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  1. Wow seems to be very complicated! Far beyond my knowledge..
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  2. Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    Originally Posted by FD2020 View Post
    from what I can tell rgb scart is generally a lot better than composite scart. we had a lot of scart cables here in the uk bundled with consoles and entertainment electronics but they were almost always composite rather than rgb despite the consoles themselves having the ability to output rgb rather than composite over scart.
    Sorry, I forgot to comment on the "RGB" aspect you mentioned. The comparable term for non-SCART recorders in North/South America and Asia is "component video" - if researching the latency topic with other game recording enthusiasts, experiences reported with component video would almost certainly carry over to RGB SCART. Thats because SCART just consolidates all the traditional multi-socket connections into a single multi-pin connection brick. Non-EU recorders have three video pinouts for R-G-B (component), one pinout for composite video, and two pinouts for L+R stereo audio, all doubled sets for input and output. SCART combines all those sockets into the single connector, with the actual function chosen electronically within the unit or externally with adapters.

    There is a "gotcha" to look out for with SCART dvd recorders, however: some of them have restrictions or glitches in RGB functionality (input and/or output). Very few USA/Canada recorder models have component RGB input ability: RGB is strictly an output connection with input limited to composite or S-Video (non-EU Sony models follow this rule, as do many Panasonics even within EU). Before investing significant money in a switch or other accessories, make sure your Sony 870 can actually pass gameplay RGB unfettered thru simultaneous input/output. According to the 870 instruction manual, the unit does seem to have RGB (component) in+out passthru capability, although it isn't quite clear from the diagrams whether this works directly SCART-to-SCART or requires additional "Euro AV" component breakout adapters (see page 18 in the manual).
    yea I did suspect that it could be composite scart in rather than rgb but I did a search through the manual and noticed the same, that it does indicate rgb input is supported with a caveat that output via hdmi is restricted when using rgb output. the way this seems to be setup is that if you initialise the hdmi output,then the scart output is limited to "video" output which I suspect is composite. this is not a huge dealbreaker because a composite output through scart to a crt would not look that bad (it looks a lot worse on modern displays rather than crt's) and since I am using the passthrough to play on a crt the most important hit on the experience would be input lag as I plan to capture a good quality image by splitting the signal. in this setup the capture should be taking place a stage before it goes out to the scart out ,before it gets converted to a composite signal. but the issue here is that if I am not splitting the signal before it gets to the recorder,using a dedicated splitter, there could be latency. technically it should just passthrough with rgb in and out, but since this is also upscaling for the purposes of recording then that could introduce lag? i think some tv's had something called "game mode" where the lag is ofset in display options, but I don't think such a thing exists here.

    before I purchased the 870 I noticed no component inputs ,I did a search for dvd recorders with component inputs before picking up the 870 as I figured those connections would be handy, and realised such a thing was incredibly rare. this would have been helpful because 6th generation consoles took advantage of component output, most notably xbox and ps2. but rgb is (in some cases) comparable and s-video is a good compromise. even though component is a similar concept, I have seen differences between rgb output and component output when recorded side by side. rbg is very suseptible to degradation in quality. component is also, but with component high quality leads and parts are usually much cheaper. in general, you can get a good component setup for gaming for a fraction of the cost of a good rgb setup.

    one other option I am considering is using a secondary dvd recorder which will act as a lag free passthrough. the chain would be ,image from console through rgb scart cables into dvd recorder, no upscaling or recording taking place, passing through the signal and the image being split through rgb output and composite out (I would need a recorder that has both composite out and rgb). composite goes to the crt with zero lag and the rgb goes through to the 870 uncompromised. in theory, that would be cheaper than using an rgb splitter. I had a look at prices for rgb scart splitters and I am seeing people recommending products which cost $100-200. I would need to seek advice on that option though for recommendations for a device that doesn't upscale and can split a signal to composite and rgb and ofc is lag free.
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  3. Originally Posted by FD2020 View Post
    the issue here is that if I am not splitting the signal before it gets to the recorder,using a dedicated splitter, there could be latency. technically it should just passthrough with rgb in and out, but since this is also upscaling for the purposes of recording then that could introduce lag?
    I suppose it depends which of the Sony 870 output taps you are connecting to which kind of display, along with other gear and its position in the setup. Admittedly, I'm lost in the weeds by your description of how everything hooks together in your existing/planned gaming capture arrangement: this is not something I've done so I may not be quite wrapping my head around it properly.

