The end result is supposed to be multiple VOB files, just as on the DVD. As I already mentioned, you join the VOBs when making the D2V project file using DGIndex.
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. This part is already done. I already extracted the Vob files and loaded them up with MPEG2Source for editing. So now I have an Mp4 file after IVTC and some color corrections. I will use this copy for viewing, but I also want to save the original source in case I will want to do more modifications in the future. So I wonder who yous store, or rather archive those. You just leave it as multiple vob files?
Besides that, I'm all ready to start ripping all the DVDs. The only missing piece of information, is what is the "right" frame output. Should It be 2-2-2-2? That's the correct way of frames to show? if that's the case, I will prefer IVTC when I can reach that 2-2-2-2, and if not - I'm fine with SRestore (which give me steadt 2-2-2-2), as I wasn't able to detect the differences when actually playing the video. At least on this specific video. -
I'd leave them as DVD. However, if you want to join them with no reencoding, then something like VOB2MPEG will do the job.
...what is the "right" frame output. -
There is no 'right frameoutput'. Animations are drawn to be displayed at all kinds of framerates, even within the same episode. These include, among others, 8, 12, 16, and 24fps. There are even sometimes 29.97fps parts, most often in anime intros, which throws a real monkey wrench into attempts to IVTC them.
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You find a stretch at the same framerate (1-1-1-1-1, 2-2-2-2-2, etc.) and count along for awhile. It's not all that hard and anime is jerky anyway.
...as long as I don't see blended frames I'm good? -
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Then your definition of telecining is somewhat 'looser' than mine. Ordinarily, as you know, it's the process of adding clean fields to go from 23.976fps to 29.97fps. I loosen it somewhat to include adding clean fields to go from a lower framerate to a higher one (19.98->29.97fps, 25fps->29.97fps, 24fps->25fps and others). I've seen or created myself examples of each of those. But I don't consider adding blended fields to output a higher framerate as a telecine. As far as I know, blended fields are created by hardware standards conversion boxes. They are exponentially worse than any other method of raising framerates for DVD or television broadcast.
The Wikipedia definition does back you up, though:
Telecine is the process of transferring motion picture film into video and is performed in a color suite.
I consider field-blending so godawful horrible because of the damage it does to the source video, that I don't include it as a legitimate way to increase framerates. And, as you mention, it can't be properly IVTC'd. But pedantic point taken. -
Almost all field blended videos I've seen have come from NTSC/PAL conversions that were obviously from analog video tapes. The film was literally telecined (using your restrictive definition) with 3:2 or 2:2 pulldown into analog video before they were NTSC/PAL converted with blending.
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Another reason field-blending might be considered an 'illegitimate' form of telecine is because telecine adds duplicate fields We've all seen those diagrams of how 4 frames are turned into 10 fields. With field-blending it isn't duplicates that are added. I have yet to see one of those diagrams or any telecine discussion show or mention field-blending, even though it's extremely common.
Maybe 'almost all', but not all are from standards conversions. I've seen field-blending done to go from 23.976->29.97fps, even though a standard telecine would have been vastly preferable. Even your last point, while it might describe pulldown along the way to the final result, that final step of adding in the blending just ruins the whole process. After all, there are easy ways to do the PAL<->NTSC conversions that don't require field-blending. But I guess those standards conversion boxes made the process cheap and easy (or easier).Last edited by manono; 20th Feb 2021 at 15:27.
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You find a stretch at the same framerate (1-1-1-1-1, 2-2-2-2-2, etc.) and count along for awhile. It's not all that hard and anime is jerky anyway.
With QTGMC().Srestore() I get a constant 2-2 by the way. -
Well, good in the sense that the length won't change. But bad in the sense that it'll play even more jerky than it should. There might be ways to tweak the decimation to make it come out right. Or to fix it using override files. But that's all a huge hassle. No, I'd say after checking the results of TFM/TDecimate(Mode=1) you get 2-1-3 where it should be 2-2-2, to go the Bob/Srestore route. By default SRestore might give you 25fps when you want 23.976fps. Make sure you set the framerate. SRestore(Frate=23.976)
Edit: Or fieldmatch like usual and let SRestore do the decimation:
TFM().Srestore(Frate=23.976)Last edited by manono; 20th Feb 2021 at 17:24.
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Yea, It's probably doesn't really matter. As I mentioned - this is just couple of kids DVDs. Nothing to worth the extra care. But I'm interested though - What's the difference in QTGMC and what TFM does (fieldmathcing you said?). I know QTGMC does much more (noise processing, sharpening etc etc). But if you turn all those extra feature, QTGMC and TFM does the same thing?
