Strange behaviour: Terratec Grabster AV 350 MX, Virtualdub

[Jupit0r]

I've been capturing video in the last couple of years with various degrees of success and quality (Windows 7). At least it was good enough for me and it worked.

Recently I had to upgrade to Windows 10 and the knock-off EZCap device broke/stopped working. I tried it on two different computers (desktop and laptop) and could not get it to work.

So then I read here, that Windows 10 in general can be difficult to work with in therms of capturing video and the devices neccesary. So I read some more and came across the Terratec Grabster AV 350 MX - which was a) recommended and b) availabe where I live (Germany). I ordered it (2nd hand), downloaded the Windows 10 driver, set it up and it was recognized right away. Unlike the EZCap, which I could not get to work with whatever drivers I chose.

But this is where it stopped to be fun.
I have two VCRs: a Philips VR1000 and a PANASONIC NV-HS1000 (which doesn't work properly at the moment). I could select the device in VD right away. But this is what it looked like (YT obviously compresses the heck out of it):
Menu screen with strange bars:
https://youtu.be/I2cAc4Wg8Ek which looked like this when video was recorded:
https://youtu.be/5bvztmkLWW0 (no audio on purpose) - quite choppy (look at the moving wall), though no frames were dropped.
The drive of the Panasonic isn't working right now, but this is what the menu looks like: https://youtu.be/E3AvsbGvqN0 (should be standing still, right?)

I used VirtualDub2 44282 to capture, since I could not get any preview/overlay or video input with version 43228 (which I used in the past) or the old VirtualDub 1.9.11.
The Terratec had some Magix software included, which I used to test, but the picture was the same. I even switched the input to SCART, but that didn't help.

Maybe some of you have had similar experiences, or know what's going on here - did I get a faulty device, or is a Windows thing etc. ?
I guess, it's not the VCRs (which I suspected at first).

Thanks!

[davexnet]

Looks like dropped frames. If you're also capturing audio simultaneously,
use uncompressed PCM, try a fast capture codec HuffyUV, UTcodec, Lagarith etc, etc.

[oln]

VCR Menus looking weird over capture cards is not unusual, the signal they output is a usually a bit non-standard which can confuse many capture cards.

The AV 350 MX should be decent, I think it uses similar chips to the oft recommended ATI 600 USB.

There was a win10 update that changed something that broke the video overlay in Virtualdub. It got fixed at one point in virtualdub2, but on versions before that fix the preview can have issues on win10.

Do you get the choppiness on other tapes?

[Jupit0r]

Looks like dropped frames. If you're also capturing audio simultaneously,
use uncompressed PCM, try a fast capture codec HuffyUV, UTcodec, Lagarith etc, etc.

The sample was recorded with no audio, but usually I use uncompressed PCM. Video codec is UTvideo YUV422 BT.601 VCM (see screenshot). Strange thing is also, even if there are dropped frames, the audio is always in sync.

VD is not showing any dropped frames when I capture. But it looks like that, yes. Here's a screencapture of the preview/overlay: https://youtu.be/YnRreZy2X5k

[Jupit0r]

VCR Menus looking weird over capture cards is not unusual, the signal they output is a usually a bit non-standard which can confuse many capture cards.
The AV 350 MX should be decent, I think it uses similar chips to the oft recommended ATI 600 USB.

Yes, that's why I got the AV350. I saw it being recommended here
Regarding the menu: I'm used to it looking fine, so that's where I come from

There was a win10 update that changed something that broke the video overlay in Virtualdub. It got fixed at one point in virtualdub2, but on versions before that fix the preview can have issues on win10.

Do you get the choppiness on other tapes?

ATM I can only get the preview in 44282. Before that I ran an Windows 10 - updated from Windows 7 and it worked. But it had so many other issues, with software not working anymore etc., that I had to do a clean re-install. That's where the problems started on my PC. On the other hand on the laptop, I had a clean install of W10 and could even get the old EZCap to work. But either the computer itself was too slow, or the harddrive couldn't take it - it had major sync issues on most files.

I just checked another tape and it's the same. I know, I'm repeating myself - but I suspect, since the menu is looking weird (that kind of flashing/pulsating), it's translating directly to the video being captured. So, I might eliminate bad cables (tried two SVHS and a SCART), dropped frames (it's already visible in the preview, not just the captured video file).

[88charlie]

I just installed a brand new grabster 350mx on an old but still very decent Alienware 17 running a completely up to date 10 pro.

Preview in Virtualdub (both version 1 and 2) stutters and with PAL settings the info bar shows 21-24 frames, not 25.

Capture to Lagarith confirms that something is off as it has the same stuttering. Log shows a bunch of inserted frames, but no dropped frames.

Both OBS and the Magics? Software from Terratec has the same behaviour and so I bet this is a Win10 thing.

Can anyone confirm this before I go through the hazzle of installing Win 7?

Edit: I found an older post that theorized the problem could be related to previous capture device installations doing “stuff” with directshow. . This could very well be the case and I will test that on another laptop tomorrow.

