HDPVR2 VCR Recording washed out

[johnmeyer]

Well, you got me intrigued so I connected a composite signal from an NTSC analog source to my Hauppauge PVR 2 1512. I connected the blue cable to the yellow composite cable coming from my source, changed the input from Component to Composite, and much to my surprise, it worked. I guess the cable I ordered may not be needed, although I think it will let me connect to S-Video, which should provide a better result.

I realized I hadn't updated the capture software for at least eighteen months, and because this version has always been a little glitchy, I downloaded their latest capture software. Thankfully, that didn't break anything.

So, the blue cable DOES work.

Having now refreshed my memory on this application, here are a few more ideas.

1. I now remember that this device is really glitchy when changes made are made to the capture setup. You almost always have to quit the application and then restart. For instance, when I changed from component to composite, it didn't work until I did that.

2. Sometimes you need to unplug the PVR2 and then plug it back in, and after doing that, re-start the capture software.

3. For the proc amp settings, I assume you clicked on "Reset to Default," but if not, do that.

[DB83]

It's getting late this side of the pond now so this will be my final contribution tonight.


Just for a 'giggle' I installed Hauppauge Capture software for my USB Live since it is supported. The installation detected I was on PAL but I could have been bloody-minded and chosen something else.


However the software window has all the required settings in full view (left of preview screen) so it is much more easy to change than WinTV.


Of course the software supports many products so you may see something very different to what I do.

[dyhrdmet]

One is dealing with analog sources. Broadcasting standard means NTSC (several variants exist), PAL or Secam.


Now I actually own a Hauppauge USB Live-2 and use the WinTV software if I want to do a quick 'n dirty capture. Now that software certainly has the means to select the broadcast source. I would be amazed if the software you use detects it automatically since with all the other capture software I have used over many years one has to set this manually.

WinTV is a little bit different than the Hauppauge Capture software. Capture is for making recordings while WinTV is more of a TV interface for watching on a PC.
There is no option to change between NTSC and PAL on here. Everything I've seen is that it auto-detects the type of video.

[jagabo]

It looks to me like the video proc amp adjustments are needed. The video has the right chroma but it's way too dark. Or maybe it's the capture devices response to Macrovision (real of false).

[johnmeyer]

There is no option to change between NTSC and PAL on here. Everything I've seen is that it auto-detects the type of video.

I'm pretty sure I saw that option to manually switch between NTSC and PAL, but you have to first uncheck the automatic detection. Unless you have a multi-format VCR, that shouldn't be the problem.

BTW, another thing to look at are the setup menus on your VCR. Some VCRs have various settings to enhance the signal. There are often two of these. One attempts to provide better playback of 6-hour tapes. The other can be some form of TBC. Try changing both of these and see if you get a cleaner signal. As I said in an earlier post, the black text (instead of white) sure looks like a sync signal problem, or a proc amp that is totally maladjusted.

[dyhrdmet]

It looks to me like the video proc amp adjustments are needed. The video has the right chroma but it's way too dark. Or maybe it's the capture devices response to Macrovision (real of false).

I did try adjusting the brightness from 14 to 80 and it looked close, but the white display for the remaining time on the tape and channel number looked pink. When I have this device connected to a different PC, there is no adjustment needed at all.

[johnmeyer]

I did try adjusting the brightness from 14 to 80 and it looked close, but the white display for the remaining time on the tape and channel number looked pink. When I have this device connected to a different PC, there is no adjustment needed at all.

You have said this before and if the source is the same, and you are using the same PVR2, and the cables are the same, and the the software on both PCs is the same software with the same exact revision, then I would look to see if Hauppauge has an "uninstaller" for their software. What I am talking about is NOT the usual uninstall that you do from the Windows Control Panel, but instead is a utility that goes through the registry and removes every last vestige of the old install. What can happen with some software is that when you uninstall it, the settings in the registry don't get purged and if there are bad settings from a previous installation, they propagate into the new installation. I found this for WinTV, but didn't have the time to look to see if they have something similar for the capture app:

https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/support/support_utils.html

[DB83]

Hauppauge did have an de-installer unless I misinterpret what it does. It's called HWClear. That may no longer apply.


As for WinTV it does indeed have a 'tv' interface but it is also capture software. Else how could I use it to capture NTSC tapes under Pal60 which Hauppauge Capture does not support.


