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  1. Member
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    I've been rolling this in my mind for a while. Any type of physical media, doesn't have to be a rip or even digital.

    Say a new type of copy protection was developed that was absolutely unrippable and even an analog copy ala Cinavia was unviewable. Would you buy a movie/series on this new media? What if it was the only way you could watch that new movie in 8K+ on your new Super Hi-RES cinema color grade display? What if it was super cheap, say $10, so you could buy 2-3 for the cost of a single Blu-Ray? Would you buy it then?

    I don't have the stats on this, but I highly suspect that all optical disc format sales rose once the copy protection on that disc was broken. I remember people, even some posters here saying "I'll never buy a 4K disc if I can't back it up! Fair Use and all!"
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  2. Member netmask56's Avatar
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    No because it ignores modern consumer playback habits - in the home on a media player attached to a screen and on their phone or laptop when traveling (me) and in a house with multiple screens accessing a central NAS (my situation). Commercially not viable. I have observed it seems to be more difficult to make legit copies for ones own use compared to my country where we can record free to air TV on a PVR on locally available equipment Topfield, Humax, Beyonwiz Enigma2 clones etc and transfer to a PC or MAC for archival or converting to a format for an iPhone etc. Same with region free and zone free devices, being so close to China and the East and our population of emigrants bringing their equipment and collections here, not a problem.
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  3. Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    Would you buy a movie/series on media that couldn't be backed up?
    No
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    Never say never
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  5. Member Ennio's Avatar
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    Yes, I would buy them. But I always wait with buying the newest titles immediately. Saves me a lot of money in many cases.
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  6. Ret. Hippie Guitar Player Axel Slingerland's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    Would you buy a movie/series on this new media?
    Yes, I would, because my DVD collection is small compared to some people here, only about 1,700 DVDs, but I backed up the vast majority of them with DVDFab 8.2.3.0, a few with 10.1.0.0 and any that wouldn't copy with those were copied with MakeMKV. I believe that there is no such thing as media that absolutely can not be backed up eventually. There have been a few DVDs in my collection that those programs couldn't copy, probably less than 1% or 2% at the most. About 90% of those DVDs had Cinavia on them, and MakeMKV took care of them. I have made a note of which ones do not copy, so that when something new comes out, I can copy them then.


    Originally Posted by Ennio View Post
    But I always wait with buying the newest titles immediately.
    I agree on waiting until prices drop before I buy new movies. I have bought several large DVD box sets for very good prices by doing that.
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    If that was my only option for a title that I very much wanted, yes.
    Ignore list: hello_hello, tried, TechLord, Snoopy329
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  8. Renegade gll99's Avatar
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    Your example implies owning a new player to play this 8K disc. I wouldn't buy a player just to stay up to date. I didn't buy a 4k player for the same reason. I was interested in VR so might have bought a console that did all things, ... games, 3D, VR and BD4k but I wasn't about to buy 2 or 3 types of units for occasional use only.

    Now if I already owned a PlayStation16 that included the ability to play the 8K (or why not a 16K) disc and it's a title I couldn't play any other way and the price was low then why not. I have to buy something to test out this feature on my new fancy dandy 16k game console.
    There's not much to do but then I can't do much anyway.
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  9. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    It really depends on how fragile the optical is.
    DVD was robust.
    A CD or BD were/are pretty crappy.

    The main worry is longevity of the optical players. What good is a disc you can't play in 10-20 years?
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    It really depends on how fragile the optical is.
    DVD was robust.
    A CD or BD were/are pretty crappy.

    The main worry is longevity of the optical players. What good is a disc you can't play in 10-20 years?
    This leads to a thought related to my OP. I've always suspected that AACS and whatever copy protection scheme is used on UHD discs are weaker than the could be because of the necessity of backward compatibility with DVDs. Same with players. I'm sure the manufacturers could put in some kind of anti-copy lock-out (I'm sure many of you remember DVIX DVDs?) if they didn't have to be backward compatible.

    A small example, is the to my knowledge still uncracked copy protection scheme are on some India VCDs that go beyond VCD specs.
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  11. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Was HD DVD ever cracked ? Not that it lasted that long.


    But, be honest now, when you first bought those shiny DVDs that blew VHS out of the water did it actually cross your mind that you would only be able to play them natively ?