[dellsam34]

Try AmarecTV it's a lean software, I have slow computers too and vdub never worked for me so I use the pro capture app that came with my device, it's pretty basic and don't use a lot of CPU resources like vdub. I do use vdub2 however for other purposes that don't need real time processing.

[88charlie]

Try AmarecTV it's a lean software, I have slow computers too and vdub never worked for me so I use the pro capture app that came with my device, it's pretty basic and don't use a lot of CPU resources like vdub. I do use vdub2 however for other purposes that don't need real time processing.

This laptop isn’t slow at all. It’s got a 4th gen i7, 16 Gigs of ram and a GTX880 with 8 gigs of ram. Vdub runs off the main SSD and the capture is saved on another SSD.

I also tried the app that came with the grabber and it shows the same stuttering. As does OBS.

It’s as if the video catches up every 1.5-2 second or so. In between everything is ok’ish.

[88charlie]

Today i tested the Grabster on a pretty standard Dell laptop with i5 and SSD and there was still stuttering. That could mean previous device drivers aren’t the cause.

Now I’m installing W7 SP1 on a third Dell laptop equipped with much older hardware (2nd gen i7). Will report back the results when I’m done.

I found @lordsmurf ‘s posts on how his vdub is set up and followed it to the letter.

I have also tried to change various settings but the problem is consistently there. As mentioned above there is even a conatant periodicity to it and my gut feeling is that the cause is OS/USB related.

The analog video hardware works fine using HDMI-converter2capture devices, apart from the crap that that method inflicts on the video quality.

[88charlie]

Just finished installing the old Dell E6420 and with W7 SP1 and using only the drivers available at Dell everything works 100%. No stuttering or dropped/inserted frames.

I noticed the FPS counter went up a few frames and is now idling more properly at 25 +\- 1

Maybe I need to contact Terratec but in the mean time I can at least grab the video they way it should.

[lordsmurf]

What is "stutter" exactly? Sample required.

Lack of TBC is usual cause for dropped frames (a form of "stutter"), and audio sync issues.

My VirtualDub guides has base settings covered. But sometimes more advanced is needed. I shall note to update that guide for more advanced info.

[88charlie]

What is "stutter" exactly? Sample required.

Lack of TBC is usual cause for dropped frames (a form of "stutter"), and audio sync issues.

My VirtualDub guides has base settings covered. But sometimes more advanced is needed. I shall note to update that guide for more advanced info.

The problem disappeared in Windows7 but it was a very regular “catching up” of the stream. Sort of similar to the tiny glitches you can see when playing 60Hz content on a 50Hz TV but more frequent and much much more pronounced.

I’d say the problem is 100 % driver related, but I have to install 10 or 7 again to prove it. Don’t see a reason to do that.

Suffice to say the working laptop running 7 is the “weakest” of the three I tested and so it’s not PC hardware related.

[dellsam34]

I think it's driver related too, As a last ditch try CaptureFlux, It has some learning curve to set it up correctly.

[spyderrp7]

Hi, I just got the Terratec AV 350 MX. Looks like a fantastic capturing device, so far I'm enjoying it.
I tried both the Scart input and the S-Video input. For whatever reason I don't know, the S-Video quality is very bad, I see a lot of artifacts so I'm now only using the Scart capturing method.

But, I seem to have the same stuttering issue you have too. I might try going Windows 7 to check if this could resolve it.

[dellsam34]

SCART will only have composite or S-Video, If you are not using S-Video that means you are using composite, I don't think for a second that composite will look better than S-Video, Unless your VCR is limited to composite only and the adapter is converting from composite to S-Video which leads to a slight degradation. What VCR are you using?

[spyderrp7]

Yes, obviously my VCR can't output S-Video.
Check this screenshot for yourself.
Apart from the color range that seems to be different, look at the hand of the doctor.
Left Image is S-Video and Right Image is Scart (Composite)

[Attachment 57958 - Click to enlarge]

I have tested capturing on Windows 7 and it works! No more stuttering!
Too bad, the second time I tried to capture the VHS I get some glitches from the VCR heads. I just ordered a VHS Wet Cleaning Tape.
My VCR is an LG BC205P.

[dellsam34]

Yes. capture composite if your VCR has only composite, Converting to S-Video or component before capturing will just make things worse.

[oln]

Yeah the VCR needs to support S-Video output for the s-video plug on the scart adapter to work properly, which this vcr wont. On a device that can output it, it has to be set to output s-video over scart manually, as S-Video over scart uses the same wire as composite for one of the channels.

[88charlie]

The grabster is working really nice so far, on Win7.

My current issue is color tuning as the colors using default proc amp settings are a bit off.

I would really love a guide for how to do quick and «good enough» color correction.

Color mill was ok, I guess, but with all the available parameters it is really easy to get lost.

I would guess that the pro’s have a workflow they use to get “on target”, before they do the precision tuning? I mean like, «first try the blue slider, then do red” or whatever, and with a different approach maybe, depending on tape and broadcasting standard (PAL/NTSC). I have seen some posts on the topic but it’s hard to extract what works best for what standard.