H265, rezising, and film grain

[TB54]

Hello everyone,

Having a brand new computer, I'm finally able to handle the long encoding time for h265! It's the occasion for me to store good quality 720p files encoded from blu-rays, for my own film archives.

But i have a problem with grain: i love it, and i encode a lot of old films with it, but it's really too present on the result files.
It's subtle, when i pause the video file it's really beautiful, but the grain is just too present and disturbing in display. Ironically, h264 compression tamed that.

I wonder if it's linked to the grain itself, or just in a way to interpret movement, to choose what must be detailed or not, etc. It seems also linked to the 720p resizing : in the original 1080p file, the grain is as present but smaller, and therefore not so disturbing in an h265 1080p export. I thought it was linked to resizing filters, but Lancloz3 and Bicbubic1 give the same kind of result concerning grain (it just slightly changes the sharpness of the edges of objects/charaters). (i tried that in Virtualdub2, i didn't find a way to choose the rezising filter in handbrake)


For now I have tried two things:

- Virtualdub2. I can only choose a "quality" factor (not a bitrate), "slower", and a profile - but whether i choose "grain" or "none", it doesn't seem to change a lot.

- Handbrake. I choose x265 with two passes (no turbo 1st pass) at 7000 Kb/s, and "slower". With "grain" profile, it shows a little less of it than on Virtualdub2, but still a lot (it still disturbs) ; with "none" profile, that's the opposite: the image losses a lot of its definition/precision in the process.

- Mediaencoder gave me awful results with h264, so i didn't tried it yet for h265, but maybe it's worth it?

I would like to know if there is a solution i can try, and which parameter i must change (because i know nothing in that matter - but i see there is an "advanced option" in handbrake in which we can put code). I'm reluctant to use ffmpeg directly, i really prefer a graphic interface... I know there is also StaxRip (even it seems complicated to me), maybe other freewares, or things i can change inside Virtualdub2 or Handbrake?

Thanks all!

[ProWo]

H.265 Encoder doesn't insert grain by itself. Encode with CRF 25 and preset very fast for 720p. The source quality must be good, of course. Try with my clever Ffmpeg-GUI.

[Selur]

If you want to remove grain:
- don't use the 'grain' option which is meant to preserve grain.
- use the noise reduction option of x265 (or a denoise, degrain filter offered by the application you use).

[TB54]

H.265 Encoder doesn't insert grain by itself.

I was thinking more to how compression interpret it (if it means something? Still a newbie here)

Encode with CRF 25 and preset very fast for 720p. The source quality must be good, of course. Try with my clever Ffmpeg-GUI.

Thanks for the freeware, that's useful! I tried "CRF 25"/"very fast" but the result is really not good enough, compression shows too much. I will try other presets too see how it renders.

use the noise reduction option of x265 (or a denoise, degrain filter offered by the application you use).

I will try that, i see there is one in handbrake... I was reluctant to use a pre-compression denoise filter, because the ones i used years ago had tendencies to create artifacts, but they must have evolved.

[TB54]

- use the noise reduction option of x265 (or a denoise, degrain filter offered by the application you use).

I come back to you, if you have time, about that part: how do you setup the noise reduction option of x265? Is it a line code i can hade in the handbrake advanced window? Does it make sense ot use it with the "grain" profile, to tame it?

I tried the degrain filter of the app mixed with "grain" profile, and it's the best result I get (even if not perfect) for source with heavy film grain (30' movies), but for all the other ones, i am stuck between the two profiles ("none" giving a too smooth result with no texture, and "grain" giving too much grain, the 720p resizing making it more prevalent than in the source; the ideal would be something between those two profiles, but i don't know how to achieve that).

[Selur]

I have 0 clue how Handbrake works and how to use it.

https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cli.html shows what command line option there are.
https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/latest/presets.html#film-grain shows what 'tune grain' does.
https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cli.html?highlight=noise%20reduction#cmdoption-nr-intra shows the noise reduction options I was referring to.

-> Best look at what 'tune grain' does and adjust your settings accordingly.

Cu Selur

[TB54]

In fact there is "Advanced option" window in which i suppose you can add the code you would insert in ffmpeg (but don't know how it mixes with the preset you put above) :



Thanks for the links, I will check that!

[TB54]

Juste in case someone as the same problem as me:

I just read several feedbacks on a forum having the same feeling that "grain" profil adds/accentuates grain of the source if you use "slow" or a slower preset. It seemed weird to me (i thought the fast/slow thing only had an impact of the final filesize), but after some tries it happens to be true: the grain (using a "grain" profile) is more tamed with a medium setting.

Here is the difference (doesn't work on chrome, don't know why):
https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxtapose/latest/embed/index.html?uid=f1c0de90-0e3d-11e...8-a15b6c7adf9a

It's even more obvious with a ultrafast setting:
https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxtapose/latest/embed/index.html?uid=d85f0f16-0e3e-11e...8-a15b6c7adf9a

Still not perfect (the image is a little less sharp, and even if I don't really see it here i wonder if a faster tune doesn't have an impact on quality) so i will still try to see what i can have playing with the possibilities linked in the last message.

[dellsam34]

Having a brand new computer, I'm finally able to handle the long encoding time for h265! It's the occasion for me to store good quality 720p files encoded from blu-rays, for my own film archives.

Why would you resize to 720 a 1080 blu-ray source? Your TV will have to resize the 720 back to 1080 anyway.

[TB54]

For a better quality with a limited filesize.

It was an habit I got when i found my first HD h264 files on the net, because a higher definition (1080p) asked much more bitrate for a good imag e quality, and on most of 1080p i found compression was really showing and ugly. I kept the habit: I watch those film on my computer anyway (well, maybe not forever, but when i tested some of them on my videoprojector, 720p was good enough for me): i prefer the better quality I obtain for the same filesize/bitrate with a smaller resolution.

[Selur]

i thought the fast/slow thing only had an impact of the final filesize

*gig* you might want to read up on what those profiles do to understand them
-> https://x265.readthedocs.io/en/master/presets.html

[TB54]

Not in the newbie forum for nothing

Pity, it was an easy way to achieve the grain balance i needed.