    And the thought of not being able to back something up does not bother me. I am probably an exception here since I only play my media natively.
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  12. This is one of the dumbest thread topics I have ever read. How many times does anyone watch the same movie?? If the answer is more than twice, do they have an actual life? If you don't watch it more than twice, why do you have to back it up?

    Finally, no one ever asked my dad why he bought all those 78 rpm records that he couldn't back up. In the same vein, when I bought all my vinyl records back in the 60s, it never occurred to me that I should back them up.

    Silly me, I just listened to the darned things.

    [edit]And let's face it, "backing up" your media is a way to talk about pirating movies, but without getting thrown off the forum for violating copyright rules.

    Yes, that is a provocative statement, but it is also true.
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  13. Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    This is one of the dumbest thread topics I have ever read.
    "one of"? What's the second dumbest thread topic you've ever read?
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    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    This is one of the dumbest thread topics I have ever read. How many times does anyone watch the same movie?? If the answer is more than twice, do they have an actual life? If you don't watch it more than twice, why do you have to back it up?
    Wow...what a week! First lordsmurf refers to me and gamey in the same post at Digitalfaq (LOL, it was a compliment because I goofed on myself) and now my thread is called [one of] the dumbest!

    "How many times does anyone watch the same movie??"

    *Raises hand* As I've said multiple times in other threads, I've watch[ed] Seven Samurai dozens of times over the past 50+ years, twice back to back when I first got my Criterion Laserdisc and I'm been listening to the same Cream songs over and over for the past 40+ years. And yes, I don't have a life. No smoking, no drinking, no women, no socializing. To be honest, I really liked the first lockdown we had, made me feel normal!

    And when I first saw Ryuhei Kitamura's Versus in the early 2000's, I was so enraptured with it, I watched it at least twice a day, every day for two weeks! And when my favorite Taiwanese actress released her CD, I listened to one track multiple times a day and had set it on repeat every night for over a month! [BTW, I still don't know what she's singing, since I don't understand Mandarin). Yeah, I'm a bit OCD!

    I've been around some young people of this generation and when they "love this song", they'll have it on repeat for hours. And YouTube is an example how many times people rewatch the same thing over and over as evidenced by videos that have more views than the entire world population!*

    *An aside, it's a trend in Kpop, Cpop and Jpop fandoms to repeatedly play their favorites over and over again to artificially boost the numbers. It's been proven that some stars got huge numbers because banks of hundreds or thousands of phones were setup to automatically replay the videos.

    I think you're basically the same generation that I am. [I can't believe] you never listened to your favorite record so many times that you had to buy a new one? Unlike you, in my audiophile years in the 70's, I definitely 'backed up' my records to reel to reel tape for fidelity and cassettes for convenience. Even then, when I wanted to do some critical listening, I'd pull out my vinyl and go through the tedious ritual of cleaning both the record and stylus.

    "backing up", at least for me is matter of convenience and accessibility. If I weren't able to rip my thousands of discs, I'd have mutliple 100+ disc changers or carts (I think there was a DVD [changer] with interchangeable carts) organized as I do now, by director, by actress, by genre, etc. And yes, even with thousands of movies and TV shows to choose from, I do rewatch entire movies and shows again and again. Yeah, OCD disguised as appreciation!
    Last edited by lingyi; 22nd Oct 2020 at 21:11.
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    Originally Posted by blimey View Post
    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    This is one of the dumbest thread topics I have ever read.
    "one of"? What's the second dumbest thread topic you've ever read?
    Better not be one of mine! ...

    As my friend told me, I sometimes ask about things that other's think about, but know enough never to ask!
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  16. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    This is one of the dumbest thread topics I have ever read. How many times does anyone watch the same movie?? If the answer is more than twice, do they have an actual life? If you don't watch it more than twice, why do you have to back it up?
    Wow...what a week! First lordsmurf refers to me and gamey in the same post at Digitalfaq (LOL, it was a compliment because I goofed on myself) and now my thread is called [one of] the dumbest!

    "How many times does anyone watch the same movie??"

    *Raises hand* As I've said multiple times in other threads, I've watch[ed] Seven Samurai dozens of times over the past 50+ years, twice back to back when I first got my Criterion Laserdisc and I'm been listening to the same Cream songs over and over for the past 40+ years. And yes, I don't have a life. No smoking, no drinking, no women, no socializing. To be honest, I really liked the first lockdown we had, made me feel normal!

