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  1. Hello all,

    Looking to grab Closed Caps from recorded material on a dish sat receiver. The dish pvr has the CC data recorded and stored on the encrypted disk file on its internal hard drive. The CC's can be toggled to display (i.e. burned in) or not via the Dish devices menu settings.

    I have at my disposal a Hauppauge HD PVR2 that will cap all kinds of HD video but as far a analog will only capture component RGB video which is all done via USB.

    I also have a Canopus ADVC300 analog capture device that captures via a FireWire (OHCI 1394) card already installed and working in the machine. This device I was figuring would have the best chance at capturing the CC's

    I have made a few attempts at trying to capture some test video (video only no audio) using Vegas as the record/capture software. I saved a snippet or two as MPEG2 to .MPG files and tried running CCextractor on those files to no avail.

    I am thinking with the hardware I have here I should be able to capture the CC data but so far the methodology escapes me on how to get the raw video with the cc data encapsulated onto the system drive so that CCextractor can take over and give something to work with. Is there a capture-ware out there that will simply take the video coming in over a FireWire port and record it will CC data intact? I'm not caring how the video (or audio) looks so long as I have the CC data to build the eventual .SRT files with.

    Am I totally out in the weeds here thinking I can do this or ???

    Any/All input appreciated.
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  2. I have seen that thread before. I am not looking to buy more hardware. I believe the advc300 should do the job but winTV will not recognize a Firewire device let alone a Canopus one.

    Has anyone had success using a Canopus ADVC300 to cap CC's via the analog composite video input? If yes what software capture util was used?
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    I have seen that thread before. I am not looking to buy more hardware. I believe the advc300 should do the job but winTV will not recognize a Firewire device let alone a Canopus one.

    Has anyone had success using a Canopus ADVC300 to cap CC's via the analog composite video input? If yes what software capture util was used?
    see this thread - https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/363840-Extract-closed-captions-from-PVR
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    I have seen that thread before. I am not looking to buy more hardware. I believe the advc300 should do the job but winTV will not recognize a Firewire device let alone a Canopus one.

    Has anyone had success using a Canopus ADVC300 to cap CC's via the analog composite video input? If yes what software capture util was used?
    You are mistaken in your belief that the Canopus ADVC300 can work. The ADVC300 can only capture video as DV, and DV does not support closed captions. The ADVC300 could record open captions, assuming that the Dish PVR itself can decode closed captions and display them as part of the picture. Open captions have to be turned into text subtitles via optical character recognition. However, OCR is rarely perfect and usually requires a great deal of manual correction.
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  5. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    The only way for you to get the caption as an optional data is to literally extract the files from the PVR's hard drive to your computer, and to be able to do that you have to defeat DN encryption which is impossible right now, Few years ago was possible. Sorry to rain in your parade, but you can always get the materials on DVD, Blu-ray, UHD which should have the caption available or just capture the video with a hard coded caption.
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    The only way for you to get the caption as an optional data is to literally extract the files from the PVR's hard drive to your computer, and to be able to do that you have to defeat DN encryption which is impossible right now, Few years ago was possible. Sorry to rain in your parade, but you can always get the materials on DVD, Blu-ray, UHD which should have the caption available or just capture the video with a hard coded caption.
    ...but if closed captions are present in the captured video file, it is usually possible to extract them as SRT subtitles with CCExtractorGUI. In one instance where CCExtractorGUI didn't work, eac3to (suggested by poisondeathray) worked even though it is mainly a tool for audio.

    With the right capture device, it is possible to get a capture file that includes closed captions. I have been able to capture video which includes closed captions from the composite video connection on a set-top box with three different SD analog capture devices that also include a NTSC TV tuner, as well as with a couple of different DVD recorders (a Magnavox and a Panasonic). The problem is that the OP doesn't have a suitable capture device and is unwilling to invest in another capture device.

    [Edit] I would recommend the following devices for computers running Windows 7, Windows 8.x or Windows 10:
    For capture on a laptop computer with WinTV software: Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-955Q model 1191
    For capture on a desktop computer with WinTV software: Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1265
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 16th Nov 2020 at 10:28.
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  7. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Yes it could be done that way, Capture composite, extract the caption from line 21 as a caption file and stick it back to another capture file done with HDMI so that way he can get the best of both worlds if he is willing to go that route, TsMuxerGUI is a good application for that purpose, the only question left is, will he get a perfect timing?
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Yes it could be done that way, Capture composite, extract the caption from line 21 as a caption file and stick it back to another capture file done with HDMI so that way he can get the best of both worlds if he is willing to go that route, TsMuxerGUI is a good application for that purpose, the only question left is, will he get a perfect timing?
    The end product of the process I outlined is SRT subs, not actual closed captions. Assuming the OP doesn't snip out the commercials from the file that his Hauppauge HD PVR2 captured via composite or HDMI, the timing for the subs will be off by a fixed amount which can easily be corrected using SubtitleEdit. If the OP does snip out the commercials, then adjusting the timing for the subs in SubtitleEdit will be more work

    I don't think TsMuxerGUI would help. Turning SRT subs back into actual closed captions in a TS file would require the purchase of some expensive software.

