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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Unless the sat receiver has an option to convert the digital CC to analog line 21 CC you won't get them from the 955Q.
    It won't be hard to find out if it does. If the TV itself can display CCs when watching via composite out from the satellite receiver, then line 21 is present in the signal.
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  2. Do modern TVs still support line 21 CC?

    A video showing line 21: https://youtu.be/6SL6zs2bDks?t=370
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Do modern TVs still support line 21 CC?
    If they have a composite video connection I think they should. My 2011 LG TV and my mother's 2015 Samsung TV can display closed captions from composite when playing DVDs with closed captions.
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    I connected my old DTV converter box to a 2012 Samsung 1080p TV's composite video and stereo audio connections and turned on the TV's closed caption decoder to make sure they were present. The TV displayed closed captions so their presence in the composite signal from the DTV converter box is confirmed.

    Next, I connected the DTV converter box to my Hauppauge TV card's composite connection. I could see a picture using WinTV 8 but could not get closed captions to display. I am not sure why. It could be that WinTV's closed caption settings are only for DTV or it could be something else. I will probably need to wait until late tonight to get back to my investigation of WinTV and recording closed captions. I look after my mother, who will turn 101 next month, and I can't spend much time away from her.
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  5. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Satellite transmissions don't use line 21 closed captions. They are included as a digital stream. Unless the sat receiver has an option to convert the digital CC to analog line 21 CC you won't get them from the 955Q.
    This is is a Dishnet SAT PVR. The material is recorded on the internal drive. The CC data is present in the recorded material From what was said previously in this thread one should be able to connect a capture device (the 955Q named specifically) to the composite audio/video out (rca jacks) of the Dish device to the capture device composite audio/video in on the breakout cable. I get the program a/v streams to composite inputs thru WinTV 8.5 but I am unable to get the WinTV/955Q combo to display/decode the CC data by themsevles. Since I am not getting any other streams recorded on this input I figured that IF WinTV is going to record CC data that I should be able to get the winTV/955Q combo to display the CC's on its own. So far no joy in getting the CC data decoded using the hauppauge stuff on its own.. I'm thinking that the hauppage stuff should be able to do this...

    I can turn the CC display ON with the Dishnet device setup but that just burns the CC's into the video stream which is not why I got the 955Q.
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  6. This is old but it says CC only works with Hauppauge's PCI capture devices:

    https://www.hauppauge.com/site/support/old-support/support_faq_wintv2000.html#closedcaption

    But Hauppauge has no idea what they're doing anymore so I would make no assumptions either way.
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    This is is a Dishnet SAT PVR. The material is recorded on the internal drive. The CC data is present in the recorded material From what was said previously in this thread one should be able to connect a capture device (the 955Q named specifically) to the composite audio/video out (rca jacks) of the Dish device to the capture device composite audio/video in on the breakout cable. I get the program a/v streams to composite inputs thru WinTV 8.5 but I am unable to get the WinTV/955Q combo to display/decode the CC data by themsevles. Since I am not getting any other streams recorded on this input I figured that IF WinTV is going to record CC data that I should be able to get the winTV/955Q combo to display the CC's on its own. So far no joy in getting the CC data decoded using the hauppauge stuff on its own.. I'm thinking that the hauppage stuff should be able to do this...

    I can turn the CC display ON with the Dishnet device setup but that just burns the CC's into the video stream which is not why I got the 955Q.
    The DTV converter box I'm using in my test system was made by Dish. I expect that your Dish satellite receiver also outputs analog line 21 closed captions over its composite video connection but I can't test with a Dish satellite receiver since I don't have Dish satellite service. I don't have a 955Q either. I have a WinTV HVR-2250 PCI-e TV tuner card.

    You can test to make sure CCs are available via the Dish receiver's composite video out by connecting the composite out from the Dish satellite receiver to your TV. All the TV remotes I have seen include a closed caption button to turn on the TV's closed caption function. Most TVs, even 4K models still include a composite video port. Sometimes it is the familiar yellow RCA port. Sometimes the composite video and analog stereo audio ports are provided via an accessory cable that plugs into a 3.5mm AV port. Sometimes the blue or green component video port doubles as the composite video port. If you don't know where to find the TV's composite port, you could consult the TV's manual to find out where it is.