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No, not the same. QTGMC creates frames out of fields. TFM creates frames from field partners - from fields that belong together to begin with.
TFM returns the original untouched frames, QTGMC doesn't. -
Thank you. When I'm home I'll compare TFM().SRestore() vs QTGMC.SRestore() out of curiosity to see if I can notice the differences.
EDIT: Tried TFM().Srestore(), Still suffering from 2-2-2-1-3-2-2. QTGMC().Srestore() is the only steady 2-2-2 solution for this specific video.
That was super educational thread for me, thanks you all attenders. Up until now, I only used QTGMC, now I know IVTC exists. So If I'm summing what we talked about previously for my sake and the sake perhaps of future readers:
- If the video has movement every frame (1-1-1-1) it's a true interlaced video, and using QTGMC() is enough.
- If there's pull-downs (where the most common are 3:2/2:3), the video need to be IVTCed:
Code:TFM(clip2=QTGMC(FPSDivisor=2)).TDecimate()
- If steady frame rate isn't achieved - another option to try it to us TDecimate(mode=1), which work better on cartoons.
- If even that doesn't work, it's mostly easier to just use SRestore, with TFM first, and if not - with QTGMC
Code:TFM(clip2=QTGMC(FPSDivisor=2)).Srestore(Frate=23.976) # or 25 for PAL # or QTGMC().Srestore(Frate=23.976)
Code:QTGMC(InputType=2)
Last edited by Okiba; 22nd Feb 2021 at 05:46.
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Sometimes you'll find a pulldown pattern that requires a longer period than the default 1 out of 5 that TDecimate() uses by default. For example, using a letter for each original film frame, A B B C D E F F G H can be decimated properly with TDecimate() because one of the Bs in the first group of 5 will be thrown out, then one of the Fs in the second group of 5 will be tossed. But in a pattern like A B C D E F F G H H there's no duplicate in the first group of 5 so a unique frame will be discarded. Then in the second group of 5 either an F or an H will be discard but the other duplicate will be retained. If you use a longer cycle, TDecimate(Cycle=10, CycleR=2) (remove 2 of every 10), one of the Fs and one of the Hs in the group of 10 will be discarded leaving all 8 of the original film frames. Both decimate a 29.97 fps video to 23.976 fps but the latter will play more smoothly in the second case.
Cartoons have lots of duplicate frames so you only expect to see all unique frames in panning shots. Most shots with only character motion will only change every other frame (because they were animated at 12 fps) or even less.
Also note that QTGMC(InputType=2) can sometimes damage a video. So use it only when the benefits outweighs the detriments.
You should stop worrying about all the possible theoretical issues and start working on some real videos. Then when you run across a problem you don't understand come back and upload a sample that shows the problem.Last edited by jagabo; 22nd Feb 2021 at 08:46.
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You should stop worrying about all the possible theoretical issues and start working on some real videos. Then when you run across a problem you don't understand come back and upload a sample that shows the problem.
Thanks again everyone! appreciate your help. -
Hi again everyone!
So I have been converting couple of DVDs, and was able to apply everything you guys said. However, I encountered this attached video - and I'm not sure what to do with it. On some classic, there's a classic 3-2 pulldown. To TFM().TDecimate() sounds like a good options. But on some section (like the fly flying around, there' much faster movement, and it's not panning. Is it still OK to with the default Tdeimate mode even if the frames pulldown change often? -
The only unusual thing I saw in that clip was the "clock" transition near the end. It was animated at 60 fps. Most of the character animation is at 12 fps, some of the fly animation is at 24 fps.
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So even with multiple FPS count on different sections - TFM(clip2=QTGMC(FPSDivisor=2)).TDecimate() should still be the proper way doing so? so for this example I should use it? here's a more specific video I can actually tell the difference between results (attached).
At around 8 second the platform to the left is heading down with the word "Stop". After SeparateFields(), I can easily count 2-3 pulldown. With TDecimate, before the drop, I see movement every 2 frame. During the drop, I see frame every single move. When the platform is at the bottom (from 212) I can count 3 frames until the next movement where it back to 2 frame per movement. I assumed - that's not right, because it's changing too often. So I used QTGMC().SRestore(frate=23.976) instead. With that, I can see the platform movement starts with movement per single frame, but then it goes to steady 2 frame per movement mid way. So again - assumed that better, because the movement is more consistent - but when playing them one by one - I can easily see the platform drop jitter on the SRestore video.
So I guess what I'm missing is how do I measure if the IVTCed worked - because I'm obviously doing it wrong
Thanks! -
I ended up just searching the fastest section of the video I can find (like the one I shared in in the post above), and test it post SRestore and TDecimate to see which is more jerky. Probably not the best way to determine which worked better, but I guess it's good enough until I can do more research about it. Thank you!
