I'd check to see how your computer graphics card is set up and set the Oppo the same way . . . ?
My preference is to work in full 0-255 range as much as possible and adjust your video to fit - to most intents and purposes - within the restricted broadcast range. If there are a few high or low spots outside the 16-235 range - especially on lights or in the sky etc. - then I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Having said all that, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong by some of the others on this thread - many of them are W-A-Y more experienced at this than I am.
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Last edited by TimA-C; 9th Sep 2020 at 15:22. Reason: Clarity"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
Thank you, TimA-C.
At this point I am resigned to the fact that I am unable to capture VHS and make an edited DVD video (from each tape) that looks very good on both computer monitor and television.
Since these are VHS videos are of mostly deceased family members (of which I will soon be one), the only practical course that I can see is the following:
1) Capture my VHS and edit the digital project file to look very good on computer monitor, then burn DVDs. (Not a problem.)
2) Make a second project file darker and more saturated than the first. Burn this project file to DVD --- very good for viewing on television.
3) Since I use DVDs discs that are printable, include on the label of each that the particular disc is optimized for viewing on computer monitor or optimized for viewing on television.
4) Rather than standard, single-disc DVD cases, use dual-disc DVD boxes and include TWO DVDs for each VHS tape that I am capturing and editing, noting the difference in the two discs. The user/viewer will select the appropriate disc.
This solution may seem a capitulation, but if I don't do something soon these family VHS tapes will die with me. (After the project is completed, I may try the entire thing again.)
Again, thank you Mr. TimA-C
You do NOT need to make two tapes. If you do things right, the video should look good on both the computer and the TV.
The obvious piece of advice is to create video that looks good on your TV when played from a DVD player. That chain is relatively fixed compared to a computer. The problem with computers is that they can be set to do just about anything, whereas a TV is "hard-wired" to a certain set of standards. That last statement is a little less true now than it was when we all used NTSC (or PAL) CRT TVs, but there are certainly still a lot fewer variables than when playing back on a computer.
I don't think I know of ANYONE who makes two copies of their videos, one for the computer and one for TV just so the colors and levels will look OK on each.
Have you tried your discs on somebody else's equipment yet? That should tell you whether you have a problem with your DVD player & TV settings or your PC's graphics settings. Two discs is just idiotic. Sorry."Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
Last edited by jagabo; 12th Sep 2020 at 21:15.
jagabo, thank you. I will no longer consider colorimeter monitor calibration as a relevant matter.
My graphics driver is the built-in Intel graphics. Yes, I can bring up the Graphics Properties and Media Control Panel without problem. And you are also correct that it provides all the slider controls you mentioned. These are all set to the default values. (Unlike some graphics drivers I've seen, there is no selection for "Full" vs. "Limited" RGB [which is the general matter that I am now trying to work on as the possible source of the problem]).
As I look at my computer monitor, brightness and colors are all very good. My PotPlayer VHS-captured videos, edited in Premier Elements, burned to Video_TS (and/or to DVD or USB thumb drive) played through VLC or Windows Media Player, look very good on my computer monitor.
I take that DVD or USB thumb drive to my Oppo disc/USB player and play to my Sony TV: Video is too bright and washed out (a hundred test runs, several programs for VHS capture [even including a old Canopus 110 box on an old Firewire computer, many PotPlayer or VirtualDub colorspace output settings ---- all to no good).
I'll be taking that DVD or USB thumb drive to another person's home tomorrow to view on their DVD player and TV.
Thank you for the information and your suggestions.
Download the video in this post:
When played on your computer or TV it should look like the second (bottom) image in that post. The black background around the dark bars should be as dark as your monitor/TV can get. The black bars from 000 to 015 (the numbers above each dark bar) should be the same shade of black as the background. The white background around the light bars should be as bright at your monitor/TV is currently set to display. The light bars from 235 to 255 (the numbers above the light bars) should all be the same shade of white as background. If the picture on the monitor or TV looks like the first (top) image in the post the device is set up incorrectly.
The numbers below each bar are the RGB values those bars should have when the video is displayed on the screen. On a computer you can use a tool like CSamp to check those RGB values.
Keep in mind that most TV's have separate settings for each input. So just because you calibrated one input doesn't mean the other are calibrated too.
By the way, on the Win10 computer I'm using now the Input Range setting appears at the bottom of the Video section of the Intel Graphics Command Center. You have to scroll the page down to see it. It should be set to "Limited".
Last edited by jagabo; 13th Sep 2020 at 07:35.
Thank you for sending your grayblocks test chart MPG video.