    I can't do anything more until Mom (100 years old) goes to bed. She panics if I am out of her sight for very long.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 29th Nov 2020 at 19:27.
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    Last night I tried to extract closed captions with CCExtractor GUI from recordings made with WinTV 8 using my WinTV HVR-2250 TV card's composite video and stereo audio inputs. I ticked the checkbox for "File was captured with a Hauppauge card..." on the Advanced input options tab under the Miscellaneous options section. I had no luck.

    I swear that CCExtractor GUI did work for me in the past with recordings made with my WinTV HVR-2250 TV card from an analog source although not right away. I needed some help to find the setting for extracting recordings originating from Hauppauge cards. There is a thread detailing that here:https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/363840-Extract-closed-captions-from-PVR

    There is other software (GraphStudio) I can try using for making recordings, if I can create a working graph. I started working on that last night. It looks like CC's should be available from the hardware. I'm also going to try my current PVR software, NextPVR. In theory, it should be easier to find other software that can record using the 955Q because it does not encode with an on-board chip. Instead, it uses software running on your PC for encoding.
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  9. The CC data STREAM either is not present on the signal of ANY output of this DISHsat DVR or it is but the 955Q cannot resolve it. I tested ALL outputs in all modes single and dual on the receiver and no outputs carried the CC data observable by the wintv/955q. I was even able to get the RF distribution output tuned in on CH21 and CH23 on the WinTV/955Q. No matter what I tried the only CC's that are observable are when the burned in CC's are turned on with the receivers settings. WinTV 8.5/10/955Q cannot natively resolve ANY CC's at all in any way from this receiver.

    If the wintv 8.5/10/955Q cannot resolve any CC's ON ITS OWN by setting up and turning on the CC display in WINTV, leaving OFF the receiver CC display, NO CC data will be captured as there nothing to save to the capture file. If the receiver used either a separate data stream as someone suggested earlier or there is Line 21 data it should be an adequate test to verify if the wintv/955Q combo will resolve the data on its own right in the WINTV display. I never got any CC data decoded by the wintv/955Q. Hence no data would be available in the captured files. Just audio/video streams. That's it.

    So it appears this is a TOTAL fail.
    Last edited by thghgv; 30th Nov 2020 at 19:22.
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  10. You still haven't tried running composite video from the satellite box to a TV to test for line 21 CCs?
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    The CC data STREAM either is not present on the signal of ANY output of this DISHsat DVR or it is but the 955Q cannot resolve it. I tested ALL outputs in all modes single and dual on the receiver and no outputs carried the CC data observable by the wintv/955q. I was even able to get the RF distribution output tuned in on CH21 and CH23 on the WinTV/955Q. No matter what I tried the only CC's that are observable are when the burned in CC's are turned on with the receivers settings. WinTV 8.5/10/955Q cannot natively resolve ANY CC's at all in any way from this receiver.

    If the wintv 8.5/10/955Q cannot resolve any CC's ON ITS OWN by setting up and turning on the CC display in WINTV, leaving OFF the receiver CC display, NO CC data will be captured as there nothing to save to the capture file. If the receiver used either a separate data stream as someone suggested earlier or there is Line 21 data it should be an adequate test to verify if the wintv/955Q combo will resolve the data on its own right in the WINTV display. I never got any CC data decoded by the wintv/955Q. Hence no data would be available in the captured files. Just audio/video streams. That's it.

    So it appears this is a TOTAL fail.
    It is too soon to give up. Sometimes getting analog captures to work properly takes time. You don't know for sure where the problem lies. Troubleshooting needs to be done systematically. You first need to make sure that composite out from the Dish receiver includes analog Line 21 CCs in its video signal. You do that by turning CC display off on the Dish receiver and connecting the Dish receiver's composite video out to the TV. Then, switch the TV to its composite signal and use the CC button on the TV remote to turn on closed captions. If the TV itself can display CC's sent to it via a composite video signal then you'll know there is something available to capture.
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    I found another relevant CC thread in which I was a participant: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/372751-Preserve-closed-caption

