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  1. The Most Perplexing Problem in the History of the Universe, or Video


    Background

    With some assistance of master contributors to this site, I have learned quite a bit about VHS capture, proc amps, color spaces, editing software and more. And to the intended ends, I now have good VHS captures, good editing in Adobe Premier Elements, and easy transfer of the finalized videos (in the standard Video_TS folder) ---- first to a desktop folder, then in turn to a DVD. My videos, AS VIEWED ON THE PC MONITOR, look good, and essentially identical, whether viewed through Premier Elements, Windows Media Player or VLC Media Player.

    Then I copy my finalized video project (Video_TS folder) either to a USB thumb drive or burn to a physical disc DVD. PLAYED THROUGH MY COMPUTER AND MONITOR, the video appears the same as when played from the digital file on my computer hard drive. Very Good.

    The Problem

    My next step is to view the (any such) video on my livingroom Sony TV. To this end, I can either (1) play a DVD through my OPPO universal disc player or (2) play the USB thumb drive by attaching it to either (i) the disc player, (ii) my A/V receiver, or (iii) directly into my TV. When I do so, my videos are WAY, WAY, too bright, too-high gamma and undersaturated. Terrible. (Since my purpose has been toward transferring (and fixing) old family VHS videos to DVD and distributing these to surviving family members, it seems that unless I can solve this problem the memories die with me.)

    A Few Important Facts

    1) Although I am new to video, I have used (the full version of ) Photoshop for years. Accordingly, I calibrate my computer monitor regularly. I calibrate to 6500 color temp and maintain good accuracy of brightness, contrast and color.

    2) Although I do not calibrate my Sony TV, I have a good eye and believe it displays reasonably accurately (more on this below).

    3) When I play a Hollywood DVD or BluRay on my TV, the brightness, color and saturation are all very good. When I play that same Hollywood DVD or BluRay in my computer drive and view it on the computer monitor, the image is a bit dark and too saturated.

    4) My VHS capture software is “PotPlayer” (it’s quite powerful with zillions of options way beyond the understanding of most). I tried VirtualDub seemingly to no end, but could not obtain a video/audio sync ---- and I tried everything recommended by the gurus.

    5) I have two USB capture devices: Hauppauge Live-2 and a (good) Chinese product. The captures are of equally good quality, though the proc amps are quite different. Untouched, captures without proc adjustments in both would have been WAY too dark and saturated. Each of the device proc amps needed big adjustments to obtain VHS captures that were about 90% satisfactory; final adjustments to be made in the video editing software.

    Search of this Website

    A search of this site for help in solving the “good picture on computer monitor but way too bright and undersaturated on TV set” turned up a few posts (most a decade old or older).

    Some of the comments involved the YUV vs. RGB color spaces, and few others noted the full PC standard of RGB 0-255 vs. TV standard of RGB 16-235. I thus tried capturing under different input and output standards. It did not help: TV way too bright and undersaturated.

    Several of the commentators on this site boiled that matter down to the simple fact that TVs are different from computer monitors. The recommendation was to finalize video color and brightness corrections using a TV rather than a computer monitor.

    My Next Step: Try Viewing and Editing Using a TV

    My TV, in the livingroom, fortunately has multiple HDMI inputs, matching one of the outputs on my computer. I connected the computer to my Sony TV. (Both my computer monitor and TV are 1080p capable.) Sure enough, the computer booted and the view on the TV was very good with correct colors ---- just a bit less sharp than the computer monitor, possible due, I’d guess, to the far larger screen on the TV.

    I had a couple of completed videos on the computer hard drive that were earlier “burned” to Video_TS folders, which I was able to play through Windows Media Player or VLC Media Player. I also had the completed project in Premier Elements format, playable in that program.

    Using the two media players I opened the Video_TS video. It was excellent ---- almost exactly as when played on my computer monitor! I could barely believe it, thinking beforehand that it would be way too bright and undersaturated. Furthermore, I inserted the USB thumb drive into the computer (not the TV or A/V receiver) and the video was the same ---- i.e., very good. I could not (and still cannot) figure out what was happening.

    Summary

    ---- I play the completed Premier Elements project file through Premier Elements on my computer and computer monitor ---- the video looks good.

    ---- I play a video (DVD standard Video_TS folder) through my computer and computer monitor; using Windows Media Player or VLC Media Player ---- the video looks good.

    ---- I connect my computer to the TV; using Windows Media Player or VLC Media Player ---- the video looks good.

