some vhs tapes to digitize and I'm thinking whichever codec ratio of 1hr/13gb will be good enough quality. I used uncompressed RGB/YCbCr.

Thanks

[davexnet]

Try UT codec
https://www.videohelp.com/software/Ut-Video-Codec-Suite

[Cornucopia]

Not quite.

DV is 5.5:1 compression of YUV 4:2:0.
UT is ~1.8 - 2.9:1 of YUV, RGB, etc (equivalent to most other lossless codecs).

In between is visually-lossless (but usually still mathematically lossy) codecs like ProRes, DNxHD, Cineform, etc which are ~2.5 - 8:1 depending on level/quality chosen.

So assuming still same YUV 4:2:0 image,

Where SD DV is ~13GB/Hr, or 25Mbps,
Uncompressed SD is going to be ~61GB/Hr or 137.5Mbps
Lossless SD will average around 2.2:1, so will be ~ 27.5GB/Hr or 62.5Mbps
Visually lossless probably will vary from 10-20GB/Hr, or 23-45Mbps.


Scott

[davexnet]

I got 2.43 GB, 34.9 mb/s, for 10 minutes of 720x480 video using UT codec YUV420.
Works out to 14.58 GB per hour

[KarMa]

FFV1 has the best ratio that's actually usable, for true lossless compression. Lagarith is a good second place but faster.

[Cornucopia]

@davexnet, one example could have special circumstances, but that is not what is being experienced overall. And my seasoned expectation agrees with KarMa - FFV1 then Lagarith. But even those would rarely crack 3:1. If a codec could regularly do that, we would all be using it all the time.


Scott

[oln]

I got 2.43 GB, 34.9 mb/s, for 10 minutes of 720x480 video using UT codec YUV420.
Works out to 14.58 GB per hour

You want to be a bit careful with using YUV420 utvideo for analog video capture, you could end up screwing up chroma interlacing as it halves color resolution in the vertical direction. What you generally want to be using for SD video capture is the YUV422 BT. 601 variant.

[lordsmurf]

via Legacy

?

before realizing I could copy them using the DV output.

And get degraded 4:1:1 or 4:2:0

Is there a codec in Virtual Dub that is still uncompressed, yet would be equal to a DV AVI?

No.

I used uncompressed RGB/YCbCr.

Equally bad. Use a lossless.

FFV1 has the best ratio that's actually usable, for true lossless compression. Lagarith is a good second place but faster.

FFV1 has its uses, but lots of software doesn't like it.

I got 2.43 GB, 34.9 mb/s, for 10 minutes of 720x480 video using UT codec YUV420.
Works out to 14.58 GB per hour

Crippled chroma. If you want 4:2:0, just do an MPEG.

[clashradio]

@lordsmurf

-Isn't s-video and composite considered legacy connections?

-I figured coping the analog Hi-8 tapes via Firewire was better than s-video, even with the 5:1 compression of DV. Sort-of the same concept as copying via Firewire for miniDV and not s-video.

-[in VirtualDub] uncompreessed RGB/YCbCr as far as I now is totally uncompressed, is that not correct? I plan on doing some editing in my NLE (noise reduction, color correction etc). Please explain why you recommend capturing lossless vs. uncompressed?

[Cornucopia]

isn't analog, isn't SD, isn't hi8 considered legacy? "use the right tool for the job", and in general the right tool for legacy tech is a legacy workflow.

I'm assuming what lordsmurf would say is that both are equal/equivalent content-quality-wise, but that lossless is less taxing on your storage subsystem (with barely noticeable difference in taxing your processor) than uncompressed, so lossless is the preferred option.

Scott

[Alwyn]

-I figured coping the analog Hi-8 tapes via Firewire was better than s-video, even with the 5:1 compression of DV. Sort-of the same concept as copying via Firewire for miniDV and not s-video.

I wouldn't agree with that. Hi8>Digital is an analogue capture/encode either using a USB card or a DV converter. Either way, you're encoding analogue to digital. On the other hand, MiniDV>Firewire>computer is simply a digital transfer and is preferable to using s-video (analogue to digital).

[Cornucopia]

-I figured coping the analog Hi-8 tapes via Firewire was better than s-video, even with the 5:1 compression of DV. Sort-of the same concept as copying via Firewire for miniDV and not s-video.

I wouldn't agree with that. Hi8>Digital is an analogue capture/encode either using a USB card or a DV converter. Either way, you're encoding analogue to digital. On the other hand, MiniDV>Firewire>computer is simply a digital transfer and is preferable to using s-video (analogue to digital).

there's a big difference between analog sources (e.g. 8mm, hi8) and digital (d8) when using a device like a d8 camera, however. the digital IS just a stream copy and capture as you said. the analog, on the other hand, must first be digitized & compressed THEN gets streamed & captured.

the fact that this occurs in realtime makes it less obvious what is going on, but those extra steps must be taken into consideration when comparing this transfer workflow vs the analog-to-digital usb/card type methods, because those extra hidden steps do bake in a loss of color quality and the creation of compression artifacts, while the competing methods may avoid that.


Scott

[clashradio]

Ok I tried capturing with FFV1, VirturalDub gives an errror: oops VD has crashed-an interger division by zero occurred in module VD. I'm able to capture if I switch the bit depth from 10 to 8.