    I can't explain why it was apparently possible to use WinTV to capture CCs via HVR-2250's analog connections and extract them using CCExtractor GUI then but not now. I know that Windows 7's Media Center could capture CCs from the WinTV HVR-2250's analog connections or its analog tuner but Windows Media Center is not officially approved for use with Windows 10. Tonight I'm going to see if it is possible to install a third-party port of Windows Media Center on my Windows 10 PC and capture a WTV file that includes closed captions using it. Hauppauge's newer TV tuner cards tended to work well with WMC.
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  13. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    It is too soon to give up. Sometimes getting analog captures to work properly takes time. You don't know for sure where the problem lies. Troubleshooting needs to be done systematically. You first need to make sure that composite out from the Dish receiver includes analog Line 21 CCs in its video signal. You do that by turning CC display off on the Dish receiver and connecting the Dish receiver's composite video out to the TV. Then, switch the TV to its composite signal and use the CC button on the TV remote to turn on closed captions. If the TV itself can display CC's sent to it via a composite video signal then you'll know there is something available to capture.
    Let me riddle you this... IF there are no CC's decoded by the WINTV10/955Q combo in the winTV capture window why would trying to get a TV to decode them from a composite input be any different? (unless the WinTV CC decode/capture is dodgy somehow)...

    just fyi - I am not running win10 for an OS. WIN7 Ult only...
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Let me riddle you this... IF there are no CC's decoded by the WINTV10/955Q combo in the winTV capture window why would trying to get a TV to decode them from a composite input be any different? (unless the WinTV CC decode/capture is dodgy somehow)...

    just fyi - I am not running win10 for an OS. WIN7 Ult only...
    Exactly so. WinTV 10 may be able to display and record the picture information in an analog composite signal and still lack the ability to capture CCs or display CCs from that source even if CCs are present in the signal.

    Analog CC's are in line 21, which is part of the vertical blanking interval in an NTSC composite video signal. (The VBI does not contain picture information but parts of it store analog CC's and some other non-picture information.) Microsoft wanted its Windows Media Center software to have the ability to decode, display, and record analog CCs. So, to be compliant with Windows Media Center requirements, PC TV tuner devices made for N. America include driver components to do those things. However, other software doesn't necessarily make use of those driver components.

    WinTV 8 (and likely WinTV 10) does display CCs from ATSC DTV broadcasts and recordings from ATSC channels include CCs. However, the CCs for ATSC streams are stored in the GOP user data for the MPEG-2 video in the broadcast stream and are decoded with different driver components. So it is possible for WinTV to be able to display and record CC's from ATSC broadcasts but not be able to do the same for CCs in composite video signals.

    I'm going to try to use WMC to record an analog signal using my TV card but it will take time for me to set that up.
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  15. Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Let me riddle you this... IF there are no CC's decoded by the WINTV10/955Q combo in the winTV capture window why would trying to get a TV to decode them from a composite input be any different? (unless the WinTV CC decode/capture is dodgy somehow)...
    That's the whole point: you don't know for sure if WinTV really supports line 21 CC (the only possible type of CC available with NTSC composite video). So you check with a TV that you knows supports line 21 CC.
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  16. My main video machine is currently in the midst of doing a complete system backup image and will take a bit of time to complete. I will test tomorrow with the 955Q on a TV to see if any CC's emanate from it in any shape or form. I will also try out WMC with the 955Q and see how it acts in reference to CC's.

    Nice to know that there possibly is still hope to get this to work. I'll report back with findings.

    thx all.
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    My main video machine is currently in the midst of doing a complete system backup image and will take a bit of time to complete. I will test tomorrow with the 955Q on a TV to see if any CC's emanate from it in any shape or form. I will also try out WMC with the 955Q and see how it acts in reference to CC's.

    Nice to know that there possibly is still hope to get this to work. I'll report back with findings.

    thx all.
    Regarding WMC, setting it up may not be as simple as it used to be. For one thing, Microsoft's guide service has been discontinued. If you can connect the Dish box's PVR distribution port to the 955Q, try setting up WMC to record from the HVR-955Q's analog tuner. Hopefully, you can play recordings and get a signal with CC's from the Dish box's PVR distribution port.