    ---- I copy the same Video_TS folder to a USB thumb drive and connect the thumb drive to the TV, to the A/V receiver, or to the Oppo disc player (which has a USB input), OR I burn a DVD disc and play it through the Oppo disc player, which is connected to the TV ---- video is WAY too bright and undersaturated.

    Any Help?

    I have tried to describe this perplexing situation in as much detail as possible (could ya tell?). Can anyone offer an explanation for the WAY too bright video when played on a TV via USB thumb drive or DVD disc? And better still: a solution.

    Thank you.
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  2. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    3) When I play a Hollywood DVD or BluRay on my TV, the brightness, color and saturation are all very good. When I play that same Hollywood DVD or BluRay in my computer drive and view it on the computer monitor, the image is a bit dark and too saturated.
    The finished home DVD is too bright, undersaturated on a regular TV setup; But a retail DVD/BD is too dark, too saturated on the computer, is that correct ?

    This suggests likely your computer display, GPU, or some combination is not set up correctly - that is leading you to make the wrong adjustments . What you wrongly see is too dark, too saturated on your computer setup - so you are overcompensating by actually making it too bright and desaturating it.

    Ideally you should use a calibrated display setup, but even a roughly calibrated is probably good enough. You should also use scopes such as a waveform monitor, vectorscope to guide your manipulations. There are free ones in editors like shotcut. Avisynth has some too

    If you want someone to double check your DVD , you can post a video sample and someone will provide feedback


    There are many guides threads on this forum and others on how to properly setup a computer monitor and GPU. If you get stuck, ask
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  3. Thank you, poisondeathray, your suggestion was my first thought as well. And that would be an easy fix as I could calibrate/adjust my computer monitor to a brighter value.

    But here is what leads me to believe that that may not be the problem:

    1) When I copy my newly made video project (Video_TS folder) to a USB thumb drive or burn it to DVD, then play the thumb drive or DVD on the TV (either direct input or through the A/V receiver or the disc player, the video is WAY too bright and undersaturated.

    By contrast ----

    2) If I drag over my computer (less monitor) and connect it to an HDMI input on my TV, then play my newly made video project ---- from the computer into the TV ---- using either Windows Media Player or VLC Media Player on the computer hard drive, the video is very good. It is not overly bright and washed-out. The video looks about that same as when viewed on my computer monitor, i.e., very good.

    Taking both #1 and #2 above into account it would suggest, would it not, that my computer monitor is calibrated more or less correctly? If the computer is used to play the videos, whether connected to the computer monitor or to the TV, they look the same ---- good. Only when the video is copied to thumb drive or DVD and then played on the TV (no computer involved) is the video WAY too bright and washed out. Were it so that my computer monitor is set too dark, then when the computer was connected to the TV the video should as well be too dark, should it not?

    Unless perhaps ----

    Unless, perhaps (and this is a beyond my knowledge), this situation involves the “video LUTS” inside the graphical unit of the computer ---- which somehow keeps all the gremlins in line ---- but which is out-of-the loop when a thumb drive or DVD is connected directly to the TV (i.e., w/o computer).

    Any thoughts?

    Thank you.
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  4. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Were it so that my computer monitor is set too dark, then when the computer was connected to the TV the video should as well be too dark, should it not?
    Not necessarily, because of your graphics card HDMI out settings. Is it set to PC or TV levels ? If it looks "correct", then probably "TV" levels

    Your DVD is an unknown factor. You should use something known, like test videos.

    Or use check the actual levels using a waveform, and check the actual saturation using a vectorscope.

    "washed out" implies elevated black level, low contrast. Saturation can appear low as well. But this is not necessarily the same thing as "too bright".

    That implies a PC 0-255 vs. TV 16-235 levels mismatch somewhere. I suspect your computer display setup or graphics card

    A retail DVD/BD is highly unlikely to have the incorrect levels
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  5. . . . I forgot to mention, or ask, one thing:

    It seems that most of the old posts about video viewed on a TV being much brighter than on a computer monitor seem to focus on TVs “being that way.” The general advice is that if video is intended to be viewed on a TV, then use a TV to create the video.

    My experience is that so long as I am playing the video off the computer hard drive ---- whether through the computer monitor or the TV ---- it looks good. But when I “decouple” the computer from the loop (by playing the Video_TS folder on a DVD or thumb drive directly to the TV), it’s WAY too bright and washed out.

    So in contrast to some of the old posts regarding similar matters, what I am experiencing seems to exonerate the TV as the problem, does it not?