But VirtualDub will not open my script with the 8bit file. Error message: AVISource couldn't locate a decompresser for fourcc FFV1. Below is my script.

AVISource("2.avi")
ColorMatrix(mode="rec.601->rec.709")
AssumeTFF()
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
QTGMC(preset="slower")
nnedi3_rpow2(2,cshift="Spline36Resize",fwidth=960, fheight=720)

The same results happens when I capture with Huffyuv and Lagarith. My version of VirtualDub is VirtualDub2 build 44065.

Do you need a different version of VirtualDub? It is totally overkill to capture uncompressed vs lossless?

[davexnet]

Do you need a different version of VirtualDub? It is totally overkill to capture uncompressed vs lossless?

Lordsmurf and others have recommended the original Virtualdub for capture.

It's not a case of overkill. It's whether your PC/HDD/SSD is fast enough to maintain that rate of data
for an extended period without dropping frames.

[clashradio]

I downloaded VirtualDub 1.10.4 and there aren't all of other codec options. Is there a different version I should be looking for?

[davexnet]

Follow these instructions to install HuffyUV and that will be available
http://lifeofageekadmin.com/installing-huffyuv-on-windows-10-64-bit/

[clashradio]

Thank you davexnet. Can you please provide instructions to install FFV1 as well?

[davexnet]

Thank you davexnet. Can you please provide instructions to install FFV1 as well?

I don't think FFV1 is available as a standalone install or how to make it available through Virtualdub 10.4,
unless you install something like FFDshow. (which is mostly deprecated)

Are you really using FFV1 for capture? Why not just use HuffyUV? Or is the smallest
capture your main concern ?

[clashradio]

Actually the largest lossless capture is my main concern, since it's not recommend to capture uncompressed. That's why I was hoping to capture with FFV1, which I can if I change the bit rate from 10 to 8. However I can't open the .AVS file. I can capture via HuffyUV but the same problem; can't open the .AVS file in VirtualDub2 or 1.10.4.

So I guess I'm half way there if I can at least capture in FFV1 and HuffyUV. Just have to get VirtualDub to open the .AVS file.

[davexnet]

Just don't use

AVISource()

use one of the other source filters.

I still don't understand why you will not use HuffyUV - it's a big saving on space compared to uncompressed,
not as much saving as FFV1, but HuffyUV is faster - less prone to dropped frames

[clashradio]

I'm not opposed at all to using HuffyUV. I do plan to archive the raw AVI files so that's why I wanted the best quality, which I thought was uncompressed but I admit I do have sync issues with the video/audio + dropped frames when capturing with uncompressed.

AVISource() is all I've ever used up til now in my scripts. But that was when capturing uncompressed. Is there a difference in the AVI when capturing with HuffyUV? I did noticed in MediaInfo it lists the scan type as Progressive. Does HuffyUV deinterlace during capture? I really need interlace as I want to use QTGMC to deinterlace.

[davexnet]

HuffyUV is known as a capture codec, it captures the whole stream as-is, it's the same quality as all lossless codecs.
That's why they're called lossless. They use compression that doesn't lose any quality from the original stream
They should all preserve the proper interlacing (Lagarith, HuffyUV, UT codec, etc,etc)

[clashradio]

So far I'm able to cap with HuffyUv, but still getting the error message in VirtualDub when trying to open the AVS "AVISource couldn't locate a decompresser for fourcc FFVH"

Any idea why:
1) I'm getting the error message
2) file shows progressive not interlace?

[jagabo]

You used VirtualDub's private version of ffmpeg to create the huffyuv file. That private version isn't available to the system or other programs. To use AviSource() you need a system installed VFW decoder. I recommend you use LSMASH's LWlibavVideoSource() instead. Or you can install ffdshow and enable the VFW FFVH decoder.

Interlaced and progressive are handled the same with huffyuv. There's isn't really a flag in AVI to specify whether the video is progressive or interlaced. You have to keep track of that yourself and deal with it properly when you filter and/or encode.

[jagabo]

@davexnet, one example could have special circumstances, but that is not what is being experienced overall.

Yes. There are edge cases where the different lossless codecs can have vastly different compression ratios. Try recompressing this Lagarith encoded video with other lossless codecs. x265lossless is the only one that comes close (others will be about 100 times bigger).

If you don't have Lagarith installed you can use LWLibavVideoSource("lag.avi", cache=false, format="yuy2") in AviSynth to open it.

[clashradio]

I have tried LWlibavVideoSource, but I'm getting errors when trying to open in VirtualDub 32 & 64.

Pic on left is when using VirtualDub 32, right is 64

[jagabo]

On the left: The function is LWlibavAudioSource(), not LibavAudioSource(). On the right: you are trying to load the 32 bit dll into the 64 bit version of AviSynth.

[clashradio]

Thank you everyone. Sorry jagabo I was burnt out last night and didn't catch the typo in the audio portion of the script. Once corrected the script opened and is working!

When using Huffyuv, do I capture using RGB, or YUV 4:2:2? I've captured with both and both captured tests work in the script. Can't capture with 10 bit though, only 8.

[jagabo]

You want to capture YUV 4:2:2. That's the closest to what's in the analog signal. Converting to RGB risks losing superblacks and superwhites.

[clashradio]

Thanks jagabo. I think the default for Huffyuv is RGB.

Is there ever a situation that calls for uncompressed capture?