“The black bars from 000 to 015 should be the same shade of black as the background. The white background around the light bars should be as bright at your monitor/TV is currently set to display. The light bars from 235 to 255 should all be the same shade of white as background.” If the picture on the monitor or TV looks like the first (top) image in the post [i.e., all the bars are distinctly visible] the device is set up incorrectly.
On my computer monitor, the video displays exactly as you described it should. My computer monitor is fully calibrated using a colorimeter (RGB 0-255), so I would assume that the reason your grayblocks video looks exactly as you describe is that you created that video to have an RGB 16-235 range, and my computer did not do anything to expand it to RGB 0-255. (My assumption stems from being a long-time user of Photoshop [color management], as I know essentially nothing about video.)
So then I copied your grayblocks test video to a thumb drive and played it through my Oppo disc/USB player to one of the HDMI inputs on my Sony LCD TV.
Inside the Oppo “Set-Up” menus is a selection for Video Set-Up. The path is:
Set-Up > Video Set-Up > HDMI Options > (there are several; I’ll list two):
1) CUE Correction (stated as “set chroma upsampling error correction mode”)
Since I do not know what this means, I selected “No”.
2) Color Space
- RGB Video Level
- RGB PC Level
- YCbCr 4:4:4
- YCbCr 4:2:2
I previously had “Auto” selected.
(i) I now assume that “RGB Video Level” means the Limited RGB (16-235).
(ii) I now further assume that “RGB PC Level” means 0-255.
(iii) Note: For regular Hollywood DVDs and Blurays (which have always looked excellent through the Oppo and on my Sony LCD), the setting was “Auto”.
Results from Grayblocks Test Video on Oppo Player/Sony TV:
No matter where/how I had the HDMI Output options set (Auto, RGB Video Level, RGB PC Level, YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2), I could see ALL the bars in the grayblocks video. The black bars from RGB 0 to 15 actually were difficult to distinguish (maybe I was trying to hard); however, the white bars between RGB 235 and 255 were all distinctly different, easily to see.
Since you stated that “If the picture on the monitor or TV looks like the first (top) image in the post [i.e., all the bars are distinctly visible] the device is set up incorrectly,” which seems to be the case here, I did some further testing.
(i) I used different TV HDMI inputs (and adjusted each) ---- same result: all white bars and most black bars were visible.
(ii) I switched from HDMI cable between Oppo player and TV to Component cable (which, one would assume, moots the above listed HDMI Color Space options in the Oppo player). With respect to your grayblocks test video, same result: I could see all the white bars and most of the black bars.
One further, but possibly important, note: If I connect my computer directly to the Sony TV via HDMI, the video (played through VLC or Windows Media Player), is very good, about the same as when viewed on computer monitor.
Mr. jagabo, I do not know what to make of all this. Your grayblocks test video would indicate that my computer monitor is set up correctly (normally displays RGB 0-255, but through your grayblocks video it shows RGB 16-235). In contrast, it appears that your grayblocks test video on my TV always displays RGB 0-255, or in any event is displaying the the video incorrectly. I do not possess sufficient knowledge of video to draw firm conclusions, but this certainly seems to implicate my TV set-up as the reason why my VHS-captured then edited videos look good on my computer but too light and washed-out when played on disc or thumb drive to the TV.
Any suggestions to address the situation described?
Oh, by the way, I have a computer, strictly for business purposes, not digital imaging or video, that uses built-in Intel graphics and Windows 10 . In experimenting, I found that option in the Intel graphics settings for “Limited” or “Full” RGB.
Bu contrast, my digital imaging and video computer runs Windows 7. Yes, it too uses Intel built-in graphics, and I scoured every tab and setting in the graphics section; however, there was no simple selection for “Limited” or “Full” RGB.
Too bad for me!
Again, thank you very much for the help, no matter my results.
Last edited by Avagadro1; 13th Sep 2020 at 15:16.
YUV video, as in the MPEG file, normally has the black level at Y=16, and the white level at Y=235, ie, limited range. On conversion for display that 16-235 range is contrast stretched to 0-255 RGB. Any Y values below 16 are "crushed" to RGB=0, and any any Y values over 235 are crushed at RGB=235. That's why you can't see any of the bars below 16, they are all rendered on the screen at RGB=0, and the bars above 235 are all rendered at RGB=255. In my chart the numbers at the top of the bars are the Y values withing the video, the numbers at the bottom of the bars is the expected RGB value that's rendered on the screen.
So your computer is set up correctly. It's performing the expected contrast stretch for limited range YUV to full range RGB. It's your DVD player or TV that's set up incorrectly.