    I use a “Datacolor Spyder3 Elite” to calibrate my computer monitor (for working on still images in Photoshop). I believe my COLOR calibration is spot on; however, brightness and contrast settings are established by the colorimeter’s secondary function of ascertaining the lighting level in the room. Maybe I should force the colorimeter to “see” a brighter room, which in turn will recommend a brighter monitor calibration. In light of the "video as viewed on computer monitor vs. TV” problem I am experiencing (no pun intended), a ten-minute monitor re-calibration is worth a try.

    Perhaps there are further suggestions,

    Thank you.
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  6. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    I use a “Datacolor Spyder3 Elite” to calibrate my computer monitor (for working on still images in Photoshop). I believe my COLOR calibration is spot on;
    That has nothing to do with video calibration. Video uses a subsystem with separate calibration settings. Look at your graphics card's setup applet and check the settings in the "video" or "media" settings. That section contains all the Auto controls (contrast, color, skin tone, noise reduction, etc.) which do nothing but ruin the picture (all the manual controls are there too -- those are the ones you should be looking at). And they are often on by default.
    Last edited by jagabo; 12th Sep 2020 at 22:15.
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  7. Go over to the avsforum and search for 'HD 709'. You'll find an article and a number of downloads aimed at helping to calibrate your TVs etc. Obviously not as good as a proper calibration system but definitely better than the THX calbration section on many Lucasfilm discs.
    "Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
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  8. Thank you, TimA-C:

    Yes, my Sony TV is “semi-calibrated”. By that I mean the following:

    My OPPO disc player came with a TV calibration disc. Using the data, charts and graphs from that disc, one is able to calibrate/optimize the disc player and the TV. Granted, this is likely not quite as accurate as using a colorimeter and its accompanying software such as I use on my computer monitor for work in (the full version of) Photoshop, but it’s pretty good.

    Related, as you read in the posts immediately above, I (and perhaps Mr. Poisondeathray, we’ll have to wait for his comments), am leaning toward exonerating my TV as the root of the problem discussed above. My newly VHS-captured and edited video looks good on both my computer monitor and my TV, so long as the input is my computer. It is when I copy the video (Video_TS folder) to a thumb drive or burn a DVD and play the thumb drive or DVD directly to my TV or A/V receiver (i.e., without the computer) that my video is way too bright and washed-out.

    This situation is most perplexing, though, if I read his comments correctly, poisondeathray suggests that my computer monitor may be set too dark. He did not go into detail, but I infer that he recommends recalibrating my computer monitor to a brighter value. For example, the room light sensor function on my colorimeter usually suggests I set the monitor’s luminance at 120cd/m2. And that is how it is now set. But there are times (when the room is more brightly lit) when the recommended luminance is 180cs/m2 (which is very bright). I am guessing that poisondeathray would suggest that I recalibrate my computer monitor to a luminance of 180cs/m2, then re-edit my video using that setting. (Poisondeathray did not state that specifically; I am making an inference from his actual comments). In any event, I shall give it a try: (i) recalibrate my computer monitor to a luminance of 180cs/m2, (ii) re-edit my video, (iii) test the re-edited video on my TV.

    I hope others will comment and provide further insight as to the problem I am experiencing and possible solutions.

    Thank you.
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    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Thank you, TimA-C:

    Yes, my Sony TV is “semi-calibrated”. By that I mean the following:

    My OPPO disc player came with a TV calibration disc. Using the data, charts and graphs from that disc, one is able to calibrate/optimize the disc player and the TV. Granted, this is likely not quite as accurate as using a colorimeter and its accompanying software such as I use on my computer monitor for work in (the full version of) Photoshop, but it’s pretty good.

    Related, as you read in the posts immediately above, I (and perhaps Mr. Poisondeathray, we’ll have to wait for his comments), am leaning toward exonerating my TV as the root of the problem discussed above. My newly VHS-captured and edited video looks good on both my computer monitor and my TV, so long as the input is my computer. It is when I copy the video (Video_TS folder) to a thumb drive or burn a DVD and play the thumb drive or DVD directly to my TV or A/V receiver (i.e., without the computer) that my video is way too bright and washed-out.

    This situation is most perplexing, though, if I read his comments correctly, poisondeathray suggests that my computer monitor may be set too dark. He did not go into detail, but I infer that he recommends recalibrating my computer monitor to a brighter value. For example, the room light sensor function on my colorimeter usually suggests I set the monitor’s luminance at 120cd/m2. And that is how it is now set. But there are times (when the room is more brightly lit) when the recommended luminance is 180cs/m2 (which is very bright). I am guessing that poisondeathray would suggest that I recalibrate my computer monitor to a luminance of 180cs/m2, then re-edit my video using that setting. (Poisondeathray did not state that specifically; I am making an inference from his actual comments). In any event, I shall give it a try: (i) recalibrate my computer monitor to a luminance of 180cs/m2, (ii) re-edit my video, (iii) test the re-edited video on my TV.