    And when I first saw Ryuhei Kitamura's Versus in the early 2000's, I was so enraptured with it, I watched it at least twice a day, every day for two weeks! And when my favorite Taiwanese actress released her CD, I listened to one track multiple times a day and had set it on repeat every night for over a month! [BTW, I still don't know what she's singing, since I don't understand Mandarin). Yeah, I'm a bit OCD!

    I've been around some young people of this generation and when they "love this song", they'll have it on repeat for hours. And YouTube is an example how many times people rewatch the same thing over and over as evidenced by videos that have more views than the entire world population!*

    *An aside, it's a trend in Kpop, Cpop and Jpop fandoms to repeatedly play their favorites over and over again to artificially boost the numbers. It's been proven that some stars got huge numbers because banks of hundreds or thousands of phones were setup to automatically replay the videos.

    I think you're basically the same generation that I am. [I can't believe] you never listened to your favorite record so many times that you had to buy a new one? Unlike you, in my audiophile years in the 70's, I definitely 'backed up' my records to reel to reel tape for fidelity and cassettes for convenience. Even then, when I wanted to do some critical listening, I'd pull out my vinyl and go through the tedious ritual of cleaning both the record and stylus.

    "backing up", at least for me is matter of convenience and accessibility. If I weren't able to rip my thousands of discs, I'd have mutliple 100+ disc changers or carts (I think there was a DVD [changer] with interchangeable carts) organized as I do now, by director, by actress, by genre, etc. And yes, even with thousands of movies and TV shows to choose from, I do rewatch entire movies and shows again and again. Yeah, OCD disguised as appreciation!
    LOL i guess i'll have to give you a pass from now on. my sig down below from my favorite movie hasn't ever changed
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    "a lot of people are better dead" - prisoner KSC2-303
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  17. Member
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    *High five!*

    Your sig is one of the best and possibly truest lines in movie history!

    Edit: Before you jump on me, it's a joke! Maybe a bad one, but as I said, I just say whatever's on my mind at the moment!

    Edit 2: Upon further reflection, I've realized I went probably went over the line. I won't delete my statement, but I've reported myself to the mods for possible moderation or warning. My sincere apologies if I've offended anyone!
    Last edited by lingyi; 22nd Oct 2020 at 23:30.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Was HD DVD ever cracked ? Not that it lasted that long.
    Yes. If you do a search here you will find a number of posts with advice on how to do it, many made soon after the HD-DVD format was abandoned by the movie industry.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    And the thought of not being able to back something up does not bother me. I am probably an exception here since I only play my media natively.
    I play my movie collection from the original discs as well. However, in the event that the manufacture of optical media and optical disc players ceases, I might want to back up my small movie collection to files at that point.
    Ignore list: hello_hello, tried, TechLord, Snoopy329
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  19. Mr. Computer Geek dannyboy48888's Avatar
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    Not readily. I put all my files on a server to stream to my devices, so if I have to use the disc that defeats the point in my case. I still use dvd and bluray for now for that very reason. Got 1 or 2 discs I had to analog archive but it's the exception rather than the norm.
    Last edited by dannyboy48888; 23rd Oct 2020 at 12:24.
    if all else fails read the manual
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  20. The way things are now, as long as you can play it on a PC you can get a really good capture of anything. And better with a better Graphics card.
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  21. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Was HD DVD ever cracked ? Not that it lasted that long.
    Yes. If you do a search here you will find a number of posts with advice on how to do it, many made soon after the HD-DVD format was abandoned by the movie industry.

    Thnx. I did srch and one of the topics also listed the titles released - all in a two year span IIRC. I do not recall many titles ever being released over here - I seem to recall seeing just a couple of music ones in the main stores. But even native playback on a PC would be an issue now.
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  22. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Same answer:

    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    How many times does anyone watch the same movie??
    Many times. "Iron Man" (Stark)

    Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    [I can't believe] you never listened to your favorite record song so many times
    Many times. "Iron Man" (Ozzy)
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  23. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Same answer:

    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    How many times does anyone watch the same movie??
    Many times. "Iron Man" (Stark)

    Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    [I can't believe] you never listened to your favorite record song so many times
    Many times. "Iron Man" (Ozzy)
    The flash(2014) many times going through the seasons.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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  24. Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    Finally, no one ever asked my dad why he bought all those 78 rpm records that he couldn't back up. In the same vein, when I bought all my vinyl records back in the 60s, it never occurred to me that I should back them up.