The chroma upsampling error doesn't effect the brightness of the video. It's has to do with the way some player incorrectly upsampled interlaced YUV 4:2:0 chroma to RGB 4:4:4. You can see it described here:
The colorspace control determines whether the player outputs YCbCr (often called YUV) or RGB over the HDMI cable. In the case of YCbCr you can either have the DVD's 4:2:0 chroma upsampled to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling ). In the case of RGB you chose to perform the usual limited range YUV to RGB contrast stretch (what your computer is doing) or not. This is where your problem is occurring. Both of the devices must agree on what's being transmitted. Generally, if you choose to output RGB it should be full range 0-255 and the TV should be set to display that without any further contrast stretch. If you choose to output YCbCr it will be limited range and the TV should do the conversion to full range RGB.
Thank you for your comments. I have to further digest your last paragraph. However, I understand your main point as being that “Both of the devices must agree on what's being transmitted.”
My Sony TV has, for each HDMI input, all the usual picture-adjustment sliders. However, I am not aware of any function on the TV to select among the various YCbrCr (YUV) or RGB colorspaces. If not selectable as such, I assume that the TV automatically determines the input as Full Range 0-255 (and leaves it alone) or Limited Range 16-235 (and converts it to Full Range). Since my Oppo disc player has five HDMI output colorspace options: “RGB Video” (which I assume is Limited Range), RGB PC (which I assume is Full Range), YCbCr 4:4:4; or YCbCr 4:2:2 (you explained that YCbCr is Limited Range), or I can set HDMI Output colorspace to “Auto”, which among these five options would you recommend ---- especially in light of my current situation where the devices are apparently not in concert, and showing it.
Importantly (perhaps), your specific words were: “. . . the TV should be set to display that without any further contrast stretch [emphasis added].” Here, are you here referring to the matter of the TV automatically stretching RGB 16-235 to RGB 0-255, or are you referring to the manual “CONTRAST/PICTURE” adjustment slider applicable to the HDMI input? (If the latter, then I would assume it should be set at 50% and thereafter left alone.)
And finally, if we expand the issue to consider the VHS captured and edited videos, I note that I am capturing using PotPlayer and editing in Adobe Premier Elements. Using PotPlayer for capture, one can choose the output colorspace from MANY options. The ones I recognize by name include YUY2 4:2:2, YUV 4:2:0, RGB-24, RGB-32, but there are many others. And further, PotPlayer's capture colorspace function has a number of "convert" options, such as YUV to Limited RGB or to Full RGB. In light of the entire shebang (a technical term!), including the ultimate destination being DVDs, would you suggest I set PotPlayer’s colorspace capture output to YUY2, RGB-24, and (or not) to convert to Full RGB 0-255 or Limited RGB 16-235?
If you force the player to output full range RGB, and some of your sources have illegal darks and brights, you will not be able to recover them by adjusting the TV's proc amp -- the TV has no way of knowing which of the blacks was originally darker than Y=16, which brights were brighter than Y=235.
Also note that RGB requires more bandwidth than 4:2:2 YCbCr. So long cables, marginal connections, etc. may not work with RGB but do OK with 4:2:2 YCbCr.
Thank you so much. You've been of great help.
Interesting, last evening I took my Oppo disc player to a friend's house for view on her relatively new Samsung TV. Since she had not been using the HDMI inputs, I set them up (i.e., color, brightness, etc.) using both a Hollywood DVD and a test Bluray. This, of course was all in preparation for testing my Oppo disc player and personally made DVDs (which look good on my computer monitor) --- to see if my problem of washed-out video on my Sony TV also occurred on her TV.
Lo and Behold: My homemade DVDs looked good on her TV, perhaps even a bit oversaturated, but NOT at all washed out as when viewed on my Sony TV. I thus conclude that MY OPPO DISC PLAYER IS NOT THE CULPRIT. There must be some other reason that my VHS captures > Editing > Burning to DVD > look very good on computer monitor but are quite washed-out when viewed on my Sony TV. But, as noted, at least I am able to dismiss my Oppo disc player as the at-fault criminal. And I might further add that it would appear that my VHS capture > editing in Premier Elements > burning to DVD has been ok all along (two months of work long). So clearly (well, maybe not so clear) is that, although Hollywood DVDs play beautifully on my Oppo disc player and Sony TV, the issue (whether or not a "fault") occurs only with (1) my homemade DVDs and (2) playing on my Sony TV.
I shall now focus on matters of the Sony TV.
jagabo, again thank you for your input.