Which of these two methods is best to capture from VHS tapes

[crbd98]

Hello All,

I have quite a few VHS and VHS-C tapes which I copied to DVD 15 years ago. Which of the following processes would be best to capture the tapes?
1. Use the .VOB files in the DVDs directly, extract the MPEG from them using a tool like VOB2MPG and use the resulting MPEGs as master copies.
2. Use the original VHS tapes and capture them with a USB capture device as AVIs using VirtualDub with a lossless encoder, then deinterlace and use the resulting .AVIs as the master copy.

Thanks
crbd98

[dellsam34]

It's a no brainer #2.

[DB83]

+1 But your 'master' copies should be BEFORE any post-capture processing such as deinterlacing.

[lordsmurf]

You must also not use any generic POS capture card. USB is fine, just a comm port, but good card required.

That said, I have nothing against LSI-based recorders. I use those for my own hobby tv/cartoon recordings. But for important stuff, I'll opt for either high-bitrate MPEG (ATI AIW) or lossless AVI (AIW and others). Sometimes capture lossless, encode out to 422 MPEG2.

Neither plan is bad. But specific models of DVD recorder or USB capture card matter.

The VCR matters.

And TBC matters.

[orsetto]

I have nothing against LSI-based recorders. I use those for my own hobby tv/cartoon recordings.

Quick related question for LordSmurf:

Have you ever needed to (or been asked to) convert your JVC/LSI dvd captures to MP4 files? That topic seems to come up a lot, but oddly always when you are busy with other projects so not participating in the active thread. Since you are here now and have mentioned LSI dvd/mpeg capture, it seemed an opportune moment to ask your advice. If you have a workflow you can recommend that creates passable, smaller MP4 files from dvd recorder VHS captures for laptop/tablet/phone use, could you please post a link to wherever you may have discussed it (VH or DigitalFAQ)? Thanks!

My own limited attempts with converting dvd/mpeg VHS captures to MP4 files proved dismal: combing artifacts galore among other issues. If the device can play straight MPEG, I've found ripping the dvd VOBs to unaltered MPEG files far preferable (except for the size, of course). Make MKV works much the same other than resulting in an MKV wrapper, but some devices don't cope well with recorder MPEGs wrapped in MKV. MP4 conversion of commercial dvds, or recorder dvds made from broadcast sources, generally look fine within the context required for portable screens, But any MP4 I've made from a dvd recorder VHS transfer (JVC/LSI or Pioneer/Renasis) looks garbage.

[Sharc]

@crbd98
How should we know what is better? How did you "copy" the tapes to DVD?
Also keep in mind that your tapes have aged 15 more years since you "copied" them to DVD. What is the condition of the tapes today?

[crbd98]

Hello All,

I would also be very much interested in the answer to the question that Orsetto asked LordSmurf, since converting to MP4 will likely be the next step in my pipeline.

Regarding my original question: than you for all your answers. I am very interested in the rationale behind Dellsam34's and DB83's strong opinions favoring option #2 (ingest from the tapes via USB and VirtualDub) over option #1 (extracting the MPEG directly from the VOBs in the DVD created from the VHS tapes). I still have a lot to learn and your insight would be greatly appreciated. The DVDs were created using a LiteOn LVS-9036G DVD& VCR Recorder. After reading some posts in this and other forums (Unfortunately I did not take note of the reference) I *thought* I would get better results with the hardware based approach.

Maybe some more detail about my project could give some more perspective. Like many other people in this forum, I am digitizing my home-video library dating back almost 30 years. I have about 70 hours in VHS, 60 hours in VHS-C, and 60 hours in miniDV. I've taken care of the and am focusing now on the VHS and VHS-C tapes. About 15 years ago, I became concerned with the deterioration of the VHS and VHS-C tapes and copied all of them to DVD using the aforementioned device (LiteOn LVS-9036G DVD& VCR Recorder).

I have to make now a cost-benefit decision: The process to get the MPEGs out of the already generated .VOB files in the DVD is MUCH quicker that if I had to re-ingest all the media directly from the VHS/VHS-C tapes. Also, I am concerned that that quality of the tapes (now, 15 years later) has worsened (I need to double check). I would gladly redo the ingest of all 130 hours if the resulting quality would be considerably better. What would be a good decision approach? Maybe I can try with some of the oldest tapes and compare?

In terms of equipment, I have 2 LiteOn LVS-9036G DVD& VCR Recorder, a VC500 Diamond usb capture card a JVC VHS-C camcorder and a 3 Dell Precision M4800 (i7 quad, SSDs, etc).