    I hope others will comment and provide further insight as to the problem I am experiencing and possible solutions.

    Thank you.
    on your computer monitor, have you tried doing a factory reset ??
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  10. [QUOTE=october262;2594084]
    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    on your computer monitor, have you tried doing a factory reset ??

    Not in the last week. However, I sometimes do a factory reset of the computer monitor just prior to doing a full calibration using the colorimeter and calibration software.

    Based on the situation I am currently experiencing with respect to video when played on the on the TV, I intend to recalibrate the computer monitor, setting the luminance value to 180cd/m2.

    Thank you.
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    [QUOTE=Avagadro1;2594087]
    Originally Posted by october262 View Post
    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post

    on your computer monitor, have you tried doing a factory reset ??

    Not in the last week. However, I sometimes do a factory reset of the computer monitor just prior to doing a full calibration using the colorimeter and calibration software.

    Based on the situation I am currently experiencing with respect to video when played on the on the TV, I intend to recalibrate the computer monitor, setting the luminance value to 180cd/m2.

    Thank you.
    might also try connecting your computer to your TV and do another capture, and then
    put the files on your flash drive / disc and see how that turns out. don't use a file
    that's already been done, start a new capture.
    Last edited by october262; 3rd Sep 2020 at 14:43.
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  12. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    I have tried to describe this perplexing situation in as much detail as possible (could ya tell?). Can anyone offer an explanation for the WAY too bright video when played on a TV via USB thumb drive or DVD disc? And better still: a solution.
    Thank you.
    This may not be your issue, but I've experienced a similar washed out look when viewing video with the wrong video player. The cause of the issue was I was viewing an HDR10 video file on an SDR screen, without the appropriate filter compensation. I've attached an image showing the difference, left is washed out HDR10, vs SDR. If this looks similar to your video then it might be the answer.

    Image
    [Attachment 54789 - Click to enlarge]


    Edit: Re-reading your post it seems increasingly likely that this is your issue, when you said it looks find playing through hdmi. Hooking up your TV to the computer and decoding through VLC player is probably transcoding HDR10 to SDR on the fly for your TV. The TV itself may not have the capability to do this. Check whether your encode is HDR, and whether your TV supports HDR. If not you may have to: reencode, use a computer to hdmi to TV, or transcode using a service like Plex, Kodi , etc.
    Last edited by ForDexterity; 6th Sep 2020 at 13:58.
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  13. ForDexterity:

    Thank you quite much for your reply and assistance.

    If I'm not mistaken, "HDR10" refers to newer televisions that have a greater dynamic range (brightness and color) than the preceding generation of TVs. I will look into that, but off hand I'd guess that it is not the issue I am experiencing since my TV, while still very good, is a thirteen- or fifteen-year old Sony ---- well before HDR10 came to market.

    Thus far I have observed that the too-light and undersaturated video as viewed on my TV (but very good on the computer monitor) occurs only when the video is played from DVD disc or from a thumb drive attached to my DVD player. That is, if I connect my computer directly to the TV, my video played from the computer looks very good, similar to when the computer is used to drive the computer monitor.

    I was thinking that perhaps I captured in the wrong colorspace. A couple of the masters of this help website recommend always capturing VHS tape in YUY2, though my Adobe Premier Elements will automatically convert that to RGB. I can also capture as RGB, avoiding that conversion --- but why? My problem is not crushed blacks and whites, but overall too bright, undersaturatured picture on the TV, so I did not go down the road of capturing VHS in different colorspaces (maybe I should).

    Since my DVD/Bluray player is attached to the TV via HDMI, one thought was that the HDMI parameters were amiss. However, if I connect the computer directly to the TV via HDMI and play the video from the computer hard drive (rather than DVD or thumb drive input), the picture on the TV is good.

    Tomorrow I will be experimenting further, including a couple of the suggestions provided earlier in this thread (see above).

    In the meantime, thank you again for your assistance.
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  14. I just mean if the file you captured or encoded is in HDR, then upon playback with an older tv it will not be able to interpret the color data and look washed out. Playing through VLC corrects this by transcoding to SDR before it reaches your TV for displaying.

    If you used Premiere to export your file there's a high chance an "HQ" export included HDR10 data. Anyway, open your file in MediaInfo to check.

