VHS to DVD quality issue

[cinemakyle01]

When you convert a tape, does anyone notice a significant quality difference between the formats (VHS and DVD)? I have my own setup and I've done a compare/contrast between the footage on the 2 formats, and I've noticed a significant difference. I know since these are 2 different formats, that's to be expected, but the colors in this particular video I've converted look a certain way, and on the DVD, the colors are less strong. I can't decide if the DVD image looks washed out, or if the VHS is too saturated. Any advice anyone can give me? Does putting the footage on a DVD neutralize the image quality? I've used a VHS/DVD combo with the dubbing function.

[davexnet]

When you convert a tape, does anyone notice a significant quality difference between the formats (VHS and DVD)? I have my own setup and I've done a compare/contrast between the footage on the 2 formats, and I've noticed a significant difference. I know since these are 2 different formats, that's to be expected, but the colors in this particular video I've converted look a certain way, and on the DVD, the colors are less strong. I can't decide if the DVD image looks washed out, or if the VHS is too saturated. Any advice anyone can give me? Does putting the footage on a DVD neutralize the image quality? I've used a VHS/DVD combo with the dubbing function.

Did you do this conversion in the computer or a standalone unit?
The more info you provide, the more relevant the responses will be

[johnmeyer]

All the DVD transfers I have done from my VHS videotapes looks as good as the original and, in most cases, better. There is little color difference, and by using AVISynth plugins I can reduce the artifacts (noise, etc.) inherent in VHS. I usually encode at a fairly high MPEG-2 bitrate, so the gains from the AVISynth work far outweigh the slight loss from re-encoding to MPEG-2 for the DVD.

[cinemakyle01]

When you convert a tape, does anyone notice a significant quality difference between the formats (VHS and DVD)? I have my own setup and I've done a compare/contrast between the footage on the 2 formats, and I've noticed a significant difference. I know since these are 2 different formats, that's to be expected, but the colors in this particular video I've converted look a certain way, and on the DVD, the colors are less strong. I can't decide if the DVD image looks washed out, or if the VHS is too saturated. Any advice anyone can give me? Does putting the footage on a DVD neutralize the image quality? I've used a VHS/DVD combo with the dubbing function.

Did you do this conversion in the computer or a standalone unit?
The more info you provide, the more relevant the responses will be

A standalone unit. It's a VHS/DVD combo that can do everything in the player.

[davexnet]

When you convert a tape, does anyone notice a significant quality difference between the formats (VHS and DVD)? I have my own setup and I've done a compare/contrast between the footage on the 2 formats, and I've noticed a significant difference. I know since these are 2 different formats, that's to be expected, but the colors in this particular video I've converted look a certain way, and on the DVD, the colors are less strong. I can't decide if the DVD image looks washed out, or if the VHS is too saturated. Any advice anyone can give me? Does putting the footage on a DVD neutralize the image quality? I've used a VHS/DVD combo with the dubbing function.

Did you do this conversion in the computer or a standalone unit?
The more info you provide, the more relevant the responses will be

A standalone unit. It's a VHS/DVD combo that can do everything in the player.

Unless there are any settings on the unit germane to the task at hand,
what you see is what you get.
Have you checked the manual?

[cinemakyle01]

When you convert a tape, does anyone notice a significant quality difference between the formats (VHS and DVD)? I have my own setup and I've done a compare/contrast between the footage on the 2 formats, and I've noticed a significant difference. I know since these are 2 different formats, that's to be expected, but the colors in this particular video I've converted look a certain way, and on the DVD, the colors are less strong. I can't decide if the DVD image looks washed out, or if the VHS is too saturated. Any advice anyone can give me? Does putting the footage on a DVD neutralize the image quality? I've used a VHS/DVD combo with the dubbing function.

Did you do this conversion in the computer or a standalone unit?
The more info you provide, the more relevant the responses will be

A standalone unit. It's a VHS/DVD combo that can do everything in the player.

Unless there are any settings on the unit germane to the task at hand,
what you see is what you get.
Have you checked the manual?

I'm new to this website. Is it possible to post pictures on here? It'll be easier than explaining the problem.

[davexnet]

yes of course use this button

[jagabo]

You can post picture and video clips to this site.