I trust you also followed the installation instructions. Especially this bit:


"After installation, you will be asked to reboot your PC. Please reboot.
While rebooting your PC, if you have an HD PVR 2 or HD PVR Pro 60, remove the USB or power plug from the back of the device for a few seconds and then plug it back in. This resets the devices."


You probably do have a different interface. This is what I see:

[dyhrdmet]

I did try adjusting the brightness from 14 to 80 and it looked close, but the white display for the remaining time on the tape and channel number looked pink. When I have this device connected to a different PC, there is no adjustment needed at all.

You have said this before and if the source is the same, and you are using the same PVR2, and the cables are the same, and the the software on both PCs is the same software with the same exact revision, then I would look to see if Hauppauge has an "uninstaller" for their software. What I am talking about is NOT the usual uninstall that you do from the Windows Control Panel, but instead is a utility that goes through the registry and removes every last vestige of the old install. What can happen with some software is that when you uninstall it, the settings in the registry don't get purged and if there are bad settings from a previous installation, they propagate into the new installation. I found this for WinTV, but didn't have the time to look to see if they have something similar for the capture app:

https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/support/support_utils.html

I have used the HCWClear utility often. It does uninstall whatever Hauppauge software is there, and I want to trust that it works properly removing registry settings.

[dyhrdmet]

Hauppauge did have an de-installer unless I misinterpret what it does. It's called HWClear. That may no longer apply.


As for WinTV it does indeed have a 'tv' interface but it is also capture software. Else how could I use it to capture NTSC tapes under Pal60 which Hauppauge Capture does not support.


I trust you also followed the installation instructions. Especially this bit:


"After installation, you will be asked to reboot your PC. Please reboot.
While rebooting your PC, if you have an HD PVR 2 or HD PVR Pro 60, remove the USB or power plug from the back of the device for a few seconds and then plug it back in. This resets the devices."


You probably do have a different interface. This is what I see:

I do use HCWClear. During this adventure, I've used it often. I remember the installer used to prompt me about NTSC vs PAL (at least I'm pretty sure it did), but installing the latest version and a few earlier versions didn't do that. I want to assume the composite cable setting is on NTSC because i never would have used PAL in North America. I do reboot after removing or reinstalling the software. I did remove the power supply and leave it off for a few minutes last night to see if that made a difference - i had been removing it for a second or two previous, especially when moving the connection from one computer to the other (as i kept wanting to make sure it still worked on the laptop).

The screenshot you provided is pretty accurate as far as the interface goes until I look closer - I don't have the dropdown for "Standard" or "Aspect" after selecting Composite (or Component).

[Attachment 54992 - Click to enlarge]

[DB83]

I see some additional elements and, yes, I do see less.


Now the next comment should not be relevant since you already stated you can use it for other feeds and a different PC (Laptop) but I noticed that your HD PVR2 says "Gaming Edition". Maybe johnmeyer can actually confirm that his hardware really is identical since Hauppauge have released many similar products.


And why would you capture at 60 fps. Analogue video is really captured at 29.97 fps for NTSC. Yet again without having such a unit I can not comment that such a setting is sustainable (which could be why your laptop can not keep up)

[dyhrdmet]

And why would you capture at 60 fps. Analogue video is really captured at 29.97 fps for NTSC. Yet again without having such a unit I can not comment that such a setting is sustainable (which could be why your laptop can not keep up)

not sure why it's 60 fps and not 29.97 fps. i don't get to control that at all. i did play with the video scaler but that didn't do anything to the actual picture.

[johnmeyer]

I have the 157320 version (there are at least three). As I said in an earlier post, I had success capturing composite video via the blue cable when I used a really old version of the software (from at least 18 months ago), as well as using the latest software.

I am out of ideas.

[usually_quiet]

And why would you capture at 60 fps. Analogue video is really captured at 29.97 fps for NTSC. Yet again without having such a unit I can not comment that such a setting is sustainable (which could be why your laptop can not keep up)

not sure why it's 60 fps and not 29.97 fps. i don't get to control that at all. i did play with the video scaler but that didn't do anything to the actual picture.

Composite video is always interlaced. I don't know for sure what Hauppauge Capture does but some software counts the number of fields per second for interlaced video instead of the number of frames per second and rounds 59.94 to 60. Perhaps the logic is that when de-interlaced by a TV, each of the fields in composite video becomes a frame and round numbers like 60 are more comprehensible to most of those who use the software.