    However, depending on what his media player likes, the OP could just stick the corrected SRT subs in the same folder as the TS file that his Hauppauge HD PVR2 captured via composite or HDMI or else create an MKV file with the corrected SRT subs muxed in with the audio and video from the capture file from his HD PVR2.
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  9. Checked out the two suggestions made above for possible CC/sub capture device - pretty reasonably priced and since I do quite a bit of ripping from SAT, for those prices, I could see fit to make the investment in yet another device...

    HOWEVER (there's always a however...) it seems BOTH of those devices are wanting RF coax inputs and the DISH PVR does NOT have an RF output. I know you're not suggesting connecting a coax straight from the SAT LNC's right into one of those devices because that would be ludicrous and would never work. So RF coax composite video out to whatever device is not an option here at all.

    As far as the CC's go with the SAT PVR they can be toggled via the device setup menu to be either on/off. When ON, CC's will display on ANY output (including HDMI) of the device as burned in CC's (or I guess you all call them "open captions").

    The available output on the SAT PVR are as follows;

    Composite Analog video (and audio)-- via RCA jacks (not rf)
    Analog Component video RGB (and audio) -- also via RCA jacks (also not rf)
    HDMI - via original standard size HDMI connector
    Optical audio output

    This whole excursion would require two passes of the source material to complete the entire capture - one pass to grab the HD video/audio content via my digital HD a/v capture devices and then another pass of the source material to capture the CC data via some possible device to be named later.

    So, I guess my question would be at this point, is there a capture device (want to stay clear of pc bus cards) that can grab the CC stuff intact from that selection of device outputs?? If this process ALL hinges on there being a RF composite video output on the source device I guess none of this will even be possible?
    Last edited by thghgv; 16th Nov 2020 at 15:01.
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  10. OK - Hold the phone here... new information has come to light

    Was researching ALL the available connections on this DISHnet PVR receiver and found that it has what the OEM of the device calls a "Home Distribution OUTPUT" sitting over on the INPUT section side of the back panel (which is why I didn't give it a thought before - an output stuffed over on the input side).

    This output is a down-converted output connection apparently included to maintain compatibility with older composite video TUBE type TV sets/systems. This sounds possibly like the RF composite video connection that will be needed in order to facilitate CC capture.

    Can anyone verify this as being correct?
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    The Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-955Q model 1191 comes with a breakout cable for analog SD audio and video input. (The WinTV-HVR-955Q is an updated version of the WinTV-HVR-950Q shown in the picture below.)
    Image
    [Attachment 55879 - Click to enlarge]


    I was going to suggest this USB tuner/capture device as well but it is discontinued and I did not find the US version on eBay: https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr1955.html
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 16th Nov 2020 at 16:21.
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  12. Yes, that was the one I was looking at as well -- Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-955Q model 1191 - pretty cheap actually... I was thinking these things were going to be in the 2-400$ range price wise, but 70-80$ (even less if open box) is more than doable.

    The one thing I am not able to find on this device, as well as others of it's ilk, are specifics on channel tuning's. I am looking at the DISHnet specs on this "home distribution RF OUTPUT" and it seems to carry the content of the entire PVR on a large quantity of what it terms "AIR MODE" or "CABLE MODE" channels.

    AIR MODE channels == 21 - 69
    CABLE MODE channels == 73 - 125

    I cannot seem to find anywhere (hauppauge is notorious for this) real specs on the workings of these tuners as to what they channels they cover and whether the channel range that the DISH receiver RF outputs on and what the WIN-TV device can tune to will overlap to any degree.

    Also I currently have WINTV 8.5 installed for use with the HD PVR2 - From what I am seeing it appears I will be able to use that for the HVR-955Q as well? Does that sound reasonable?
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Yes, that was the one I was looking at as well -- Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-955Q model 1191 - pretty cheap actually... I was thinking these things were going to be in the 2-400$ range price wise, but 70-80$ (even less if open box) is more than doable.

    The one thing I am not able to find on this device, as well as others of it's ilk, are specifics on channel tuning's. I am looking at the DISHnet specs on this "home distribution RF OUTPUT" and it seems to carry the content of the entire PVR on a large quantity of what it terms "AIR MODE" or "CABLE MODE" channels.

    AIR MODE channels == 21 - 69
    CABLE MODE channels == 73 - 125

    I cannot seem to find anywhere (hauppauge is notorious for this) real specs on the workings of these tuners as to what they channels they cover and whether the channel range that the DISH receiver RF outputs on and what the WIN-TV device can tune to will overlap to any degree.