But as has been stated, with a combo unit what you get is what you get. There's usually little to configure. For best results stick with the highest quality mode -- 1 hour per 4.7 GB DVD.

[cinemakyle01]

Having some trouble on my end. What do you click after it says Current Attachments with your image on the pop-up screen?

[cinemakyle01]

Nevermind, there it is haha. The image above is the VHS image.

[cinemakyle01]

Here is the DVD/Digital file image

[johnmeyer]

Well, that is a massive difference. I have never seen such a supersaturated VHS capture. What did you use to capture these two images?

[jagabo]

If those are accurate depictions of what you see on the TV it's a huge difference. The VHS may be a little oversaturated but DVD is definitely undersaturated.

[cinemakyle01]

I used a VHS/DVD combo player that has a dubbing feature. The supersaturated image is the VHS and the undersaturated image is the DVD. Whats odd is that I also have a Elgato video capture device and it produces the same result.

[davexnet]

I used a VHS/DVD combo player that has a dubbing feature. The supersaturated image is the VHS and the undersaturated image is the DVD. Whats odd is that I also have a Elgato video capture device and it produces the same result.

Does this happen only on this one tape?

[cinemakyle01]

No, I converted another one earlier today and it did the same thing

[johnmeyer]

I used a VHS/DVD combo player that has a dubbing feature. The supersaturated image is the VHS and the undersaturated image is the DVD. Whats odd is that I also have a Elgato video capture device and it produces the same result.

You didn't answer the question: HOW did you capture these images? I understand clearly that you have a VHS/DVD combo unit. Did you create the DVD and then capture the result as the DVD played from this unit? Did you capture the VHS tape as it was playing from this same VHS/DVD combo unit? What is the connection between the unit and the computer, and what capture software did you use on your computer to capture these still images?

What is the make/model of your VHS/DVD combo unit?

[jagabo]

The first on is obviously a photograph of the TV screen -- you can see the Sanyo logo. I'm guessing the other is too.

[cinemakyle01]

I put in a blank disc, then started the VHS, which is the source of the footage, and simultaneously hit record on the DVD as the VHS was playing. When the VHS played all the footage, I stopped the DVD recording, then finalized it. As for the capture software, I sometimes use it and not always. Regardless if it's just the VHS/DVD player or VHS to computer, It produces the same result. The software is Elgato Video Capture.

Model: Sanyo FWZV475F.

[davexnet]

Have you tried capturing into the computer with a second vcr? Are these copy protected (commercial) tapes?
When capturing into the computer what cable are you using? Composite or S-video ?

[orsetto]

You probably won't be able to solve this without borrowing a different VCR and dvd player, and possibly checking the Sanyo combo with a different TV.

Digitizing VHS with a combo recorder does typically result in somewhat noticeable differences from the original tape, but not this dramatic color desaturation (differences btwn VHS vs a dvd recorder copy of it lie more in the appearance of video noise, blur/sharpness, etc). Getting exactly the same desaturated result from your Elgato device connected to a PC would be extremely odd coincidence if you're playing the files from your PC to the TV. However, if you are making a DVD of the Elgato files in your PC, then playing that DVD with the Sanyo, you almost certainly have a defect in the video output of the Sanyo dvd section.

To narrow down the source of the problem, you'd need to try playing the Sanyo-burned and Elgato/PC-burned dvds in a different dvd player. If the color looks normal in another player, the Sanyo disc playback circuit is faulty. If the dvds show the same desaturation in another player, you've got a defect in either the dubbing system circuit of the Sanyo, or the Sanyo VCR section does something funny to the video signal that triggers desaturation in digital encoders but doesn't manifest when it plays directly to a TV. Ruling out the Sanyo VCR section requires trying the same tapes in a different external VCR, connected to the Sanyo for DVD dubbing and then the Elgato for PC capture.

There's a slight chance your Sanyo TV just doesn't like something in the output signal of your Sanyo combo unit in dvd mode: trying the combo with a different TV would determine that. Also try swapping connection methods between the combo and TV: check if DVD playback quality changes when shifting from HDMI to composite, S-video or component cables instead. If so, the connection that looks desaturated is defective in the combo (or that connection cable itself is funky).