[DB83]

I am out of ideas.

You are not alone.


But just a quick Q. if you do not mind. Was your sample capture at 29.97 or at 30 fps assuming, of course, that progs like mediainfo can give an accurate report and not an assumptive one.

[DB83]

And why would you capture at 60 fps. Analogue video is really captured at 29.97 fps for NTSC. Yet again without having such a unit I can not comment that such a setting is sustainable (which could be why your laptop can not keep up)

not sure why it's 60 fps and not 29.97 fps. i don't get to control that at all. i did play with the video scaler but that didn't do anything to the actual picture.

Seems to me there are a lot of things one can not control. You will see that I have asked johnmeyer to confirm the actual recording spec (another thing that one could have gleaned from an actual video example). But since this unit is focused on gaming that may well be so.

[johnmeyer]

But just a quick Q. if you do not mind. Was your sample capture at 29.97 or at 30 fps assuming, of course, that progs like mediainfo can give an accurate report and not an assumptive one.

Here's the Mediainfo report on the short clip I captured yesterday. As I expected, it reports the normal 29.97 fps. I would have been amazed if it showed 30 fps. Hauppauge is a competent company and they wouldn't make such a rookie mistake.

I have also uploaded this clip so you can look at it and examine it for yourself. I apologize because I just looked at this using separatefields() and it is telecined, so there is no temporal difference between fields, but it does exhibit 3:2 pulldown which can only be there if the video is indeed interlaced, my point being that despite my lousy choice of a clip (I was just on some random OTA low-power station) all I was doing was trying to make sure the capture worked.

[edit]This site's flaky upload (I can never get pictures to upload) failed to upload my clip. So, here is a link to Mediafire where you can get the tiny (3MB) file:

PVR2 Composite NTSC 29.97 clip

General
ID                               : 0 (0x0)
Complete name                    : \\Thinkpad-t430\Users\John\Videos\HDPVR2_20200921_1601.ts
Format                           : MPEG-TS
File size                        : 3.68 MiB
Duration                         : 3s 290ms
Overall bit rate                 : 9 146 Kbps
Maximum Overall bit rate         : 5 000 Kbps

Video
ID                               : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
Format                           : AVC
Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                   : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC           : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames        : 3 frames
Codec ID                         : 27
Duration                         : 3s 303ms
Bit rate                         : 8 500 Kbps
Width                            : 720 pixels
Height                           : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio             : 4:3
Frame rate                       : 29.970 fps
Standard                         : NTSC
Color space                      : YUV
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Scan type                        : Interlaced
Scan order                       : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.821
Stream size                      : 3.35 MiB (91%)
Color primaries                  : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M
Transfer characteristics         : BT.601-6 525, BT.601-6 625, BT.1358 525, BT.1358 625, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M
Matrix coefficients              : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M

Audio
ID                               : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
Format                           : MPEG Audio
Format version                   : Version 1
Format profile                   : Layer 2
Codec ID                         : 3
Duration                         : 3s 312ms
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 192 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode                 : Lossy
Delay relative to video          : -49ms
Stream size                      : 77.6 KiB (2%)

[DB83]

Thanks for that John.


I did a quick sample of my own using the USB-Live2. Again mediainfo reported 25 fps and the only material difference to your own sample was that the video is mpeg2.ts

[dyhrdmet]

So I decided to re-install Windows 10, thinking that maybe there was a driver or software conflict causing this. Still have the same problem. While it's possible that something in a more recent Windows update could be causing this, and the way Windows lets you make an installer flash drive using Windows Update means that it could be a factor, I am moving my attention to something that someone said in one of the forums - electrical interference.

I am going to start moving various hardware away (shredder, scanner, tabletop standing desk, etc) from my PC. But one question along those lines - could the internals of my PC (i.e. fans, cables, etc) be causing this? I do have about 4 or 5 CPU fans hooked up because of overheating problems that were resolved by adding a new heat (and rather large) sink fan.

[johnmeyer]

I think you are off in the weeds if you are chasing electrical interference inside your computer. Why? Because the video is converted from analog to digital inside the PVR2! The video enters your PC as a digital stream via the USB connector. Electrical noise in your PC is not going to cause white text in a digital video stream to turn black.