    Also I currently have WINTV 8.5 installed for use with the HD PVR2 - From what I am seeing it appears I will be able to use that for the HVR-955Q as well? Does that sound reasonable?
    I've never had Dish Network satellite service or any satellite service for that matter, so I don't how the PVR distribution port is supposed to work.

    I'm certain that the Hauppauge NTSC tuners can tune all the channels/frequencies used for over-the-air TV in the US before the transition to digital and probably those used for US analog cable TV as well, just like cable-ready CRT TVs did before digital cable existed. ...but I don't think that matters because there is the option to capture using the composite video connection provided by the break-out cable that comes with the HVR-955Q.

    WINTV 8.5 should work for the HVR-955Q.
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  14. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    ...but I don't think that matters because there is the option to capture using the composite video connection provided by the break-out cable that comes with the HVR-955Q.
    If I'm understanding this correctly, with the 955Q, I could simply plug the analog composite video out (non-RF, rca connector) from the SAT, to the video in RCA jack on the 955Q breakout and that would provide a recorded WINTV8.5 file containing the needed MPEG user data? So no need for RF machinations?
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  15. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Yes, you don't need RF, just a composite video output a.k.a CVBS signal and the RCA out plug which is yellow.


    I don't think TsMuxerGUI would help. Turning SRT subs back into actual closed captions in a TS file would require the purchase of some expensive software.
    I was referring to SRT, I used TSmuxerGUI for stripping other languages SRT's to reduce file size and it worked fine but that was 7 years ago though.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    The Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-955Q model 1191 comes with a breakout cable for analog SD audio and video input. (The WinTV-HVR-955Q is an updated version of the WinTV-HVR-950Q shown in the picture below.)
    Image
    [Attachment 55879 - Click to enlarge]


    I was going to suggest this USB tuner/capture device as well but it is discontinued and I did not find the US version on eBay: https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr1955.html
    this what you're looking for ?? - https://www.ebay.com/p/2264274579
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    ...but I don't think that matters because there is the option to capture using the composite video connection provided by the break-out cable that comes with the HVR-955Q.
    If I'm understanding this correctly, with the 955Q, I could simply plug the analog composite video out (non-RF, rca connector) from the SAT, to the video in RCA jack on the 955Q breakout and that would provide a recorded WINTV8.5 file containing the needed MPEG user data? So no need for RF machinations?
    Yes. Just plug the breakout cable into the 955Q and connect the video composite out and stereo audio out from the PVR to the matching connection on the breakout cable and set up WinTV 8.5 to record. The WinTV software will encode the video and audio streams received via USB. Hauppauge devices capture closed captions received via USB in another separate stream instead of in the GOP user data like some other devices do. CCExtractorGUI is designed to extract the closed captions as SRT subtitles from that stream as well as from GOP user data.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 16th Nov 2020 at 20:30.
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    Originally Posted by october262 View Post
    this what you're looking for ?? - https://www.ebay.com/p/2264274579
    No. The item I was looking for on eBay was the WinTV HVR-1955, which is discontinued.
    Image
    [Attachment 55882 - Click to enlarge]


    An updated version of the WinTV HVR-950Q, the WinTV HVR-955Q, is still in production.
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Yes, you don't need RF, just a composite video output a.k.a CVBS signal and the RCA out plug which is yellow.


    I don't think TsMuxerGUI would help. Turning SRT subs back into actual closed captions in a TS file would require the purchase of some expensive software.
    I was referring to SRT, I used TSmuxerGUI for stripping other languages SRT's to reduce file size and it worked fine but that was 7 years ago though.
    TSmuxerGUI still won't help. There won't be SRTs for multiple languages. CCExtractor GUI outputs one language at a time.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by october262 View Post
    this what you're looking for ?? - https://www.ebay.com/p/2264274579
    No. The item I was looking for on eBay was the WinTV HVR-1955, which is discontinued.
    Image
    [Attachment 55882 - Click to enlarge]


    An updated version of the WinTV HVR-950Q, the WinTV HVR-955Q, is still in production.
    did find a used one - https://www.ebay.com/itm/WinTV-HVR-1955-Multiformat-Video-Capture-with-TV-Tuner-KIT-/392971696007
    and 2 more - https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=WinTV+HVR-1955&_sacat=0
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  21. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Yes. Just plug the breakout cable into the 955Q and connect the video composite out and stereo audio out from the PVR to the matching connection on the breakout cable and set up WinTV 8.5 to record. The WinTV software will encode the video and audio streams received via USB. Hauppauge devices capture closed captions received via USB in another separate stream instead of in the GOP user data like some other devices do. CCExtractorGUI is designed to extract the closed captions as SRT subtitles from that stream as well as from GOP user data.
    WOW. Well ok then!