    Regards.
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  15. ForDexterity:

    Thank you for the information. I was not previously aware of the “MediaInfo” program. I found and installed it. Very interesting. But in light of the problem I am experiencing (as described above), I’m not sure of what I should be looking for.

    Recall that I am capturing from VHS tape. Below is a copy-and-paste of the MediaInfo report for one of my video captures (I did not include the audio analysis). Does anything jump out at you as very wrong?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    GENERAL
    Complete name : C:\Users\HSA\Videos\LOU
    Format : AVI
    Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
    Format profile : OpenDML
    File size : 2.70 GiB
    Duration : 42 min 4 s
    Overall bit rate : 9 188 kb/s
    Movie name : device
    Writing application : Lavf58.49.100

    VIDEO
    ID : 0
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : High@L3.2
    Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
    Format settings, CABAC : Yes
    Format settings, Reference frames : 3 frames
    Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=29
    Codec ID : H264
    Duration : 42 min 4 s
    Bit rate : 8 981 kb/s
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 3:2
    Frame rate mode : Variable
    Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
    Standard : NTSC
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.867
    Stream size : 2.64 GiB (98%)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I’ve not seen such an analysis before. Only a few items struck me:

    1) I am capturing VHS video. Based on what I read on this help site, I set the capture software to capture as YUY2, 4:2:2 (or at least I thought I did). As you can see, the analysis says that my video file is YUV, 4:2:0. Did I do something wrong? Could this be the source of the problem described in my original post (video good on computer monitor but way too light and undersaturaterd on TV)?

    2) I assumed I was capturing Interlaced video. As you can see, the analysis says “Progressive”.
    Did I do something wrong? It would appear that I had the Progressive/Interlaced capture choices set incorrectly. In light of my capturing VHS video for viewing on either a computer monitor or television, should I recapture again ---- being sure it is Interlaced? Could that be the source of the problem described in my original post (video good on computer monitor but way too light and undersaturaterd on TV)?

    3) You advised me to look for some indication that I captured as HDR10 (which would be an error in my case). Do you see anything suspicions in the above data?

    Thank you for your help.
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    Why don't you post a sample of one of the videos that look too bright?
    Either from the USB or DVD ?

    I assume commercial DVD's and other files look good on the TV, only your captures are "too bright"?
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  17. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post



    1) I am capturing VHS video. Based on what I read on this help site, I set the capture software to capture as YUY2, 4:2:2 (or at least I thought I did). As you can see, the analysis says that my video file is YUV, 4:2:0. Did I do something wrong? Could this be the source of the problem described in my original post (video good on computer monitor but way too light and undersaturaterd on TV)?
    No. 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 only deals with chroma subsampling. Completely unrelated to your problem

    And you can set it to 4:2:2 if you were using x264vfw


    2) I assumed I was capturing Interlaced video. As you can see, the analysis says “Progressive”.
    Did I do something wrong? It would appear that I had the Progressive/Interlaced capture choices set incorrectly. In light of my capturing VHS video for viewing on either a computer monitor or television, should I recapture again ---- being sure it is Interlaced? Could that be the source of the problem described in my original post (video good on computer monitor but way too light and undersaturaterd on TV)?
    No. Unrelated to your problem.

    And you can set --tff or --bff (for top field first, or bottom field first) in the extra commandline box if using x264vfw

    Also you can set the aspect ratio with SAR in the x264vfw GUI

    3) You advised me to look for some indication that I captured as HDR10 (which would be an error in my case). Do you see anything suspicions in the above data?
    HDR is unrelated to what you are doing
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  18. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    I’m not sure of what I should be looking for.
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I’ve not seen such an analysis before. Only a few items struck me:

    1) I am capturing VHS video. Based on what I read on this help site, I set the capture software to capture as YUY2, 4:2:2 (or at least I thought I did). As you can see, the analysis says that my video file is YUV, 4:2:0. Did I do something wrong?

    2) I assumed I was capturing Interlaced video. As you can see, the analysis says “Progressive”.
    Did I do something wrong? It would appear that I had the Progressive/Interlaced capture choices set incorrectly. In light of my capturing VHS video for viewing on either a computer monitor or television, should I recapture again ---- being sure it is Interlaced? Could that be the source of the problem described in my original post (video good on computer monitor but way too light and undersaturaterd on TV)?

    3) You advised me to look for some indication that I captured as HDR10 (which would be an error in my case). Do you see anything suspicions in the above data?
    1. If you're running your direct captures through premiere you need to be very meticulous about project settings and export settings. Perhaps you exported as Progressive - like 480p?