No, the problem is in how PVR2 is being configured by the Hauppague capture software in your faulty PC. If the PVR2 works perfectly when attached to a different PC, and then all you do is disconnect the PVR2's USB cable from one PC, connect it to another PC, and then capture the same source, then the faulty PC must be sending some setup instructions to the PVR2 that cause it to be configured differently.

Again, just for emphasis, the A/D (analog to digital) conversion takes place outside of the PC.

[DB83]

Hardly.


Interference would, in my understanding, be external. Badly shielded cables or something directly interfering with the capture device (something else plugged in ?) or your general power supply to the unit. Do you move that when you do a PC capture as opposed to a laptop or tv-box capture ?


PC internal interference would effect your general abilty for a clear desktop etc. and you would have already have noticed that.

[DB83]

There is one thing that intrigues me when I run Hauppauge Capture.


The USB Live is plugged in but before I see any live picture from the analogue source I get a configuration screen in the centre of the preview display that reads "Hauppauge Capture is trying to access your webcam"


There is only one minor problem with that.


I do not have a webcam


Now I do have an older PCI-based Hauppauge win-tv card installed but it is not even, in any way, linked to Win7 . I do wonder if the installation scans for hardware and installs its drivers accordingly. Could there be a hardware conflict which would go a long way to explain it working on one PC/Laptop but not the other.

[DB83]

Two more observations after looking at the manual.


1. If indeed the unit has internally converted to 60 fps it can be reduced to 30 fps in the Video Scaler section


more, possibly, critical


2. Have you tried toggling the "Use Hardware Acceleration" (Graphics Card) button in general settings ?

[dyhrdmet]

No, the problem is in how PVR2 is being configured by the Hauppague capture software in your faulty PC. If the PVR2 works perfectly when attached to a different PC, and then all you do is disconnect the PVR2's USB cable from one PC, connect it to another PC, and then capture the same source, then the faulty PC must be sending some setup instructions to the PVR2 that cause it to be configured differently.

So what's faulty inside the PC? Is it the graphics card (I'm not married to it, but I'm also not interested in having to purchase a new one). I re-installed Windows today, WiFi turned off (so Windows Update can't find all the current drivers for everything) and re-installed Hauppauge Capture. Same results that I've been seeing. I also re-verified the other connections (composite to my laptop and component to my "faulty" PC) and they work properly. I've tried stripping various hardware (other hard drives, printer, etc.) as well as moving everything that I could away from my physical workspace.

[dyhrdmet]

Hardly.


Interference would, in my understanding, be external. Badly shielded cables or something directly interfering with the capture device (something else plugged in ?) or your general power supply to the unit. Do you move that when you do a PC capture as opposed to a laptop or tv-box capture ?


PC internal interference would effect your general abilty for a clear desktop etc. and you would have already have noticed that.

Capture device is plugged into the same surge protector as the PC and its monitor. VCR, cable box, and other related items are plugged into a different surge protector. Laptop is plugged into yet another one. I could try moving the Capture device's power to a different outlet. Cables themselves look good. No signs of wear & tear (or worse). When I "move" the Capture device from my PC to my laptop, I don't have to physically move it, just moving the USB cable from one device to another. I do have to reach to the back of the Capture device to disconnect and reconnect the power for the "new" computer to recognize it (basically resetting the device when it's connected to something new).

[dyhrdmet]

1. If indeed the unit has internally converted to 60 fps it can be reduced to 30 fps in the Video Scaler section

I did try different settings in the Video scaler. Everything I did wanted to convert 720x480i to 720x480 at 60 fps (no matter what I selected). Nothing changed the actual picture available to watch/record.

2. Have you tried toggling the "Use Hardware Acceleration" (Graphics Card) button in general settings ?

I could not find hardware acceleration as an option on my graphics card. right now, my PC doesn't have that software (after re-installing and not adding any drivers).

[johnmeyer]

The hardware in the PC is not the problem. The hardware in the PC is not the problem. The hardware in the PC is not the problem. The hardware in the PC is not the problem.

So forget about the graphics card, shielding in the computer etc. I've already said this several times, so I won't annoy people by posting it again.

Something is telling your external device (the Hauppauge PVR2) to digitize the video incorrectly. It then passes that video, via USB, into your computer. The USB cannot corrupt video in the manner you show.

One other test would be to find a third computer and install the software there.

Also, I think you mentioned something about Windows 10 on the faulty computer, and if the two versions of Windows are not the same, there could be some sort of driver issue that is specific to some version of Windows.