    Was expecting some kind of way more exotic, head scratching process that would cost an arm and a leg, but certainly not looking a gift horse... Already picked up a 955Q, it's on its way and so should prove very useful for upcoming rip sessions. Have you had good results for accuracy and timing with the SRT's generated by CCE from sources you have captured? Just trying to get an idea of what to expect...
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Yes. Just plug the breakout cable into the 955Q and connect the video composite out and stereo audio out from the PVR to the matching connection on the breakout cable and set up WinTV 8.5 to record. The WinTV software will encode the video and audio streams received via USB. Hauppauge devices capture closed captions received via USB in another separate stream instead of in the GOP user data like some other devices do. CCExtractorGUI is designed to extract the closed captions as SRT subtitles from that stream as well as from GOP user data.
    WOW. Well ok then!

    Was expecting some kind of way more exotic, head scratching process that would cost an arm and a leg, but certainly not looking a gift horse... Already picked up a 955Q, it's on its way and so should prove very useful for upcoming rip sessions. Have you had good results for accuracy and timing with the SRT's generated by CCE from sources you have captured? Just trying to get an idea of what to expect...
    SRTs from CCExtractor almost always have accurate timing with respect to their own capture file. The main exceptions are broadcasts where the CCs lag the audio significantly, even when watching live TV.

    However, you are making 2 separate captures, one with the HDPVR 2 and one with the HVR-950Q which may start at slightly different times.
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  23. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    The main exceptions are broadcasts where the CCs lag the audio significantly, even when watching live TV.
    However, you are making 2 separate captures, one with the HDPVR 2 and one with the HVR-950Q which may start at slightly different times.
    Been using SubtitleEdit for most sub work in the past is there anything you know of that is better for aligning content segment subs after editing ?
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    @u_q,

    Yeah, and the main reason for CCs being delayed on broadcast TV is that they are CC'ing on the fly, and whether they use people or machines, there is gonna be some delay between the speech, the recognition of it, and the typing/encoding/insertion/transmission & presentation of that speech as CCs.

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    The main exceptions are broadcasts where the CCs lag the audio significantly, even when watching live TV.
    However, you are making 2 separate captures, one with the HDPVR 2 and one with the HVR-950Q which may start at slightly different times.
    Been using SubtitleEdit for most sub work in the past is there anything you know of that is better for aligning content segment subs after editing ?
    I'm afraid not. I only need to work with SRT subs once in a while, so Subtitle Edit is good enough for me.

    Most of the time I can keep closed captions as closed captions. I usually work with video files from a recording on DVD or TS files created by capturing a broadcast ATSC transport stream as is. In those instances, the closed captions are stored in the video's GOP user data, rather than as a separate stream the way Hauppauge stores closed captions when capturing from an SD analog source.
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  26. The 955Q will be here next week.

    I'll report back in then as to how this all works out as I have a ton of subs I need to apply to already edited material that is scheduled to re-record in order to do a grab pass and extract them.
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  27. Ok. I have the 955Q connected to the composite vid outs on the dish sat receiver. I get 4:3 composite video thru to the 955Q via wintv 8.5 (had to install a driver for the 955Q to even have wintv8.5 recognize there was a device on the system). The video files made by wintv are transport streams (.TS) files that have NO DISCERNIBLE subs or extra streams embedded in them. MediaInfo reports video/audio streams present but NO sub stream (or any other streams for that matter). When I have tried feeding test recordings (small ones - a few minutes of a larger dish capture) to CCE it creates 0 byte .SRT files from the recorded material...

    I have verified there ARE indeed CC's on the material being recorded as I can set the SAT-RECeiver to display burned in CC's and the CC service on the SAT-REC is set to "1". I have attempted to turn OFF the SAT-REC display of CC's and make the wintv/955Q combo display burned in subs to no avail. I figured if I could get the wintv stuff (955Q and wintv 8.5 combo) to display subs by enabling CC on wintv and setting CC service on 955Q to 1 as well I could get to see burned in subs from the hauppauge side and thus record the CC data to a separate stream for decoding. So far I have been UNSUCCESSFUL to get ANY of this to work at all...


    THERE MUST BE SOMETHING IM MISSING HERE. Any idea what it is?
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  28. Satellite transmissions don't use line 21 closed captions. They are included as a digital stream. Unless the sat receiver has an option to convert the digital CC to analog line 21 CC you won't get them from the 955Q.
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    I can't recall precisely what I used to do. Tomorrow I'll try setting up WinTV and my Hauppauge TV card to record from composite out of an old ATSC converter box so I can write down the procedure for you. I'm arthritic and can't get down on the floor to work anymore so it may take me a while to get everything connected and working. I'll be back when I get everything figured out.
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