[lordsmurf]

from the original tape,

No. Correction. "from the VCR".

You only get true quality from the tape by processing it with the best VCRs.
The best VCRs don't invent quality, those extract it.
Crappy VCRs output a crappy signal.
And a crappy combo DVD recorder makes a crappier DVD from the crappy VHS playback.

That's why better gear is suggested.

[cinemakyle01]

The first on is obviously a photograph of the TV screen -- you can see the Sanyo logo. I'm guessing the other is too.

The other photo is a screenshot from my laptop. The photos I posted are from a VHS to computer conversion. It's just that converting to a DVD gives me the same results.

[cinemakyle01]

Have you tried capturing into the computer with a second vcr? Are these copy protected (commercial) tapes?
When capturing into the computer what cable are you using? Composite or S-video ?

I've tried a second VCR before, and it gave me the same results, but I can try it again to make sure because it was several months ago when I tried that. These are home videos. When I connect to a computer, I use Composite cables on a Elgato video capture device, and you plug it in to a computer with a usb, so it's composite to USB.

[cinemakyle01]

You probably won't be able to solve this without borrowing a different VCR and dvd player, and possibly checking the Sanyo combo with a different TV.

Digitizing VHS with a combo recorder does typically result in somewhat noticeable differences from the original tape, but not this dramatic color desaturation (differences btwn VHS vs a dvd recorder copy of it lie more in the appearance of video noise, blur/sharpness, etc). Getting exactly the same desaturated result from your Elgato device connected to a PC would be extremely odd coincidence if you're playing the files from your PC to the TV. However, if you are making a DVD of the Elgato files in your PC, then playing that DVD with the Sanyo, you almost certainly have a defect in the video output of the Sanyo dvd section.

To narrow down the source of the problem, you'd need to try playing the Sanyo-burned and Elgato/PC-burned dvds in a different dvd player. If the color looks normal in another player, the Sanyo disc playback circuit is faulty. If the dvds show the same desaturation in another player, you've got a defect in either the dubbing system circuit of the Sanyo, or the Sanyo VCR section does something funny to the video signal that triggers desaturation in digital encoders but doesn't manifest when it plays directly to a TV. Ruling out the Sanyo VCR section requires trying the same tapes in a different external VCR, connected to the Sanyo for DVD dubbing and then the Elgato for PC capture.

There's a slight chance your Sanyo TV just doesn't like something in the output signal of your Sanyo combo unit in dvd mode: trying the combo with a different TV would determine that. Also try swapping connection methods between the combo and TV: check if DVD playback quality changes when shifting from HDMI to composite, S-video or component cables instead. If so, the connection that looks desaturated is defective in the combo (or that connection cable itself is funky).

Ok, I'll try some of these methods. I'll try a variety of combinations of things and see what happens.

[cinemakyle01]

from the original tape,

No. Correction. "from the VCR".

You only get true quality from the tape by processing it with the best VCRs.
The best VCRs don't invent quality, those extract it.
Crappy VCRs output a crappy signal.
And a crappy combo DVD recorder makes a crappier DVD from the crappy VHS playback.

That's why better gear is suggested.

This VHS/DVD combo is not very old. I've had this for maybe 4 or 5 years, it has been well kept, and I've never had any real problems with it. I got it new in a retail store.

[orsetto]

from the original tape,

No. Correction. "from the VCR".

You only get true quality from the tape by processing it with the best VCRs.
The best VCRs don't invent quality, those extract it.
Crappy VCRs output a crappy signal.
And a crappy combo DVD recorder makes a crappier DVD from the crappy VHS playback.

That's why better gear is suggested.

These can be distinctions without a difference: I have all that "premium" gear, and even under the best circumstances it is almost impossible to obtain absolutely 100% faithful digitization of exactly how the tape itself appears during direct analog playback thru a top quality VCR (or a low quality VCR, for that matter). Very skilled technicians such as yourself can achieve the appearance of "better" quality than the actual analog tape playback, and its certainly easy to get strange results (subjectively interpreted as better or worse) that look slightly to very different from analog direct playback. Whether "best practices" premium gear or crappy off-the-shelf combo is used, the intrinsic appearance of the digital copy diverges to some degree from that of analog tape playback. Some eyes are more sensitive to this than others: personally, I've rarely seen a digitized VHS that doesn't reek of having been digitized, no matter how technically "good" it is. The one exception being samples I've seen from a "lurker" member here who employs a staggeringly arcane array of digital-era pro broadcast hardware, difficult to acquire and far beyond the budget or learning curve of the average consumer or enthusiast. Of course, that sort of setup is niche within niche within niche: irrelevant to most discussions here.