    2. Interlacing won't cause your color problem, but it wouldn't hurt to recapture to learn more.

    3. If the video were HDR10 I believe it would say Bit depth: 10 bits. So this may be ruled out.

    My suggestion is if you have access to a newer TV to play the videos on there, if the problem persists, its probably the encoding not the TV.
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  19. ForDexterity, this is a followup.

    I just did some further checking. Since my end goal is to burn my post-editing videos to DVD, the knowledgeable recommendations say to capture VHS as INTERLACED.

    It appears that I definitely screwed-up (inadvertently converting to Progressive on the fly while capturing).

    I will recapture as Interlaced (big job!). But do you think this could be the source of the major problem I described above (video looks good on computer monitor but way too light and undersaturated on TV)?

    Thank you.
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    You can always open one of the videos in Virtualdub2; filters/levels/sample video/one key frame per second.
    Post the screen shot of the levels histogram
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  21. OK. Back to basics: Are you absolutely certain that you haven't got any dynamic brightness or contrast settings turned on on either the player or the TV? No energy savings settings turned on? Some of the built-in media players can handle different file formats rather differently than you might expect. If you're generating H.264 files do you get the same results on your TV and Player if you mux them as mp4 files as you do if you mux them as, say, mkv files? Do you get different results playing the same files on disc and from a USB drive (or over the network?) Have you tried any of your 'problem' videos on other people's equipment to see if the same differences occur? At least that should tell you if it's definitely a problem with your workflow or a hardware/settings issue with your TV/player combo. I guess you should also check your display settings on the PC, and make sure that the Video brightness & colour settings aren't set to clip at 16 and 235, etc. . .
    "Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
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  22. Originally Posted by TimA-C View Post
    OK. Back to basics: Are you absolutely certain that you haven't got any dynamic brightness or contrast settings turned on on either the player or the TV? . . . If you're generating H.264 files do you get the same results on your TV and Player if you mux them as mp4 files as you do if you mux them as, say, mkv files? Do you get different results playing the same files on disc and from a USB drive (or over the network?) Have you tried any of your 'problem' videos on other people's equipment to see if the same differences occur? . . . I guess you should also check your display settings on the PC, and make sure that the Video brightness & colour settings aren't set to clip at 16 and 235, etc. . .
    ______________________________________

    TimA-C:

    Thank you for your help.

    Although my Sony TV has all the (super-duper) options you mentioned, and many more, I’ve always had them turned off. Another point worth mentioning: Although my TV is not calibrated as precisely as my computer monitor (with a colorimeter since I use Photoshop), I did however use a calibration disc (played on the Oppo Universal Player) for the TV. With that limitation, my TV picture is pretty good.

    ----------------------

    Another key in the puzzle is three-part:

    1) My workflow is: VHS>USB Capture Decice>Edited in Premier Elements>Burned to Folder [thumb drive] or to DVD. The completed video looks good on the computer monitor.

    2) When I copy the video to thumb drive or DVD and play it on my Oppo player into the TV, the video is WAY too bright and undersaturated. . . . BUT . . .

    3) If I connect my computer to the TV (via HDMI) and play my video either off the computer hard drive and a media player such as VLC or Windows Media Player, or if I plug the thumb drive into a USB port on the computer, or place a DVD in the computer DVD player, the picture on the TV screen is good.

    So #2 above is the problem situation.

    ----------------------------

    Now you raise a couple of other good points. I have been capturing as AVI because I read herein that AVI is a tried-and-true standard and good for editing in Adobe Premier Elements. My capture software also allows for capturing in MP-4, and Adobe Premier Elements can edit MP-4s. So I need to try that. Thank you for the suggestion.

    As to your point regarding DVD disc vs. thumb drive, the output is the same on either (as mentioned above).

    I have not tried my videos on other people’s equipment, but since you mention it I shall do so.

    And finally you wrote (and I quote):

    “I guess you should also check your display settings on the PC, and make sure that the Video brightness & colour settings aren't set to clip at 16 and 235, etc. . .”

    To which I respond:

    Ah ha! My Oppo disc player has lots of options, including color space settings. This VideoHelp website has many discussions of the matter of PC standard, Full 0-255 and TV standard, Limited 16-235. And I understand that 0-255 video could be crushed to 16-235, possibly losing detail in the blacks and whites, if one handles these issues incorrectly. Knowing that I will be editing in Adobe Premier Elements (and thus RGB), should I set my CAPTURE software to capture VHS for output as Full 0-255 or Limited 16-235 (it provides for either option)? Do you think this is where I erred and thus the source of the problem discussed in this thread.