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Doing it that way is fine -- if that's what you want. But it can be a matter of compromise. The vast majority of test.m2v is animated at 24p. Is it worth encoding the whole video at 60p just because of that one transition?
Generally, I only use SRestore() when there are blended fields/frames. -
Is it worth encoding the whole video at 60p just because of that one transition?
Also - `test2.demuxed.m2v`, you can clearly tell something wrong with SRestore - as it's ending very choppy. -
After TFM and TDecimate just look at frames. In panning shots you usually see smooth motion at 24p. Character animation is usually at slower frame rates so you expect to see duplicates. If you see jerky motion during panning shots something may not be right. You'll have to do further analysis.
Only use SRestore when you have field/frame blending. -
Thank you. That's exactly what I was missing. An indication to know IVTC worked properly. There's a lot of panning shots, and I can confirm they are all "smooth". (one frame = one movement).
Only use SRestore when you have field/frame blending.
Intresting enough in the test2.demuxed.m2v, the panning at 04:775 seems to be OK with either TDecimate or SRestore. But where It goes wrong is the lowering of that platform at 08:008. SRestore looks jerky, and closer inspection - shows there's missing frames. There's still frame per movement, but it skips a frame. If using TDecimate - you can see there still 1 frame per movement, but extra frame Srestore doesn't show. And what's more interesting, is that the original video length is 44:711. The length with Srestore is also 44:711 - but the length after TDeimcate is 44.670.Last edited by Okiba; 1st Mar 2021 at 09:32.
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Hi again everyone!
Here's another video I have a question about. DGMPGDec report the frame type to be progressive. Now based on what was said earlier here, those tools not always correct. I found a panning shot (attached), and the pattern seems to be 2-2-2-4 (which based on some searching from the forum, normal Tdeimate() without extra parameters is fine to use). But what bothered me is two things:
- Black bar on top/bottom (didn't see this happening yet). I cropped it with Crop(2, 6, -2, -6). I'm not sure what the SAR for it would be, as I'm not sure if ITU cap has anything to do with upper padding.
- The frames are not sharp. Is that frame-blending?
After TDecimate() I'm getting good 1 movement per frame on this panning shot.
Thanks for sticking up with me :P -
Yes, that video is progressive with a duplicate frame every 5th frame. Just TDecimate() will remove the duplicate.
SAR, Sampling Aspect Ratio, doesn't change when you crop. If the SAR is 8:9 before cropping it's still 8:9 after cropping. -
DGIndex (I assume that's what you meant to write) is always correct when it says how a video is encoded. However, it says nothing as to what the actual frames are like. Sometimes (rarely, and always by mistake) interlaced frames are encoded as progressive and it's fairly common for progressive frames to be encoded as interlaced, particularly in PAL land.
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Sometimes (rarely, and always by mistake) interlaced frames are encoded as progressive and it's fairly common for progressive frames to be encoded as interlaced, particularly in PAL land.
Yes, that video is progressive with a duplicate frame every 5th frame.
SAR, Sampling Aspect Ratio, doesn't change when you crop. If the SAR is 8:9 before cropping it's still 8:9 after cropping.
By the way, the last video I worked with has delay according to the DGIndex ac3 file name (14ms). What I did is to use DelayAudio(0.014). Was that correct?
Thank you jagabo and manano! -
Verify one way or another, yes. For example, I've seen DVDs converted from a PAL source with 5 unique progressive frames followed by a duplicate frame. One duplicate in every 6 frames. That will also show as progressive in DGIndex.
But you don't always have to bob it or separate the fields to figure out what's going on. Just opening the film you asked about with no filters on would have shown you the all-progressive source with one duplicate frame in every 5 frames. Standard hard-telecine will show as 3 progressive and 2 interlaced frames in every 5-frame pattern.
By the way, the last video I worked with has delay according to the DGIndex ac3 file name (14ms). What I did is to use DelayAudio(0.014). Was that correct? -
But you don't always have to bob it or separate the fields to figure out what's going on. Just opening the film you asked about with no filters on would have shown you the all-progressive source with one duplicate frame in every 5 frames. Standard hard-telecine will show as 3 progressive and 2 interlaced frames in every 5-frame pattern.
Well, it can't hurt but I doubt it did anything at all. For one thing 14ms is way too little to notice it's out of synch. In addition AC3 audio can only be delayed in multiples of 32ms (I think). If you converted it to WAV audio, perhaps intending to work on the audio, then the delay would take effect. But yes, the 0.014 figure is correct.
Thank you!
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