    In order to use WMC to capture from the 955Q's composite video connection, it is necessary to have an MCE compatible RC6 remote control and a matching USB IR receiver with IR blaster capability. (example: https://www.amazon.com/Azend-Group-MediaGate-HA-IR01SV-Ultimate/dp/B00123UGWQ/) Unfortunately, the remote and receiver that comes with the 955Q won't work for WMC.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 2nd Dec 2020 at 20:05.
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  18. Ok . It's now verified that from the DISH PVR (CC display disabled) using its comp video 1 out to a TV comp input with CC decoding turned ON for that TV input that CC's appear present on that output.

    HOWEVER, when playing back the same content material, now known to have CC data embedded into it, to computer capture via the 955Q checking the resultant file with MEDIAINFO reveals NO sub or CC stream present. Unless the CC data preserved some other way in the .TS file. Running these recorded files thru CCE even with the "hauppauge" setting ticked yields 0 byte .SRT files.
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Ok . It's now verified that from the DISH PVR (CC display disabled) using its comp video 1 out to a TV comp input with CC decoding turned ON for that TV input that CC's appear present on that output.

    HOWEVER, when playing back the same content material, now known to have CC data embedded into it, to computer capture via the 955Q checking the resultant file with MEDIAINFO reveals NO sub or CC stream present. Unless the CC data preserved some other way in the .TS file. Running these recorded files thru CCE even with the "hauppauge" setting ticked yields 0 byte .SRT files.
    Was the TS file recorded using WinTV 8? WinTV 8 didn't work for me either. I thought maybe Windows 10 had something to do with my difficulty, but apparently not.

    I also tried to record from my converter box's coax out, but could only record audio from that connection using my Windows 10 PC. I will have to try taking my TV tuner card out of my Windows 10 PC and re-installing it in my Windows 7 TV to use Windows Media Center. ...but I need to use a cane to get around now, which makes nearly everything harder than it used to be.
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  20. I seem to recall that the WinTV CC are included as a subchannel in the video stream, not a separate digital stream. MediaInfo doesn't see them and you need special software to extract them into a usable form.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    I seem to recall that the WinTV CC are included as a subchannel in the video stream, not a separate digital stream. MediaInfo doesn't see them and you need special software to extract them into a usable form.
    That is my understanding as well. I think that CCExtractorGUI is supposed to be able to turn this type of CC into SRT subs if the checkbox for "File was captured with a Hauppauge card..." is ticked on the Advanced input options tab under the Miscellaneous options section.
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  22. Ah, yes. If you search for ccextractorgui and hauppauge there are several threads that discuss it.
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  23. I spoke with Hauppauge about this. Apparently they say that winTV 8, 8.5, or 10 is NOT CAPABLE, out of the box, of recording or resolving composite (analog) line 21 captions without some "programming changes". The "programming changes" apparently consist of registering some DLL's and a few registry tweaks. This information is supposedly going to be sent to me from the UK headquarters if it's possible. So I guess I'll see what they have to say when they email..

    When I asked, there was made mention of another PVR app that they said was supposed to work with the 955Q and Line 21 captions called NextPVR. It's a freeware so I might check it out as well...

    -- Checked out "NextPVR" and deemed it too obtuse for my tastes since I do not care about recording digital tv off the net, or off the air, or setting up some kind of media center thing. In reading the terse documentation for it there is no mention of captions anywhere that I could see. PLUS it seems to require a INTERNET connection for install which I do not maintain on the target machine. There is no complete "offline" installer that I could find so... hell with it.

    I will wait to see what hauppauge comes up with...
    Last edited by thghgv; 8th Dec 2020 at 14:46.
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  24. Guess it was my bad for not contacting hauppauge in the first place.

    NONE of this is possible with the HVR955Q. Analog composite video vbi CC's aren't even able to be displayed on a 955Q NOR a 950 either. In fact NONE of the HPG usb tuners will work with vbi based CC's. The ONLY THING THEY WILL DO RE: CC'S IS IF THE SOURCE SIGNAL IS DIGITAL TV OR QAM. NO S-video- NO compisite no HDMI - NO NOTHING.