    Thanks again.
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  23. I'd check to see how your computer graphics card is set up and set the Oppo the same way . . . ?

    My preference is to work in full 0-255 range as much as possible and adjust your video to fit - to most intents and purposes - within the restricted broadcast range. If there are a few high or low spots outside the 16-235 range - especially on lights or in the sky etc. - then I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Having said all that, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong by some of the others on this thread - many of them are W-A-Y more experienced at this than I am.
    Last edited by TimA-C; 9th Sep 2020 at 16:22. Reason: Clarity
    "Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
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  24. Thank you, TimA-C.

    At this point I am resigned to the fact that I am unable to capture VHS and make an edited DVD video (from each tape) that looks very good on both computer monitor and television.

    Since these are VHS videos are of mostly deceased family members (of which I will soon be one), the only practical course that I can see is the following:

    1) Capture my VHS and edit the digital project file to look very good on computer monitor, then burn DVDs. (Not a problem.)

    2) Make a second project file darker and more saturated than the first. Burn this project file to DVD --- very good for viewing on television.

    3) Since I use DVDs discs that are printable, include on the label of each that the particular disc is optimized for viewing on computer monitor or optimized for viewing on television.

    4) Rather than standard, single-disc DVD cases, use dual-disc DVD boxes and include TWO DVDs for each VHS tape that I am capturing and editing, noting the difference in the two discs. The user/viewer will select the appropriate disc.

    This solution may seem a capitulation, but if I don't do something soon these family VHS tapes will die with me. (After the project is completed, I may try the entire thing again.)

    Again, thank you Mr. TimA-C
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  25. You do NOT need to make two tapes. If you do things right, the video should look good on both the computer and the TV.

    The obvious piece of advice is to create video that looks good on your TV when played from a DVD player. That chain is relatively fixed compared to a computer. The problem with computers is that they can be set to do just about anything, whereas a TV is "hard-wired" to a certain set of standards. That last statement is a little less true now than it was when we all used NTSC (or PAL) CRT TVs, but there are certainly still a lot fewer variables than when playing back on a computer.

    I don't think I know of ANYONE who makes two copies of their videos, one for the computer and one for TV just so the colors and levels will look OK on each.
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  26. Have you tried your discs on somebody else's equipment yet? That should tell you whether you have a problem with your DVD player & TV settings or your PC's graphics settings. Two discs is just idiotic. Sorry.
    "Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
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  27. Member
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    Originally Posted by TimA-C View Post
    Have you tried your discs on somebody else's equipment yet? That should tell you whether you have a problem with your DVD player & TV settings or your PC's graphics settings. Two discs is just idiotic. Sorry.
    This whole thread is idiotic, lets be honest
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  28. jagabo, thank you. I will no longer consider colorimeter monitor calibration as a relevant matter.

    My graphics driver is the built-in Intel graphics. Yes, I can bring up the Graphics Properties and Media Control Panel without problem. And you are also correct that it provides all the slider controls you mentioned. These are all set to the default values. (Unlike some graphics drivers I've seen, there is no selection for "Full" vs. "Limited" RGB [which is the general matter that I am now trying to work on as the possible source of the problem]).

    As I look at my computer monitor, brightness and colors are all very good. My PotPlayer VHS-captured videos, edited in Premier Elements, burned to Video_TS (and/or to DVD or USB thumb drive) played through VLC or Windows Media Player, look very good on my computer monitor.

    I take that DVD or USB thumb drive to my Oppo disc/USB player and play to my Sony TV: Video is too bright and washed out (a hundred test runs, several programs for VHS capture [even including a old Canopus 110 box on an old Firewire computer, many PotPlayer or VirtualDub colorspace output settings ---- all to no good).

    I'll be taking that DVD or USB thumb drive to another person's home tomorrow to view on their DVD player and TV.

    Thank you for the information and your suggestions.
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  29. Download the video in this post:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/374734-Superblacks-and-superwhites-question#post2414529

    When played on your computer or TV it should look like the second (bottom) image in that post. The black background around the dark bars should be as dark as your monitor/TV can get. The black bars from 000 to 015 (the numbers above each dark bar) should be the same shade of black as the background. The white background around the light bars should be as bright at your monitor/TV is currently set to display. The light bars from 235 to 255 (the numbers above the light bars) should all be the same shade of white as background. If the picture on the monitor or TV looks like the first (top) image in the post the device is set up incorrectly.

    The numbers below each bar are the RGB values those bars should have when the video is displayed on the screen. On a computer you can use a tool like CSamp to check those RGB values.