    Silly me, I just listened to the darned things.
    Why didn't you copy them to an MP3 player, or make backup copies to play in the car so the originals wouldn't be damaged. Oh that's right.....

    Has it ever occurred to you to rip a CD you own? Maybe even convert to MP3 so you can finally retire your CD Walkman? It's certainly occurred to my 87yo father. I know, because he doesn't own a computer, so I get to do it for him, and if I ever bought a USB turntable, it wouldn't be long before he'd be on my doorstep with a stack of vinyl.

    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    [edit]And let's face it, "backing up" your media is a way to talk about pirating movies, but without getting thrown off the forum for violating copyright rules.

    Yes, that is a provocative statement, but it is also true.
    My 84yo mother still buys DVDs now and then. She handed me two last week, still shrink-wrapped, to put on the media server. Now you've enlightened me as to her motives, I'll have to discuss this piracy thing with her.
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  25. Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Has it ever occurred to you to rip a CD you own? Maybe even convert to MP3 so you can finally retire your CD Walkman?
    I have done that, but even using commercial-grade MP3 encoders that I purchased, and even when using the highest quality settings (very slow!), and despite my 68-year-old ears not being what they used to be (but still pretty good compared to my eyes) the MP3 files sound pretty bad (that tell-tale rasp on a high-hat, as one example).

    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    And let's face it, "backing up" your media is a way to talk about pirating movies, but without getting thrown off the forum for violating copyright rules.
    My 84yo mother still buys DVDs now and then. She handed me two last week, still shrink-wrapped, to put on the media server. Now you've enlightened me as to her motives, I'll have to discuss this piracy thing with her.
    Yes, I get the humor , but I didn't say that EVERYONE who rips DVDs is pirating.

    Most people? Yes.

    All people? No.
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  26. Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    I have done that, but even using commercial-grade MP3 encoders that I purchased, and even when using the highest quality settings (very slow!), and despite my 68-year-old ears not being what they used to be (but still pretty good compared to my eyes) the MP3 files sound pretty bad (that tell-tale rasp on a high-hat, as one example).
    The folks at hydrogen audio seem pretty confident the default LAME VBR preset is transparent. I've only used the LAME encoder myself, so I can't comment on other MP3 encoders, but I remember the varying quality of MP3s back in the early days, so encoders weren't all created equally.
    http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=LAME#Recommended_encoder_settings

    Anyway, as you can imaging there's no way to let fighting words like those go unchallenged, so here's a quick game of "Pick the MP3" if you want to play. The zip file contains two snippets of audio, originally Flac files ripped from CDs, but converted to wave files while adjusting their volumes to Replay Gain levels. There's a copy of each after they were subjected to an MP3 conversion, then back to wave. I used a very high quality MP3 setting, because you chose such fighting words.

    Flac v MP3.zip (21MB)

    The thing that continually baffles me about copy protection, is it really only inconveniences the people who buy legit copies... the customers. If you download an illegal copy you don't need to worry about any of that crap. How have they not learned? I know quite a few people who were regular downloaders but once they had access to legit video without having to bend over and hold their ankles, and could easily watch it on multiple devices.... even share with friends.... they switched to Netflix.
    Last edited by hello_hello; 31st Oct 2020 at 21:56.
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  27. As someone who ran three software companies, back when software was distributed on 5-1/4" floppy disks, I can tell you that I have nothing but disgust for those who rip off intellectual property. I won't help them, I report them when I can, and if I thought I could make them feel guilty, I would try. Unfortunately, guilt requires a moral upbringing, something that has become quite rare the past twenty years.

    So, I'm not interested in taking this any further.
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  28. I've heard a variety of excuses for not wanting to try a simple listening test, but that would easily be the most "unrelated to a listening test" reason for avoiding a listening test I've been offered so far.
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  29. Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    I've heard a variety of excuses for not wanting to try a simple listening test, but that would easily be the most "unrelated to a listening test" reason for avoiding a listening test I've been offered so far.
    It's a pointless exercise because whatever I tell you I hear, you won't have any way to know if I'm really hearing bad stuff, or not. The only way to do such a test is a double-blind option, with a good listening environment, or studio headphones (or both).
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  30. The goal posts seem to have moved a fair distance from "MP3 files sound pretty bad (that tell-tale rasp on a high-hat, as one example)".
    I even picked somewhat sparse samples with easy to hear high-hats at the beginning.
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