    What HPG says WILL work with composite video vbi CC's is a 1950 with WinTV 6 - which they were kind enough to supply me with a copy of.. no serial required.

    so there it is...
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    I spoke with Hauppauge about this. Apparently they say that winTV 8, 8.5, or 10 is NOT CAPABLE, out of the box, of recording or resolving composite (analog) line 21 captions without some "programming changes". The "programming changes" apparently consist of registering some DLL's and a few registry tweaks. This information is supposedly going to be sent to me from the UK headquarters if it's possible. So I guess I'll see what they have to say when they email..

    When I asked, there was made mention of another PVR app that they said was supposed to work with the 955Q and Line 21 captions called NextPVR. It's a freeware so I might check it out as well...

    -- Checked out "NextPVR" and deemed it too obtuse for my tastes since I do not care about recording digital tv off the net, or off the air, or setting up some kind of media center thing. In reading the terse documentation for it there is no mention of captions anywhere that I could see. PLUS it seems to require a INTERNET connection for install which I do not maintain on the target machine. There is no complete "offline" installer that I could find so... hell with it.

    I will wait to see what hauppauge comes up with...
    NextPVR uses the Internet connection to obtain program guide data. I'm a long-time NextPVR user and already had it set-up for my Hauppauge card. I tried NextPVR to see if it would work for capturing CCs from a composite video source using my Hauppauge card, which has a hardware encoder. It didn't work for capturing closed captions. However, your device has a software encoder so I guess it could work.

    I removed the Hauppauge card and tomorrow I will attempt to install it in my Windows 7 system to try it with Windows Media Center.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 10th Dec 2020 at 21:44.
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  26. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post

    NextPVR uses the Internet connection to obtain program guide data. I'm a long-time NextPVR user and already had it set-up for my Hauppauge card. I tried NextPVR to see if it would work for capturing CCs from a composite video source using my Hauppauge card, which has a hardware encoder. It didn't work for capturing closed captions. However, your device has a software encoder so I guess it could work.

    I removed the Hauppauge card and tomorrow I will attempt to install it in my Windows 7 system to try it with Windows Media Center.
    Don't bother. According to HPG NONE of this is possible with the HVR-955Q. Analog composite video vbi CC's aren't even able to be displayed on a 955Q NOR a 950 either. They gave me their "programming change" which I implemented for WinTV 10, that they say WILL ONLY ALLOW DISPLAY OF CC'S NOT CAPTURE, and that doesn't even work at all... In fact NONE of the HPG usb tuners will work with vbi based CC's. The ONLY THING HPG says these usb tuners WILL DO RE: CC'S is display/capture IF THE SOURCE SIGNAL IS DIGITAL TV OR QAM. They DO NOT provide display/capture with S-video, composite, HDMI - or anything else.

    The ONLY thing what HPG says WILL work with composite video vbi CC's is a HVR-1950 with WinTV 6 - which they were kind enough to supply me with a copy of.. no serial required.

    so there it is...
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    Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post

    NextPVR uses the Internet connection to obtain program guide data. I'm a long-time NextPVR user and already had it set-up for my Hauppauge card. I tried NextPVR to see if it would work for capturing CCs from a composite video source using my Hauppauge card, which has a hardware encoder. It didn't work for capturing closed captions. However, your device has a software encoder so I guess it could work.

    I removed the Hauppauge card and tomorrow I will attempt to install it in my Windows 7 system to try it with Windows Media Center.
    Don't bother. According to HPG NONE of this is possible with the HVR-955Q. Analog composite video vbi CC's aren't even able to be displayed on a 955Q NOR a 950 either. They gave me their "programming change" which I implemented for WinTV 10, that they say WILL ONLY ALLOW DISPLAY OF CC'S NOT CAPTURE, and that doesn't even work at all... In fact NONE of the HPG usb tuners will work with vbi based CC's. The ONLY THING HPG says these usb tuners WILL DO RE: CC'S is display/capture IF THE SOURCE SIGNAL IS DIGITAL TV OR QAM. They DO NOT provide display/capture with S-video, composite, HDMI - or anything else.

    The ONLY thing what HPG says WILL work with composite video vbi CC's is a HVR-1950 with WinTV 6 - which they were kind enough to supply me with a copy of.. no serial required.

    so there it is...
    I think my card may get better reception in a different location. So if I am going to move it anyway, I might as well find out what WMC does with analog input containing CCs. Microsoft may include some Direct Show components for WMC that Hauppauge doesn't supply with their tuners.