    Keep in mind that most TV's have separate settings for each input. So just because you calibrated one input doesn't mean the other are calibrated too.

    By the way, on the Win10 computer I'm using now the Input Range setting appears at the bottom of the Video section of the Intel Graphics Command Center. You have to scroll the page down to see it. It should be set to "Limited".
    Last edited by jagabo; 13th Sep 2020 at 08:35.
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  30. jagabo:

    Thank you for sending your grayblocks test chart MPG video.

    You Wrote:
    “The black bars from 000 to 015 should be the same shade of black as the background. The white background around the light bars should be as bright at your monitor/TV is currently set to display. The light bars from 235 to 255 should all be the same shade of white as background.” If the picture on the monitor or TV looks like the first (top) image in the post [i.e., all the bars are distinctly visible] the device is set up incorrectly.


    My Response:
    On my computer monitor, the video displays exactly as you described it should. My computer monitor is fully calibrated using a colorimeter (RGB 0-255), so I would assume that the reason your grayblocks video looks exactly as you describe is that you created that video to have an RGB 16-235 range, and my computer did not do anything to expand it to RGB 0-255. (My assumption stems from being a long-time user of Photoshop [color management], as I know essentially nothing about video.)

    So then I copied your grayblocks test video to a thumb drive and played it through my Oppo disc/USB player to one of the HDMI inputs on my Sony LCD TV.

    Important Notes:
    Inside the Oppo “Set-Up” menus is a selection for Video Set-Up. The path is:
    Set-Up > Video Set-Up > HDMI Options > (there are several; I’ll list two):

    1) CUE Correction (stated as “set chroma upsampling error correction mode”)
    - Auto
    - Yes
    - No
    Since I do not know what this means, I selected “No”.

    2) Color Space
    - Auto
    - RGB Video Level
    - RGB PC Level
    - YCbCr 4:4:4
    - YCbCr 4:2:2

    I previously had “Auto” selected.

    (i) I now assume that “RGB Video Level” means the Limited RGB (16-235).
    (ii) I now further assume that “RGB PC Level” means 0-255.
    (iii) Note: For regular Hollywood DVDs and Blurays (which have always looked excellent through the Oppo and on my Sony LCD), the setting was “Auto”.


    Results from Grayblocks Test Video on Oppo Player/Sony TV:

    No matter where/how I had the HDMI Output options set (Auto, RGB Video Level, RGB PC Level, YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2), I could see ALL the bars in the grayblocks video. The black bars from RGB 0 to 15 actually were difficult to distinguish (maybe I was trying to hard); however, the white bars between RGB 235 and 255 were all distinctly different, easily to see.

    Since you stated that “If the picture on the monitor or TV looks like the first (top) image in the post [i.e., all the bars are distinctly visible] the device is set up incorrectly,” which seems to be the case here, I did some further testing.

    (i) I used different TV HDMI inputs (and adjusted each) ---- same result: all white bars and most black bars were visible.

    (ii) I switched from HDMI cable between Oppo player and TV to Component cable (which, one would assume, moots the above listed HDMI Color Space options in the Oppo player). With respect to your grayblocks test video, same result: I could see all the white bars and most of the black bars.


    One further, but possibly important, note: If I connect my computer directly to the Sony TV via HDMI, the video (played through VLC or Windows Media Player), is very good, about the same as when viewed on computer monitor.


    Mr. jagabo, I do not know what to make of all this. Your grayblocks test video would indicate that my computer monitor is set up correctly (normally displays RGB 0-255, but through your grayblocks video it shows RGB 16-235). In contrast, it appears that your grayblocks test video on my TV always displays RGB 0-255, or in any event is displaying the the video incorrectly. I do not possess sufficient knowledge of video to draw firm conclusions, but this certainly seems to implicate my TV set-up as the reason why my VHS-captured then edited videos look good on my computer but too light and washed-out when played on disc or thumb drive to the TV.

    Any suggestions to address the situation described?

    Oh, by the way, I have a computer, strictly for business purposes, not digital imaging or video, that uses built-in Intel graphics and Windows 10 . In experimenting, I found that option in the Intel graphics settings for “Limited” or “Full” RGB.

    Bu contrast, my digital imaging and video computer runs Windows 7. Yes, it too uses Intel built-in graphics, and I scoured every tab and setting in the graphics section; however, there was no simple selection for “Limited” or “Full” RGB.

    Too bad for me!

    Again, thank you very much for the help, no matter my results.
    Last edited by Avagadro1; 13th Sep 2020 at 16:16.
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