    SCART RGB performance I am not familiar with at all: technically is should be similar to component but I don't know exactly how it is implemented in these recorders as far as potential latency.

    HDMI possibly introduces some latency, depending how much work you're asking it to do (480i might be fractionally faster than any faux upscaling setting, OTOH the HDTV itself will always de-interlace/upscale 480i dvd recorder input on the fly which might be a compounding factor).

    With analog CRT displays:

    The Sony component output probably has little to no latency, comparable to its composite (aka "video") out and S-video outs.

    There is no additional latency invoked simply by passing a signal thru the recorder while it is recording: at least not that I've ever seen. The unit records in the same 480i it receives as input: while in theory the AD encoder should impose a noticeable latency, in practice it isn't apparent with analog passthru.

    There can be timing issues if audio is routed thru a separate amplifier system bypassing the TV display internal audio (in which case lipsync sometimes drifts perceptibly). If audio + video are maintained in the same circuit path all the way around, you shouldn't encounter any lag thru any of the outputs. Of course your own personal tests for your specific needs may reveal unforeseen lag in some connection variations: unlikely but possible.
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    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    , I believe some users did test the results of standard HQ vs LPCM HQ, and their reports were approx what you suggest: standard HQ (MN32) has very slightly better video than LPCM HQ. This is because both "flavors" of HQ are engineered to fit exactly 61 mins on a dvd, so each is a different compromise. Standard HQ (MN32) has more bitrate for video since the audio uses standard dvd compression, LPCM HQ sacrifices some video bitrate to make more room for uncompressed LPCM audio. (Game recording usually prizes video performance over audio, so standard HQ seems the preferable choice for that task.) There is no user-customizable option to vary these compromises of video vs audio: you can only choose between standard HQ and LPCM HQ. LPCM is not available as an audio choice in any other mode besides LPCM (which is always HQ video mode).
    Good to get that clarification or restating of just what that LPCM thing was about. So, I probably wasn't wrong in choosing LPCM as the max. choice for covering concert type material on the Pioneers, if you wanted to prioritize for the music . . . ? Also good to find that all of that MN32 -- where I used it -- was not in vain. HQ+: an easy confusion to have. It's likely I dimly recalled something about that, and just never went there. This definitely squares with my never having noticed any alert screen indicating that some down-res re-encoding was taking place, something I don't think I would have missed.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  5. I have made some progress. I picked up another dvd recorder from ebay, a sony gx120 for 2.20. the postage was nearly 3x that, but still a bargain. works fine. now I can pass through the signal out of this into the 870 to record in there while simultaneously sending the signal out to a crt. it's as lag free as I am gonna get it. I have recorded some gameplay and burned this to disc without a hitch, but the main problem now seems to be getting the dvd footage off the dvd. I tried to put the burned dvd into the laptop and it whirled and crunched and sped up and slowed down for a couple of mins and then powered down. I tried vob2mpg and it doesn't work at all on this laptop keeps giving me this error;

    this application has encountered an error 0xD0000135

    Please contact the publisher of this application for more information.

    I looked up the information. looks like the application hasn't been updated since 2010? guessing it might be incompatible with latest versions of windows? I tried handbrake but its asking for the disc to be inserted when it's already been inserted. I reinsert the disc and it performs the same thing of booting up and then slowing down again before stopping spinning completely. I am using these dvd-rw's https://www.ryman.co.uk/verbatim-dvd-dvd-rw-10-spindle-2
    I have another pc I could try and rip the discs from but it's not here where I live I would to travel to my parents. not sure when that's even gonna happen with covid. it's hard to determine why the disc isn't being recognised because it's not giving me any error messages it;s simply failing to read it? think I should try a different brand of dvds?
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    VOB2MPG doesn't work for me on Win 10 either (I used it a lot on Win 7). However, the other VOB2MPG, named DVDVob2MPG works well. Just remember to tick the box for joining the VOBs into one MPG.

    https://www.videohelp.com/software/DVDVob2Mpg

    I did have one hiccup where it would only transfer the first VOB; it worked normally after a computer reboot.