I didn't mention it, but I did my tests on a Windows 7 computer (I don't have Win 8 or 10 because they are evil).

You could also try some alternative capture software, although as I remember when I initially got my PVR2 3-4 years ago, when I looked at these other programs, they actually used the same underlying drivers.

Since I suspect drivers, you might see if you can figure out the version numbers for the drivers on each machine. You could go to Device Manager (found in the Control Panel), find the PVR2 device, right click, and inspect everything you find. Repeat for the other computer and see if you detect any differences.

[dyhrdmet]

Something is telling your external device (the Hauppauge PVR2) to digitize the video incorrectly. It then passes that video, via USB, into your computer. The USB cannot corrupt video in the manner you show.

One other test would be to find a third computer and install the software there.

Also, I think you mentioned something about Windows 10 on the faulty computer, and if the two versions of Windows are not the same, there could be some sort of driver issue that is specific to some version of Windows.

I didn't mention it, but I did my tests on a Windows 7 computer (I don't have Win 8 or 10 because they are evil).

You could also try some alternative capture software, although as I remember when I initially got my PVR2 3-4 years ago, when I looked at these other programs, they actually used the same underlying drivers.

Since I suspect drivers, you might see if you can figure out the version numbers for the drivers on each machine. You could go to Device Manager (found in the Control Panel), find the PVR2 device, right click, and inspect everything you find. Repeat for the other computer and see if you detect any differences.

When you say "Something is telling your external device", do you mean drivers or software on the computer? Or hardware/firmware the Hauppauge PVR2? It sounds like drivers, which was my original thought.

Unfortunately I don't have access to a 3rd computer to test with.

Laptop - Microsoft Windows Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.508), Windows 10 Home
PC - Microsoft Windows Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.450), Windows 10 Home -- FRESH INSTALL, NO WINDOWS UPDATES (as of this evening)

Is there anything in particular that I'm looking for with those drivers?

Laptop - Hauppauge Capture 1.2.38259; Driver Date: 4/29/2019; Driver Version: 1.6.37119.0
PC - Hauppauge Capture 1.2.38259; Driver Date: 4/29/2019; Driver Version: 1.6.37119.0

[DB83]

1. If indeed the unit has internally converted to 60 fps it can be reduced to 30 fps in the Video Scaler section

I did try different settings in the Video scaler. Everything I did wanted to convert 720x480i to 720x480 at 60 fps (no matter what I selected). Nothing changed the actual picture available to watch/record.

2. Have you tried toggling the "Use Hardware Acceleration" (Graphics Card) button in general settings ?

I could not find hardware acceleration as an option on my graphics card. right now, my PC doesn't have that software (after re-installing and not adding any drivers).

The hardware acceleration 'toggle' is in the Hauppauge settings not the actual GPU.


But is your Windows install actually new or just a restore of what was saved to external media ? The latter will have any potential conflicts that were previously there.


I see no reaction to my comment about Hauppauge Capture wanting to access my non-existent webcam. But if your Windows is now 'clean' ie no drivers etc. for any other external equipment I really would try a fresh install of Hauppauge Capture as well.

[dyhrdmet]

The hardware acceleration 'toggle' is in the Hauppauge settings not the actual GPU.

Ah. that. Yes, I did toggle that. No luck

But is your Windows install actually new or just a restore of what was saved to external media ? The latter will have any potential conflicts that were previously there.

I used the Windows Media Creation tool with a USB drive and then I went as far as doing Reset PC. I was hoping to be able to format the C drive and re-install windows from scratch, and that's the closest I got, but maybe I still need to take that extra step.

I see no reaction to my comment about Hauppauge Capture wanting to access my non-existent webcam. But if your Windows is now 'clean' ie no drivers etc. for any other external equipment I really would try a fresh install of Hauppauge Capture as well.

On my PC, I do not have a webcam or a microphone. I have not seen any issues with it trying to access my webcam. One interesting thing is that on my laptop, it wants access to the microphone (for no apparent reason), but on the PC, where there is no microphone, it doesn't care. The software itself does have a feature which uses a microphone, but I'm not trying to use it.

With my "reset" PC, I did a fresh install of Hauppauge Capture and it still has the bad picture. I don't know if I need to go as far as actually reformatting the harddrive (outside of what "Reset PC" does) and re-installing. I'd have to do a little bit of work to take one of my additional drives and make it available to do that.