Thanks
crbd98

[DB83]

There is nothing wrong with Option #1 and your original method is often suggested as an alternative to vcr >> pc capture. Even some transfer houses will still offer that (or do it without saying so)


It comes down to quality. Let's say, for the sake of argument that you have 2 hours of video per single layer dvd. That works out at 4000 kbps. Your video is also highly and lossily compressed. Convert that to another container format beit mp4, mkv etc. and you lose even more actual quality.


Recapture in a lossless format and the bitrate/file size increases substantially. But it is also easier to do post-capture processing and less loss in actual quality for the final transcode.

[dellsam34]

Yeah, MPEG-2 is crap, if you have to stay in that format just leave it alone, Don't try to convert it to another lossy format, don't try to de-interlace it because it will come out as chicken $hit. Otherwise just take your time and do one tape at a time no rush, As long as the tapes are stored in climate controlled room there is nothing to worry about, Tape degradation happens due to excessive heat, cold or moisture.

[oln]

My own limited attempts with converting dvd/mpeg VHS captures to MP4 files proved dismal: combing artifacts galore among other issues. If the device can play straight MPEG, I've found ripping the dvd VOBs to unaltered MPEG files far preferable (except for the size, of course).

The mp4 container also supports mpeg-2, so you don't have to re-encode to put the mpeg2 video from the dvd into a .mp4 file. (some audio formats may not be supported, but re-encoding that is less of an issue if needed.)

[crbd98]

Thank you DB83. You got to the heart of the matter: "It comes down to quality." I did an experiment capturing one of the VHS tapes with VirtualDub using the Lagarith lossless encoder and ended up with a file over 35GB, as opposed to the 4GB MPEGs for a 2 hour video. A factor of 10 in terms of storage but that is not too bad (5-6 TB in total for all my the VHS/VHS-C). After Dellsam34's comment about MPEG-2, I became motivated to try with a couple of tapes and compare. I think I now have a plan. thanks to all!

[lordsmurf]

Yeah, MPEG-2 is crap,

MPEG-2 is a wide format. MPEG-2 @ 4:2:2 with 20+ mbit 2-pass VBR is not much worse than lossless visually. The GOP helps shrink the bitrate, but makes it less ideal to edit or restore.

DVD-Video spec MEPG-2 depends on bitrate and content.

Don't paint MPEG with a broad brush.

Quick related question for LordSmurf:
Have you ever needed to (or been asked to) convert your JVC/LSI dvd captures to MP4 files?

Yes. And I always inform the person that the request makes no sense. MP4 is a container, not a format/codec. Did they mean H.264? And they usually do.
So.... do you mean H264?
And the final application is ... what? Streaming? LAN watching? Archiving while reducing space? All have different needs and caveats.

If you have a workflow you can recommend that creates passable, smaller MP4 files from dvd recorder VHS captures for laptop/tablet/phone use, could you please post a link to wherever you may have discussed it (VH or DigitalFAQ)? Thanks!

Watching how?
If VLC, deinterlace not needed.
If streaming to a phone ... from where? WiFi? WAN? ... then deinterlace, and different bitrate needs.

If "yes" (all of the above), least common denominator, deinterlace and compressed. May look bad the better the device, but no way around that but multi-encode for each intended use. Which is suggested.

My own limited attempts with converting dvd/mpeg VHS captures to MP4 files proved dismal: combing artifacts galore among other issues.

QTGMC, and via Hybrid easiest.

If the device can play straight MPEG, I've found ripping the dvd VOBs to unaltered MPEG files far preferable (except for the size, of course).

Go further yet -- ISO. Unless from a boring recorder, or you split/edited the assets (remove commercials if TV source, etc). I do both. I have ISO on external HDD, and I have MPEG on the home server.

but some devices don't cope well with recorder MPEGs wrapped in MKV.

Nope. Most expect H264 in MKV.

MP4 conversion of commercial dvds, or recorder dvds made from broadcast sources, generally look fine within the context required for portable screens,

It's always easy to hide flaws on small and b;urry devices. Usually phone or 13" CRTs.

But any MP4 I've made from a dvd recorder VHS transfer (JVC/LSI or Pioneer/Renasis) looks garbage.

You need to give me a sample sometime. You try, I try, we see which is better.
I'll only use easy means, nothing complex, so you can replicate.

My own limited attempts with converting dvd/mpeg VHS captures to MP4 files proved dismal: combing artifacts galore among other issues.

Not sure why. MPEG isn't overly different from lossless here. I hobby capture MPEG all the time, and have often encoded and shared H264 deinterlaced versions, sometimes 59.95fps and scaled to 720p (sans black bars).