    I have found DVD-RWs a bit flaky. To isolate the DVD reading issue, you could try using a standard DVD-R.
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  7. Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    VOB2MPG doesn't work for me on Win 10 either (I used it a lot on Win 7). However, the other VOB2MPG, named DVDVob2MPG works well. Just remember to tick the box for joining the VOBs into one MPG.

    https://www.videohelp.com/software/DVDVob2Mpg

    I did have one hiccup where it would only transfer the first VOB; it worked normally after a computer reboot.


    I have found DVD-RWs a bit flaky. To isolate the DVD reading issue, you could try using a standard DVD-R.
    thanks i'll try that alternative once I can get the drive to read dvds. it could be that this dvd drive on this laptop is terrible? I think I remember the ones at my parents remember being pretty bulletproof.... so maybe a combination of dvds which aren't the best quality and a drive on a laptop which is subpar could be my problem here? handbrake seems pretty catered to for getting files off of dvds. afaik it's always been free? and is still in development. any recommendations for alternative dvd-rw ? better brands maybe?
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    Sorry, I haven't touched an RW in years, I don't like them!
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  9. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FD2020 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    VOB2MPG doesn't work for me on Win 10 either (I used it a lot on Win 7). However, the other VOB2MPG, named DVDVob2MPG works well. Just remember to tick the box for joining the VOBs into one MPG.

    https://www.videohelp.com/software/DVDVob2Mpg

    I did have one hiccup where it would only transfer the first VOB; it worked normally after a computer reboot.


    I have found DVD-RWs a bit flaky. To isolate the DVD reading issue, you could try using a standard DVD-R.
    thanks i'll try that alternative once I can get the drive to read dvds. it could be that this dvd drive on this laptop is terrible? I think I remember the ones at my parents remember being pretty bulletproof.... so maybe a combination of dvds which aren't the best quality and a drive on a laptop which is subpar could be my problem here? handbrake seems pretty catered to for getting files off of dvds. afaik it's always been free? and is still in development. any recommendations for alternative dvd-rw ? better brands maybe?
    It was probably in another thread, but I have posted about not being able to read RWs in certain optical drives (still need to identify which ones, for future reference), but I think in each of those cases I was able to read and access them after switching to another computer that had a different brand / model of burner in it. It seems quite plausible to me that certain low-grade RWs could also be implicated, as another scenario. My best results have come with using TDK 4x rated -RWs, now hard to find, or the Verbatim 4x rated -RWs. The -RWs in general seem to have faded in general availability, edged out by the +RWs, and these can (or do ?) have compatibility issues with the DVDRs I have used. They are generally less versatile in use as well.

    I would strongly recommend that you check out IsoBuster. It is the court of last resort, when you need to access a disc and try to salvage contents off of it.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  10. Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    Originally Posted by FD2020 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    VOB2MPG doesn't work for me on Win 10 either (I used it a lot on Win 7). However, the other VOB2MPG, named DVDVob2MPG works well. Just remember to tick the box for joining the VOBs into one MPG.

    https://www.videohelp.com/software/DVDVob2Mpg

    I did have one hiccup where it would only transfer the first VOB; it worked normally after a computer reboot.


    I have found DVD-RWs a bit flaky. To isolate the DVD reading issue, you could try using a standard DVD-R.
    thanks i'll try that alternative once I can get the drive to read dvds. it could be that this dvd drive on this laptop is terrible? I think I remember the ones at my parents remember being pretty bulletproof.... so maybe a combination of dvds which aren't the best quality and a drive on a laptop which is subpar could be my problem here? handbrake seems pretty catered to for getting files off of dvds. afaik it's always been free? and is still in development. any recommendations for alternative dvd-rw ? better brands maybe?
    It was probably in another thread, but I have posted about not being able to read RWs in certain optical drives (still need to identify which ones, for future reference), but I think in each of those cases I was able to read and access them after switching to another computer that had a different brand / model of burner in it. It seems quite plausible to me that certain low-grade RWs could also be implicated, as another scenario. My best results have come with using TDK 4x rated -RWs, now hard to find, or the Verbatim 4x rated -RWs. The -RWs in general seem to have faded in general availability, edged out by the +RWs, and these can (or do ?) have compatibility issues with the DVDRs I have used. They are generally less versatile in use as well.