Returning to this thread topic, which is specific to an issue encountered with a particular example of not-well-regarded combo recorder, it is up to cinemakyle01 to decide whether he's more interested in figuring out what is going wrong in that combo, or he'd like to learn more about the traditional "best practices" workflow from LordSmurf, johnmeyer, etc. Aside from the simple troubleshooting steps I outlined previously, there are no adjustments available in the combo settings that can significantly alter the dvd quality it offers. The Sanyo is a simplified device designed to deliver automated average/OK consumer-grade results. Depending on the tapes and the user, those results may or may not seem acceptable.

Overall results quality of "best practices workflow" vs "combo" is entirely separate from the thread topic at hand. Such dramatic desaturation in the DVD copy is a definite defect caused by some aspect of this combo unit in concert with this TV. You can get mediocre-looking results copying VHS to DVD in a combo, but the mediocrity is usually evenly balanced across several aspects (noise, distortion, jitter, tint, etc). You don't normally see a dramatic defect in just one area when using a dvd recorder, such as this desaturation discrepancy. The closest I've come to such a phenomenon in my own transfer work is when using a failing Panasonic AG-1980 VCR that outputs noticeably less saturated colors than a properly-functioning 1980 (or any other VCR). However, that VCR shows the desaturation in real time whether connected to an encoder device or directly to a display: there is no "gotcha" shift fin saturation between tape playback and digital encode played afterward.

There is an issue TBD here in a subsection of the combo unit or its connection to the display TV.

[lordsmurf]

This VHS/DVD combo is not very old. I've had this for maybe 4 or 5 years, it has been well kept, and I've never had any real problems with it. I got it new in a retail store.

Age is NOT quality. Most new items are garbage.

Your combo unit is likely a low-end Funai rebadge, which is low quality with known problems.

These can be distinctions without a difference: I have all that "premium" gear, and even under the best circumstances it is almost impossible to obtain absolutely 100% faithful digitization of exactly how the tape itself appears during direct analog playback thru a top quality VCR (or a low quality VCR, for that matter).

But it's a logarithmic scale.
- The difference between a good deck, and a low-end deck, is a giant chasm of a curve. 50-90%+
- The difference between the good decks can be <0.1% -- which is a great place to be. So get there.

The one exception being samples I've seen from a "lurker" member here who employs a staggeringly arcane array of digital-era pro broadcast hardware, difficult to acquire and far beyond the budget or learning curve of the average consumer or enthusiast. Of course, that sort of setup is niche within niche within niche: irrelevant to most discussions here.

I don't at all agree with this.

This is a hobby, all hobbies cost money. Video is actually cheap compared to most. Best yet, you can buy, use, resell, at the end of your hobby DIY project. There are budget options, there are premium options.

There are also cheapskates, and they get what they pay for (nothing or garbage). I'm not lowering myself to the lowest denominator. Quality (and nuisance-free) conversion has a recipe. Follow it. Being cheap and stubborn won't get you anywhere. You'll end up throwing the tapes back in the closet from disgust.

[davexnet]

If the DVD picture was from the laptop, perhaps you should play it on the TV same as the tape, same unit, same cables, same TV settings

[jagabo]

The first on is obviously a photograph of the TV screen -- you can see the Sanyo logo. I'm guessing the other is too.

The other photo is a screenshot from my laptop. The photos I posted are from a VHS to computer conversion.

So the second picture is from a computer capture of the analog video from the VHS deck, as displayed on the computer? Photographed with a camera? Or screen captured with software?

It's just that converting to a DVD gives me the same results.

As viewed on the TV from the DVD recorder playing the DVD it recorded? Or as viewed on the computer? This is critical because TVs are often set to increase contrast and saturation, computer monitors are not.

The second image can be made to look more like the first just by increasing the saturation.


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