    What HPG told you may or may not be accurate. People who have been members of this forum longer than I have been say that HPG is less knowledgeable about their own products and video in general than they used to be.
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  28. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    What HPG told you may or may not be accurate. People who have been members of this forum longer than I have been say that HPG is less knowledgeable about their own products and video in general than they used to be.
    So far HPG has called everything correct with what I am seeing via testing here so far (with the exception of their so-called "programming change" for WinTV 10)... HPG says they HAVE TESTED AND CONFIRMED BOTH THEMSELVES AND WITH A NUMBER OF CUSTOMERS who are looking to get vbi based CC's from composite analog video signals THAT THE HVR-1950 using WinTV 6 in fact records the captions intact to a disk file that can later be recovered through means of additional processing (i.e. CCE).

    Apparently vbi based CC's were abandoned in ALL the HPG capture wares from WinTV 7 on... What I didn't query them on was if their HARDWARE was capable of passing the signals untouched to something that COULD record it. Problem is I have found NO 3rd party capture ware that does JUST WHAT I NEED IT TO DO without a bunch of extra useless garbage I don't need. NextPVR would be a prime example of that bloatware concept... HPG mentioned that WinTV 6 and the HVR-955Q would probably work for analog vbi captions, but that WinTV 6 being pre-dated to the hardware would not "talk" to the 955Q.

    If ANYone has a brilliant suggestion on a NON-BLOATWARE alternative to WinTV 7-10 that DOES CAPTURE TO FILE vbi captions from analog composite video that would "talk" to a HVR-955Q please dish with the info!
    Last edited by thghgv; 12th Dec 2020 at 16:53.
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  29. Originally Posted by thghgv View Post
    Apparently vbi based CC's were abandoned in ALL the HPG capture wares from WinTV 7 on...
    Just because their capture software doesn't support it doesn't mean the hardware doesn't. As usually_quiet mentioned before, you might be able to get the line21 CC using a filter graph in GraphEdit. He gave a link to a thread with an example:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/363840-Extract-closed-captions-from-PVR/page2#post2317348

    That was with a different capture device but it's almost certain that the chip in your device supports CC. The companies that make those chips don't remove that sort of feature in later designs.
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    The heyday of analog video is long past and the fact that analog TV is almost extinct now means that hardware and software that does what you want to do is harder come by in 2020.

    Nearly all capture-only devices and most of software for them are primarily intended to record from non-TV sources and don't include the ability to capture CCs. However, some PVR software that is designed to work with analog TV tuners/capture devices to record the video output from cable and satellite boxes can capture CCs along with the video from the box's coax output or composite video output. That is why I suggested PVR software (NextPVR and Windows Media Center) instead of "nonbloatware" capture software. For what it's worth, WinTV isn't strictly capture software. WinTV includes PVR functionality and it needs Internet access to schedule recordings via TitanTV listings.

    Most PC TV tuners and many capture devices have DirectShow drivers. There is an interesting utilty called GraphEdit which is a part of the Microsoft DirectShow SDK. It is a visual tool for building and testing filter graphs for DirectShow. Some here (including me) have used it or similar programs (GraphStudio or GraphStudioNext) to build DirectShow filter graphs and create our own capture graph that can record video with closed captions from a TV tuner/SD analog capture device. (DirectShow filters are installed with the TV tuner's device drivers.) It's about as no-frills as one can get but not at all beginner-friendly. Finding the right combination of filters and connecting them in the right order is often a frustrating matter of trial and error. Sometimes the right combination of filters cannot be found. Here are instructions that I wrote for building a filter graph for another capture device. https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/363840-Extract-closed-captions-from-PVR/page2#post2317348

    The most fool-proof equipment that I ever used for capturing video that includes CCs from a composite video source were my US-model stand-alone DVD recorders from Panasonic and Magnavox. The problem is that nobody makes DVD recorders anymore and used models in good working condition are not cheap.

    [Edit] It looks like jagabo and I had a similar thought process.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 12th Dec 2020 at 20:39.
    Ignore list: hello_hello, tried, TechLord, Snoopy329
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