    I would strongly recommend that you check out IsoBuster. It is the court of last resort, when you need to access a disc and try to salvage contents off of it.
    would isobuster help in instances of using low grade rw's? I will try my other rw drives. I do remember buying specific dvd rw drives back when they became a new thing for pc's and I am pretty sure these were good drives back then. I guess I will find out how good once I get around to trying them. thanks for mentioning tdk, I will try out some of these if I can get them.
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  11. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Isobuster is the best program of its kind that I'm aware of. If it can't access something, the problem may be insoluble. But it's worth trying on different hardware. For some discs that I couldn't play elsewhere, I hooked up my trusty Sony DRX-S70U external USB burner (a really good one, originally intended for travel and use with a laptop; they might still be found on eBay) and was able to access the disc. But this would not help with a disc that was defective, cracked, or that sort of thing, and Isobuster might not be of much use there either.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  12. Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    Isobuster is the best program of its kind that I'm aware of.
    i'll keep it in mind.

    Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    For some discs that I couldn't play elsewhere, I hooked up my trusty Sony DRX-S70U external USB burner (a really good one, originally intended for travel and use with a laptop; they might still be found on eBay) and was able to access the disc.
    thanks for mentioning this, I was just wondering if a hardware solution exists where all else fails in terms of burner drives for pc.
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  13. The problem you're having with -RW discs being unreadable outside your Sony RDR-HXD870 recorder is most likely due to them being improperly formatted by the recorder. Those Verbatim 4x -RW are fairly decent RW media, I wouldn't expect the entire pack of them to be defective.

    Like its sister Pioneer models, the Sony RDR-HXD-870 has an annoying quirk in its default formatting of -RW discs. Instead of defaulting to "Video" format and prompting you to finalize for compatible playback outside the unit, the 870 defaults to formatting -RW in proprietary VR mode. -RW burned in this mode cannot easily be played or ripped outside the Sony recorder: ISObuster might be able to (tediously) rip them, and CyberLink PowerDVD software player will play them in a PC, but this is limiting/inconvenient at best.

    Going forward, you can make things easier by remembering to manually override the Sony to format all brand new -RW discs in "Video" mode. Upon insertion of the new disc, go to Home Menu>Setup>Disc Setup, arrow down to Initialize, arrow right and down from VR Mode to Video Mode, then right to Start. You'll see a bar graph on screen tick off the formatting time, takes less than a minute. Once formatted, you can record directly to the dvd, or record to the 870 hard drive and copy later to the dvd. When the dvd is full or you have completed it to your satisfaction, go to Home Menu>Setup>Disc Setup and click on the Finalize option, then arrow right to Start, the recorder will present you with several disc menu designs to choose from. Click on one, and the 870 will proceed to Finalize the disc (make it universally compatible). An on-screen bar graph appears for this as well, takes a minute or two to finish.

    Unfortunately there is no option in the 870 to permanently change the default -RW format, so you must manually choose "Video Mode" for every brand new -RW you want to use with the unit. I would suggest just feeding it all 10 -RWs in the package one after another, until you've pre-formatted them all, then return them to the container (and label it so you'll know they're all meant for use with your 870). Note you must remember to do the Finalize step prior to ripping or playing each completed disc in your PC. When you're ready to recycle/reuse a disc, just format it to Video Mode again as you did the first time: this is the best way to cleanly erase it.

    The 870 recorder operates a bit easier with single-use -R or +R because its default format for those media types is Video Mode, allowing the Finalize for compatibility option. +RW automatically defaults to the dedicated +RW format which is widely (tho not 100%) compatible for PC ripping and playback without having to Finalize.
    Last edited by orsetto; 6th Dec 2020 at 20:13.
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